This is topic 3P versus 1P and maybe a better hook? in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


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Posted by keldon02 (Member # 2398) on :
 
See comparison openings for the same story. I tried to answer the critiques, but fear that opening a novel hook is slower than 13 lines.

Third Person

One morning the woman Rain awakened to realize the silence filling her days ached more than numb fingers and empty belly. Over months of famine she had neglected both her mother’s harp and the songs of her ancestors so even her children had forgotten the music just as they were forgetting the face of their father, Snow. Though both sons had inherited her sweet voice and quick fingers the endless quest for sustenance had nearly silenced them as well.

Snow was gone to fight his endless war against Axe folk whose bronze weapons never shattered as did flint. But Rain shut her eyes against his absence and forced it out of her mind recalling his music instead. She could not help but laugh for the first time in nearly a season, remembering his cracked voice and dancing so awkward that even the most romantic songs he sung had turned into silly charades.

Third Person

I awakened to realize the silence which filled my days ached more than my numb fingers and empty belly. Over the months of famine and endless quest for sustenance I had neglected my mother’s harp and the songs of my ancestors. Both were so far abandoned that even my sons (though they still sang in their own babyish way) had forgotten them; the old songs faded just as did memory of the face of their Snow, their father.

Snow was gone to fight his endless war against the Axe folk, whose bronze weapons never shatter as does our flint. I could not bear his absence so instead recalled his music. I laughed to imagine his cracked voice and dancing so awkward that even the most romantic songs turned into silly charades with his attempts.

 


Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :
 
Between the 2, I prefer 3rd person. It's default, and 1P doesn't add anything here.

I still think I would prefer something to happen here. As it is, Rain wakes up, makes an observation, and then we get an info dump. What's the exciting part of the story going to be? What's the real draw? Start there, maybe.

The names Rain and Snow are a little too odd as names, for me, but I'd be willing to stick around a little longer (if I were looking this over in a store) to see if this was just an unimaginative author, or if this tribe has some special relationship with weather that makes these names inevitable.
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
Likewise. If you aren't going to do anything that you can't do with third, then go with it. As it is, your first person version gives even less information without any corresponding benefit.

I still don't feel a lot of confidence in the milieu. Part of that is because you try to state the information up front rather than letting it emerge naturally from the POV. Part of it is still that harp, which is now part of a stone-age culture. I mean, even a reasonable lyre would be a stretch for stone-age work.

If you are going to use the first person, which I think is what you want, really use it right from the start. Make it pull its own weight.
 


Posted by keldon02 (Member # 2398) on :
 
Points taken. Back to the hot keyboard for another week or two.

 
Posted by rcorporon (Member # 2879) on :
 
The harp really destroys the whole vision for me. You mention flint vs. bronze weapons, and use names like Rain, so I am imagining people hanging out in loin cloths and caves, then, BAM, here comes the harp.

When you say harp, I picture the big instrument with about 200 strings, and a woman in a flowing gown strumming it.

Seems to me a clash in timelines.

However, your writing is very nice, and I really like your style. Your description is easy to read and follow.

Hope this helps,
Ronnie
 


Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :
 
I actually prefer the first person - it gives an emotional loading to the piece which the third person doesn't have.

I can see the issue with "harp", but stone age people could certainly have made a kantele-style musical instrument. I'd suggest using Kantele, but it probably has an overly Finnish feel to it.


I'm not utterly hooked, though. I accept the point about a novel needing more than 13 lines, but your first lines just set the current scene. A clue about where the novel is going to head is a good idea; at the moment I have no idea what's going to happen. Where does the story really begin? Does it begin when, for instance, she finds out Snow is not coming back? Or did it, in fact, begin when he left to fight the Axe folk? Start with that trigger, then work on from there.
 


Posted by keldon02 (Member # 2398) on :
 
This may take longer than a couple of weeks to get the starting point right for another presentation. At least the question of 1P versus 3P things seems to resolve itself into two pretty equally sized camps so that is less of a worry. Since I like 1P I'll revert to it, though I wonder about a shifting POV and killing off the first POV character once the setting is established?

It might be easier to start with a conversation about "these damnably stubborn Beaker Folk ... can't seem to catch enough of them to show a profit selling to the Hellenes" before the character is ruthlessly jabbed with a stone tipped spear. But that would invite crucifixion by the tiny minority of anthropology fans just to appease unrest among most everybody else.

Better to go back to working on the action until it stands out as more prominent and the background fades to insignificance.

tchernabyelo, I've never heard of a kantele. I did reject phorminx, kinnor and kithara for much the same reasons I rejected more Hellenic names; I borrowed some customs from other cultures so didn't think it safe to pinpoint a specific region and time or worse yet, throw in a Biblical reference.

Thanks to all! This is really helping.

[This message has been edited by keldon02 (edited September 26, 2005).]
 


Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :
 
Killing off a POV character is risky, unless you have already established more than one POV character.

Killing off a first person POV character is even trickier. People tend to assume that with first person POV, the story is being written/narrated.

This is generally trickier with a dead protagonist, though it can be done (but it helps if you're upfront about it. I believe the phrase "And then I died" is one of the great no-nos of fiction writing).
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
Unless you then narrate how the narrator came back to life. Go with something other than harp, I almost don't care what else you call it.
 
Posted by keldon02 (Member # 2398) on :
 
Yes, it won't be good to kill off the POV character, so I think that part will still be in the form of a retrospective via dialog from a secondary character.

There are world views where death is less limiting than in our own. (The Romans were bewildered that some Gauls they encountered had as little regard for personal death as the Romans had for killing a slave.) I've been working on non-relevence of death a little in this story though I had more of that concept in the first one.

Could you tolerate mention of a nine stringed harp?

[This message has been edited by keldon02 (edited September 28, 2005).]
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
Once you say it has strings, we have a better picture of the instrument, so you don't need to call it a harp. I know that you're thinking of a harp as "any stringed instrument that is played by plucking or strumming" but that isn't what it means.
 
Posted by keldon02 (Member # 2398) on :
 
The real point is that I must tell it so the readers know it is a prehistoric story with a believable harp.

(BTW A harp has a wooden bent neck with strings of varying length, a sound board below rather than behind the strings, a hollowed wooden body, and is plucked by hand.)

[This message has been edited by keldon02 (edited October 01, 2005).]
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
The problem is that it's hard to make a working harp without metal. It isn't impossible, but the fact that the soundboard is directly connected to one end of the strings does impose difficulties that are hard to solve with stone age technology.

That's why the various primitive instruments that predate the harp are usually types of lyre.

Now, if you want to describe the instrument and it's manner of construction at sufficient length to be persuasive (and given that the specifics of its advanced craftsmanship do seem to be an important element in your story one way or another), then you can do that when the time comes. And you can give it a name that suggests the flavor of your culture a little too. I even grant you permission to use apostrophes and stuff in the name you use. Just don't call it a harp, it sounds horribly out of place whether or not the reader has a precise definition of "harp" in mind.
 


Posted by keldon02 (Member # 2398) on :
 
ACK! I think it better to just hold off dissecting the poor harp to death until I get the story up and running. The first true harps predated the story by a couple of thousand years. (No I don't have the original source for the rumors that they were invented in France 15,000 years ago.)

Instrument making probably spread through Asia Minor and Europe via the same trading routes that spread glass beads, split board planks, precious metals, pottery and agricultural technology, all while waves of immigrants were coming in from the East and South and quality of life was waxing and waning. Harps reached Ireland in the 8th century AD, but I never said this was Ireland. Would it help if you thought of the people as copper age (since late neolithic is synonymous with copper age in Southeast Europe and Asia Minor) or Beaker Folk or something other than "The Flintstones"?

BTW, my violin seems to work well with wooden tuners powdered with rosin. No metal is required.

[This message has been edited by keldon02 (edited October 03, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by keldon02 (edited October 03, 2005).]
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
Eh, a violin isn't a harp...but it's still darn hard to make one with stone tools. And it simply isn't realistic to expect your readers to believe you just because you happen to remember having seen some scholarship on the subject back when.

Call it something else. "Harp" will conjure entirely the wrong image and damage the reader's ability to accept your milieu.
 


Posted by Sariel (Member # 2907) on :
 
I liked the first person as well. I felt more willing to invest myself. There are a couple of places I might make a word change for flow, but I think that's purely stylistic.

Initially, the "to harp or not to harp" issue didn't bother me, and really, it still doesn't, and wouldn't if I were browsing this at my local bookstore. This early on in reading a book I usually don't make distinctions like that. But I would probably note in the back of my mind, and sooner or later I'd expect some kind of explanation/exposition to cover the apparent inconsistency.

I'd also wager that if the culture contained skilled flint knappers, they could make flint tools refined enough to fashion a violin. But, could they concieve of the violin?
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
Easily. And it isn't about whether you could make the tools, it's about making the violin using those tools.
 


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