Hatrack River Writers Workshop: The Battle for Caldera

This is topic The Battle for Caldera in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

Chapter One: Vampire.
Defcarr was born in the City of Shadows, which was in the eastern region of Sylvania, opposite of Caldera in the western region. Neighboring west were the Black Mines, where legions of vampires were said to reign. West of the City was nothing but swamplands, with a few dirt roads that humans and elves had carved out over time. Further east Defcarr knew little of; he didn’t travel. He hated moving long distances. Therefore, he knew only that north of the City lay swamplands the same as to the west. And south of the City was ocean. Out in the vast waters somewhere, Defcarr had learned from the sailors that harbored the docks, were large islands containing other evil cities such as Vile and Dysteria, cities filled with monsters of all sorts.

[This message has been edited by Barnett (edited January 19, 2005).]

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

Barnett,

For a lot of reasons, we ask that you only post 13 lines of your work on the board. So, you should edit your post and remove everything past "cities filled with monsters of all sorts."

The upside is that we here on Hatrack have a fondness for all things ninja. You shouldn't have too much trouble getting requests to read more of your story... maybe.

Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

Sorry, I thought that meant give just a beginning sample, so I did. It's editted.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

At this point, nothing's happening yet; I'd rather a story start with the action, or at least some quirk that makes me want an explanation. The quality of the writing is good IMHO, of course.

Posted by HuntGod (Member # 2259) on :

That's only 6 lines? Not sure why HSO said to cut it there.

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

In Word, it's 13 lines in manuscript format. That's why I said that. To the best of my knowledge, it's not supposed to be 13 lines of message board text, but rather 13 in your WP.

Posted by HuntGod (Member # 2259) on :

Oh...oops, I've been violating that rule left and right then :-(

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

Me too. But I use 11 pt text, so I'm pretty sure 13 lines in word is a lot longer on the boards...

*Test- 13 lines in word with indention, 12 pt font*

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

*result- 13 lines in word=11 lines +1 blah*

Oh yeah, and I'm thinking those location names sound a little too familiar. It could just be me...

[This message has been edited by ArCHeR (edited January 21, 2005).]

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

For manuscript format you should use Courier 12 pt, and one of the reasons is so that the editors can tell by looking how much magazine space your story will take. Proportional fonts in particular mess up their calculations. So, with 12 pt Courier and 1" margins (but no paragraph indent), 13 lines will only come out to:

which looks like about 6 and a half forum lines.

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited January 21, 2005).]

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

yeah, and that's about what I see when I try to read a solid block of text like that.

Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

My reason for initially putting more than the maximum number of lines was to get to the point where it, at least from my perspective, started to get interesting. Thanks for the tip on starting on a more interesting note, I can correct that. But if you want to read something more of interest in here, then I need to take a section a page or two later in the story. What was it, 6 lines on here?

He remembered the days when he occupied a complete body, the days when he was a ruthless kind of evil. He sought after knowledge, for knowledge was power, and power ruled over those around him. But now he was different, he no longer felt those evil urges to control. He wanted instead to learn, to gain wisdom, perhaps to make up for the wrong he’d done most of his undead life. Time meant little to him; the years and centuries that had flown by since he’d been born. He was ageless, a being that had lived so long that his deteriorated body had collapsed, making him the first of a new race. He was an immortal living in a mortal world in a timeless time.

Seemed a good place to cut. I'll submit and double check, edit if need be. Oh, what does IMHO stand for? And for the record, I normally use 12 point font.

[This message has been edited by Barnett (edited January 21, 2005).]

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

Just for clarification on the 13 lines:

I copied and pasted Barnett's original post into my manuscript template, and that's how I decided the cutoff. I'm using 12 pt New Courier (a monospaced font, and that's an important difference to note... it uses up more space per line than, say, Arial or Times New Roman), which is the recommended font for manuscripts. My margins are at 1 inch. This resulted in precisely 12 complete lines, with two words appearing on the 13th line. Since a new paragraph started afterward, I said to myself, "Yep. Here's the best place to cutoff."

Right. Enough of that. On to the newest submission:

quote:
Standing out oddly in the miles of grassy plains that surrounded it, the opening of the cave was seven feet in length; he could walk through it flawlessly.

Two points to make about this line. First, Openings are rarely defined by length... I think you probably should use height or width instead, depending on the orientation of the opening. Second, "flawlessly" is an odd choice of wording. Perhaps "easily" would be more suitable.

quote:
It extended underground, as though it had been handmade or even magically made underground first, and then forced upward so that the above ground residents of Sylvania would feel free to explore yonder.

This is an awkward passage, but it's got a nice appeal to it anyway. I would recommend rewording it a bit for clarity's sake. For example:

"Lukas knew the cave extended deep underground. It appeared as if it were dug by hand -- perhaps even magically -- starting first from below and carved upward till it broke the surface, so that the residents of Slyvania would be enticed to explore its depths further."

Or something like that. And yes, this is far more interesting that the earlier submission.

[This message has been edited by HSO (edited January 21, 2005).]

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

Hey! You edited your post and put something completely different there! No fair! Bah! Oh, well.

...

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

Um, rick, I count 8 lines. I think we have different resolutions or something.

Posted by Netstorm2k (Member # 2279) on :

Concur. Eight here, too.

Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

You're seeing 8 lines? I count exactly six, although the 6th is like 3 words long. And yes, I was trying out a couple of different sections to see which looked better on here, the final one I thought looked the best. But for the "no fair" bit:

Lukas peeked over the edge of the small mound of grass, gazing at the mouth of the cave carefully. Standing out oddly in the miles of grassy plains that surrounded it, the opening of the cave was seven feet in length; he could walk through it flawlessly. It extended underground, as though it had been handmade or even magically made underground first, and then forced upward so that the above ground residents of Sylvania would feel free to explore yonder.
Yeah, right, who was that foolish? Lukas grinned to himself, looked left and right to ensure himself that he was indeed alone out here, and then stood up to cross the twenty-foot distance between himself and the cave...

Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

Version of the same with some of the corrections. By the way, I seriously appreciate your comments.

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

It's 6 and a quarter lines on mine. But, in any case, the easiest way to determine the length correctly is as HSO did: 12 pt, Courier font, 1 inch margins, and then copy it here. The number of lines it actually takes here is totally immaterial since, indeed, the resolution and screen size are variable.

IMHO= In My Humble Opinion. I never use that phrase, myself.

Finally, the thing about starting out with something interesting doesn't mean, particularly, that you post the first interesting thing in your book. It means that you make the first thing in your book interesting. You'll find all sorts of disagreement on exactly how important this is, especially in a novel rather than a short story. However, you probably don't want to start with a history or geography lesson, at least not unless that lesson is intrinsically interesting in and of itself. Move on to the point where the character is at least starting to get involved in something of interest, and let us have the info when we need it, and when the POV character has a reason to be thinking of it.

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited January 22, 2005).]

Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

Thank you. This is the type of criticism I was hoping for here. What do you think of fight scenes in novels (it's a novel, probably a long one)? I know it depends on the reader, some have told me that, in Defcarr's case, there's too much fighting. Others have said they thought that was a strong point.

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

If Defcarr is a fighter -- if that is primary function in life, rather -- then it makes sense that he'd be fighting a lot. But if he fights everyone he meets, well, that would be troubling.

Regarding the rewrite: Yonder just doesn't work in this context -- at least to me. Yonder implies distance away from the person viewing, not necessarily depth. Example: Over yonder hills... Exploring the cave is just that, exploration, not yonder. Caves are usually considered by the depth.

Further, "carefully" is misplaced and maybe not even required, since "peeked" could easily be considered a "careful" action. I think what you want is "cautiously" and in the right place, too.

quote:
Lukas peeked over the edge of the small mound of grass, gazing at the mouth of the cave carefully.

Could be (with license): "Prone, Lukas cautiously peeked over a small mound of grass, the mouth of the cave coming into focus: ominous, and yet enticing."

quote:
Standing out oddly in the miles of grassy plains that surrounded it, the opening of the cave was seven feet in height; he could walk through it easily.

This is good. But here again, "standing out" already implies an oddity. Rectifiable as such:

"Standing out, an oddity in the miles of grassy plains that surrounded it, the cave opening was seven feet high; he could easily walk through it since he was a dwarf." (not that he is a dwarf, but you know, I couldn't resist).

quote:
It looked as though it had been handmade or even magically made underground first, and then forced upward so that the above ground residents of Sylvania would feel free to explore yonder.

Other than the yonder bit, this line still troubles me. I think it's the "forced upward" bit. But if you add to the beginning of this that the whole of the cave structure was forced upward, it would clarify your intent. Because I think you're trying to say that it's almost a monolithic thing, just standing there, that would seem to go nowhere if you walked around it, and yet it does go somewhere, mysteriously enough. Am I right?

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :

Ok, my solution to the line problem is that 13 lines in word should be the rule, as word makes it relative to a standard 8.5 X 11 piece of paper, wheras the message board is different for different settings...

Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

"dwarf" lol HSO you silly.
"If Defcarr is a fighter -- if that is primary function in life, rather -- then it makes sense that he'd be fighting a lot. But if he fights everyone he meets, well, that would be troubling."

He is a fighter, it is the primary function in life, but no he doesn't fight everyone he meets. Just most of them. Most often, when he fights, he kills.

Regarding the "yonder" sentence, I agree it wasn't the best choice of words. I was reluctant to use "big" words in describing how Lukas thought because as a character just starting out, I didn't think he'd know enough to know the words.

Defcarr would think like that. Most of the characters in the story would think like that. Lukas is like stuck in high school.

Posted by W. Rought (Member # 2186) on :

I know this is probably late. I had posted this in response to the very first post of this thread and ended up posting it as a new thread instead of a reply.....

_______________________________________________
First off let me say I am usualy straight forward and makes me seem harsh, but I do not mean to be that way.

If this is the begining of the story, somewhere in the limits of what you can post there should be somekind of action OR get the reader introduced to the main character.

I like the discription of the lands but you shouldn't start with it. You can put the discription later OR work bits and peices into the story as it progresses.

Someone once told me when you write a story it should be like standing with a picture touching your nose. As the story goes on it would be like slowly stepping back giving you more and more of the picture.

Just my two cents worth. Hope it helps.
_____________________________________________

Sorry about that but I feel that this should go where it was supposed to even though it is late it may help some. *shrugs*

Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

That's another way to put what the others have been saying, I think. And yet my biggest problem is still seeing a story through. I've got around a hundred pages (on computer) and still not halfway through.

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

quote:
And yet my biggest problem is still seeing a story through.

Does this mean that you don't finish them, that you lose interest before you can get to the end? If so, try narrowing the scope of your story a bit... or create an outline... or any number of things to keep you going.

In any event, keep writing -- even if it's drivel and unnecessary. You can always go back and cut things and make improvements. But a story ends when it ends. Don't look at it as a length thing, instead see at as simply telling the story that needs to be told.

There's a lot more advice that could be given about this subject, but since I'm not really clear what your trouble is, I'm not sure it would be appropriate. Apologies if this isn't in line with what you were saying.

Posted by prayleen525 (Member # 2310) on :

Just a two-cents kind of response to this piece-- I liked the choice of quirky words/images-- "pushed upward" and "yonder" have a lot more flavor than just their concrete meanings of "up from underground" and "far." They're a little rural-sounding, and, at least for me as a reader, the right sort of plain speak for a guy who brooks no nonsense and settles things with his fists.

Just my humble opinion. Hope this Helps (HTH)!
Cindy

Posted by Barnett (Member # 2321) on :

On the right track about the "seeing it through" thing. I've written short stories that start and end well (said by experts to be to long for a magazine and too short for a short story...*sigh* can't win).
I agree that it is a story that needs to be told. And I do keep at it, even with drivel while telling myself I'll go back and fix it later, that the main thing is to get it all written down. One of my problems is that I have a hard time telling when to tell a scene second by second, and when to fast forward through time so that longer periods happen in less paragraphs. And I think that kinda made sense up until the last sentence.