And so, without further ado, the first 13 lines:
“There the creature lies,” Caleb said. “For four days I’ve watched him; he does not venture forth during the day. He likely sleeps now. An opportune time to attack.”
“What do you suggest, Caleb?” asked John Carter, a man on his seventh hunt overall, yet only his first this month. Selections were slim these days, each dragon they encountered seemingly younger than the last. So young, in fact, that their bounty was hardly enough to split between the thirteen men, let alone their families.
“Two shall go in, provoke the dragon, draw him out,” Caleb said. “You and I, John, shall be the two. When the dragon comes out, we will ambush him. If possible, try to disable his tail. Next to his fiery breath, it is his greatest weapon.”
“Also,” said John. “If you can, cut his tendons below the calves. It will disable him. But be cautious. Such creatures possess a speed borne of the darkest and deepest hell. They move almost too quickly to see.”
“This doesn’t seem right,” said Thomas, a young man on his first hunt. Truthfully, Caleb would rather have left the boy at home, but the blacksmith he apprenticed for had insisted. “He sits there peacefully, on his own. He has bothered no one, and feeds from forests beyond our farms. He has taken no animals, destroyed no crops, yet we come to destroy him?”
Caleb gave a fatherly chuckle. “Young Thomas,” he said. “It is not that he hasn’t disturbed us, it is the ever-present threat he represents.”
CVG
PS--I've a tendency for info dumps. If you spot any, please, scream and point, like a nerd asking for homework for the weekends.
Not that I'd equate you with nerds, I mean...
PPS--As titles are the bane of my existance--like many of you, I'm sure--any and all suggestions would be welcomed with open arms.
[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited May 23, 2004).]
quote:
“Also,” said John. “If you can, cut his tendons below the calves. It will disable him. But be cautious. Such creatures possess a speed borne of the darkest and deepest hell. They move almost too quickly to see.”
This line reads as though its John talking to Caleb, who seems to be the most experienced of them... at which point John wouldn't be telling him something so blindingly obvious. I assume the idea is that he's saying this for the benefit of the inexperienced people with them, but it would probably seem less odd if you made that clear.
It is much better. The only suggestion I'd make is this: In the following,quote:
Selections were slim these days, each dragon they encountered seemingly younger than the last. So young, in fact, that their bounty was hardly enough to split between the thirteen men, let alone their families.
All in all, it reads as if you've put some time in here. Nice going.
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited May 23, 2004).]
Kidding.
But seriously, no. The only ERB I've ever read was Tarzan of the Apes--it's an excellent book; I wholly recommend it), but if I can be spoken of in the same breath as Edgar Rice Burroughs, I'm honored.
Kolona--I don't want to sound defensive (even though I will; you'll probably see this as me crossing my arms, pouting and saying "You're wrong!" Please don't) but I'm going to disagree with you. This tidbit is from Caleb's POV. At least, it's suppose to be. I did something wrong if that doesn't come across.
But I'll agree with you about the run-on sentence. It flows better your way.
Thanks, though, for the comments. I did put a lot of time into it. It's my baby. And, like any child, I can't wait for it to mature, so I can put boot to heinie and kick it out of my house. 
Any other suggestions?
[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited May 23, 2004).]
quote:
... but if I can be spoken of in the same breath as Edgar Rice Burroughs, I'm honored.
Ah. Well, my point is that the name is probably a distraction for anyone who's familiar with the John Carter of Mars series. I've never even read the series, and I found the name a distraction. That's why I asked if it was intentional. If it's not, and you're not too attached to the name, I'd suggest changing it.
I did kind of jump the gun, huh?
I should have added to change 'seemingly' to 'seemed.' Of course, now we're into weak verbs with 'seemed' period. Well, you could tweak to remove some of the weaker verbs -- maybe instead of 'their bounty was hardly enough to split,' something like 'their bounty seldom sufficient to split.' (With mainly conversation in your posted segment, I can't tell if you have runaway weak verbs. 
)
I'm still not enthused about the anachronistic use of last names. I was previously willing to accept that you might have some reason for opening with a POVless dialogue segment, but having read the story, I found no reason whatsoever for it. Further, I think that you should cast this in Thomas' POV rather than Caleb's, if you get around to putting it in POV.
I also want to say that their mode of speech is excellent. It really gives it an Middle Ages feel.
quote:The caveat is that if you are going for a period feel, and I mean Flash Gordon era not Middle Ages, then I think this helps establish that tone otherwise it gives it a stilted quality. For me that single phrase gives it more of a "Land of the Lost" feel than a Middle Ages sensibility.
...asked John Carter, a man on his seventh hunt overall, yet only his first this month...
quote:
So I'm afraid the entire thing seems like an infodump to me. Since the characters already know all this stuff, the information would be better supplied to the reader in bits and pieces during their thoughts (or Caleb's thoughts, if this is really supposed to be his POV) while they attack it.
This seems like a good idea to me. Thanks, Rick.
CVG
quote:
I'm afraid that, to me, every single thing that John and Caleb say to each other is something the other should already know.
I would suggest setting the scene a little more before the dialogue. OSC has receommended against opening with dialogue, because dialogue is usually more meaningful when we have knowledge of the characters involved. (NOTE: I'm not saying that one should never begin with dialogue, just that the technique has a weakness.)
For example, you could have Caleb look over the men he will be leading in the hunt, assessing them. That way, we know there are some on the hunt with no experience, so it will make sense for Caleb and John to say the things they do.
Still, that leaves you with the problem of killing off the POV character in the first scene (unless you've fundamentally altered the plot). Make Thomas the POV character from the start, he's right there and you already use him as a major POV character in the story.
Now, does anyone want to read the whole thing?
I'm not sure, I think I remember what I read before being pretty much the whole thing...or at least having a resolution at the end.
As I read, I figured that by now, everyone would have repeated the obvious flaws over and over again. Strangely, only rickfisher seems to have done so, and then others came back and disagreed with him.
In my humble opinion, and maybe I'm wrong with so many who didn't see these problems, the entire intro read like a big old fashioned, "As you nkow, John." I don't care if there were newbies in the party or not, you odn't have this discussion outside the dragon's lair, you have it back in the village. In fact, even back in the village it wouldn't have gone like this at all. The more experiences hunters wuold have provided more details, possibly even giving the newbies some rudamentary training. So this conversation, in my opinion, would never have happened at all.
I'm not as hard-core about establishing POV in the first line as some others, but I will admit, this read like omni to me. I think it is mostly due to the dialogue. We have no intimate contact with anyone's mind. In fact, the only non-dialogue segments of this also have the feel of info dumps.
I do like the moral dilemna that the newbie presented. I'm still not sure if it would have happened right outside the dragon's lair, but it gave me a feel for what the rest of the story might be about and I liked that.
I'll go ahead and back up rickfisher's advice...this needs to start with a descriptive action scene. To be honest, I'm not even established in time and place. Are we in a forest? Just outside a cave? That's where I picture dragons but I could be wrong. How did these men arrive? Do they have horses nearby?
When you use third person POV you have a wonderful vehicle for providing information without making it sound like an info dump....the POV character's head. You can tell us all about their prep work...he can be nervous that the newbies might not remember the plan, and thus you can tell us what the plan is (all about the tale and the tendons).
Anyway, I'm trying to be constructive here. Like I said, in light of all the other opinions that did not touch this point,I'm feeling confused. One possible explanation is that i haven't been influenced by previous versions of this story (that I know of) and previous influence can seriously alter the feedback you get on a piece.
As for titles....it depends upon where you're going. If it's got the word "dragon" in the title my husband will probably pick it up.
First off, I'll say again that I'm not enthused over the dialogue based structure of this opening. Or the lack of POV. Or...okay, I've said what I'm not enthused about.
Now for the background...Caleb and John are blowing it out their smokeholes. They don't know jack about hunting dragons. As they proceed to demonstrate in the next scene, which is one important reason that I suggest Thomas be the POV character. Taken in that light, this conversation has remarkable versimilitude. But the lack of any real POV denies the reader a chance to see what is really going on in this scene.
So here's what I'll do: make Thomas the POV character and put this whole speech about an hour in the past, when they're at the village. (I feel kind of like God, at this point, but I digress.) It's Thomas' opinion that John (who I've renamed James 'cuz of the whole ER John Carter thing) and Caleb are a little full of it. This leads into his dilemma, and his conversation with Caleb, which also happened at the village.
I can probably drop the next scene where Caleb 'n' (the now) James are talking about their misfortunes, and how this dragon will keep them well fed for the winter. (Ew. I just read that. Okay, keep them financed for the winter, I suppose.) Give it to Thomas to rationalize his needing to kill this sentient, and in Tom's opinion, somewhat beautiful creature (because he doesn't really want to) and it makes for a decent bit of characterization. It'll also save my word count, probably, which at this point is too high for a short story (8700+).
I like Christine's comment about the rudimentary training. Makes sense. Makes me feel like an idiot, because I didn't think of it first, but it makes sense. It could go in the village scene. The noobs are going through jerky practiced motions, while the more experience give wise-sounding tips.
Sorry. I'm just thinking out loud, a little. Feel free to disagree.
CVG
PS--or rather, thinking out...uh, electronically, I guess. *shrug*
I'm thinking. Let's leave it at that.
I suppose I could change the Carter moniker, but...well, he's a carter. That's what he does. He...carts. Like Smith? And...okay, smith's all I have, but still.
CVG
Those were off the top of my head. Here's a list from a web page ( http://radio.weblogs.com/0122842/stories/2003/08/24/surnames.html ) collecting them:
Abbott
Archer
Ashburner
Baker
Berger
Binder
Bishop
Blocker
Bookbinder
Bowman
Brewer
Bride
Butcher
Canemaker
Carpenter
Carter
Cartman
Cartwright
Chamberlain
Chandler
Churchman
Clark
Collier
Cook
Cooper
Currier
Cutler
Cutter
Deacon
Dean
Doctor
Draper
Drayer
Driver
Farmer
Fisher
Fletcher
Forester
Fowler
Fuller
Gardener
Glazer
Glover
Goldsmith
Grainger
Groom
Hooper
Hopper
Hornblower
Horner
Hunter
Joiner
Jump
King
Lander
Landsman
Leadbeater
Makepeace
Major
Marriner
Mason
Mechanic
Miller
Oliver
Ostler
Palmer?
Parker
Parson
Player
Ploughman
Ploughwright
Plumber
Pope
Porter
Potter
Priest
Prince
Rider
Roper
Sadler
Sawyer
Sayer
Scribner
Sergeant
Severn?
Shepherd
Shoemaker
Singer
Smith
Speaker
Stringer
Stockman
Tanner
Taylor
Teller
Turner
Victor
Wagoner
Walker
Waller
Ward
Warden
Warner
Weaver
Webster?
Wheeler
Wheelwright
Woolman
Wright
Yeoman
I was wondering, for those of you who know the tale, how would you title this work o' mine?
Best I've got is The Dragon Story. That's the working title.
Help!
CVG
1. The Dragon Who Changed
2. In The Dark
3. In The Dark, Dank Cave
4. A Wizard’s Wish
5. A Meeting of the Minds
6. The Dragon Helcorax (or conversely, Helcorax the Dragon)
7. “A Noble Goal,” Said the Dragon
8. The First Step
9. A Play for Peace
And that's all I have. Feel free to contribute. Personally, I'm fond of #3, but I'm open to other options.
CVG