This is topic untitled science-fantasy novel in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


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Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :
 
Ok, I'm taking the plunge and posting my first fragment (gulp!). This is a soft science-fantasy planned as a 3-volume work. It will cover (in two separate timelines) the last 40 years of the MC's life, and the entire span of her life prior to that. Here's the first 13 lines. Please give me whatever feedback comes to mind. I'm not looking for readers beyond the first 13 right now, but if you're hooked, let me know so I can remember for later.

-----
"I found you!” one of the children exclaimed in triumph. “Hey, I found him! He's over here!"

Tai'yin waited in the shadows as the children converged on Qar-a-nam’s hiding place. They piled onto him, knocking him on his back. Tai'yin's stern features softened as she watched her friend play with the same abandon as the youngsters around him. To full grown adults he seemed immense, but in the midst of these children he looked like an absolute giant. Laughing, he struggled to his feet and detached himself from them.

Tai'yin looked at his grass-covered clothing and ruffled hair. “All of these children will need guardians,” she said.

“Don’t look at me like that,” he said. “I make an excellent playmate. A father, that’s something else entirely.”
-----

I didn't want to taint your reading by putting this before my 13: this story is very VERY much Tai'yin's story. Qar-a-nam is her best friend, and he is the most important thing in the universe to her. Before y'all ask: yes, the children (and Q's relationship with them in particular) are important to the story.

[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited November 21, 2005).]
 


Posted by dreadlord (Member # 2913) on :
 
first of, I am having immense trouble sounding out the names of your characters. find names that are easy to pronounce, but exotic. like Yao Ming. seems hard to pronounce, but is actually very easy. Ive been reading Sci-fi tutorials, and names that the reader cannot pronounce tend to alienate the reader from the story. another thing: are the two characters hitched, or are the kids just being watched by the Main Characters?
 
Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :
 
"To full grown adults he seemed immense, but in the midst of these children he looked like an absolute giant" - this doesn't work for me, because "immense" is a more emphatic word than "giant".

Beware of apostrophised names. What does Tai'yin do that Tai Yin or Taiyin don't?

I'm never entirely comfortable with phrases like "Tai'yin's stern features softened", it seems a slightly clumsy way of giving a description to the POV character. Let us learn about Tai'yin's stern features (or habitual expression) another time.

Other than that, no real problems. I'm not hooked (I'm never hooked by an opning involving kids; personal preference) but in a novel, I'm more likely to be looking for a hook on the back cover than the first 13; the first 13 (or the first few pages) are about writing style, and I don't have any real problems with yours as demonstrated here.
 


Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :
 
To answer questions: The MCs are best friends and have been for years, no romance between them. Q is visiting the kids' "class" to play with them, T knew where to find him and has come to get him for something.
 
Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :
 
I agree. The names don't work for me, in a big way. The apostrophes and hyphens aren't natural, and don't flow. It jerks the reader right out of the story and stopped me dead in my tracks each time. Not the first time. EACH time.

Writers usually get really attached to the names they give their characters, but I strongly suggest you revise. Say the names aloud to yourself then go back and write them, sans punctuation, phonetically. Then use THAT as the name.

In the first line you repeat "I found him" twice. No need to do so. Once would be enough.

If they are in a classroom, tell us that immediately. As it is, the venue is too vague. Certainly the entire roll-around-in-the-grass scene doesn't lend itself to painting an image of being in a classroom, so that would confuse me. Is it recess time? If so, you might want to clarify that.

I am asking, why would someone make comments about these kids needing a guardian right there in their presence? It's a sensitive topic; children needing a guardian implies they've lost their parents, been orphaned, or abandoned. It's not casual conversation to have in front of them in the midst of play time. I would expect the adults to go off to the side to have this conversation.
 


Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :
 
For a novel, I think the start is in the wrong place.

Unless the kids are vital to the plot, don't spend so much time on them.

Tal found Q entertaining the kids outside the school. Though a large man by anyone's standard, Q could play hide and sneak with the best fourth graders. Once Q extracted himself from the pile of children...

Get into why the children need guardians before you tell us they need guardians.

The high action approach to the hide and seek game is a bit too trivial for the tone your description tells me about the story you want to tell.

I would start with an opening more focused on your main character or the reader will be slightly thrown when it turns out the MC was the woman standing ont he sidelines of the action.


 


Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :
 
Hehe, sounds like the names need work.

Elan, in the first sentence I have the child saying he/she found "you" to Q, and then turning and saying he/she found "him" to the other children. Should I qualify that to make it more clear?

The setting is outdoors (kinda like recess time) and the MCs actually were apart from the children when they were talking. What your comments tell me is that I didn't do a successful job of conveying that.

Also, in this story, the term 'guardian' is a special one. Obviously, I have introduced the term too soon and without adequate explanation. It is normal in this community for children to be raised in groups or classes until they are somewhat older, when they are each "adopted" by a guardian. So it's not a negative thing, and it would be fine to speak about it among the kids. (The MCs were standing apart for a different reason, which wasn't clear, and evidently added to the confusion.)

Thanks for pointing these things out.
 


Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :
 
Heh. I'm falling into the trap of replying to critiques, even if it isn't to argue. Sorry guys. I'll stop and let you do the talking.

Edited for spelling. (What the heck is a "crique"?)

[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited November 21, 2005).]
 


Posted by Jonny Woopants (Member # 3004) on :
 
For what it's worth, I personally don't see anything wrong with the names of your characters. As a self-confessed sci-fi addict I've read untold books with names that are unpronouncable(all of Iain.M Banks Culture novels spring to mind, as does M.John Harrison's Light) and it's never detracted from my enjoyment of the work providing it was good enough.

Its hard to form an opinion with only these fragments to read, but nothing of great interest jumped out at me. However, the writing's good enough to convince me there's a hook just around the corner, so I would read on.
 


Posted by MG (Member # 2938) on :
 
Grrrrr, I touched something on my keyboard and I lost all the comments I'd been writing

<Sighs> Ok, here I go. *Again*.

Sojoyful, I would continue reading. The first 13 made me ask a ton of questions. Why would these kids need guardians? Where are their parents? Dead? Away? If so, why? And more.

And what really hooked me was the friendship between this girl and the giant-thing-whatever-he is.

However, I had to read the fragment twice to confirm the 'fuzzy' feeling I had after the firt pass: there's no setting. Not two words about it.
I'm not saying you should go on and describe everything, but the smallest reference would do. For instance, when you say 'Tai'yin waited in the shadows as the children converged on Qar-a-nam’s hiding place'. Maybe you could add 'behind a huge tree trunk' and there, I my brain adds the rest and now you have a setting. Not a great one, but I guess you describe it later on in the chapter.

When you need full reads of the first chap, let me know.

MG
 


Posted by BrianJKoch (Member # 2966) on :
 
It hooked my interest.
 
Posted by Shendülféa (Member # 2964) on :
 
I liked the beginning and had no problems with the phrase "Tai'yin's stern features softened..." I also don't have any problems with the punctuation. To me, that makes the name more exotic looking than "Taiyin" or "Tai Yin" and I think that it is all right to have names with apostrophes or whatnot. To me, that may mean that it is a part of the cultures in your novels to spell things like that. If you're just spelling names like that without a real purpose, however, other than that it looks "cooler" that way, then, I'd recommend cutting out the punctuation. Otherwise, I have no problem with leaving it in there.
 
Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
Congratulations on venturing into novel land. It's loads of fune.

You say that the story is very much Tai'yin's, but the POV isn't doing as much to connect me with the character as it could.

For instance, "Tai'yin's stern features softened..." is a POV violation, unless Tai'yin thinks of herself as having stern features. She can't see herself so how does she know they are softening? I'll grant that it's a mild violation, but it still pops me out of the story.

You are also missing an opportunity to tell us how she sees her friend, but instead report on how others see him when you say, "To full grown adults he seemed immense, but in the midst of these children he looked like an absolute giant."

Next, when "Tai'yin looked at his grass-covered clothing and ruffled hair," you don't give us any report of what she thinks when she looks at him. She looks. He says "Don’t look at me like that," but I have no idea what sort of look she gave him because I don't know what she thinks or feels at any moment in the scene. The closest I come to that is the moment when you say that her features softened, but even that is an outside observer's perspective.

And there's no problem with querying your critiquers as you did with Elan, by the way. Everything else, yeah, try to fix our questions in the rewrite. If you answer here then we're tainted readers.
 


Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :
 
sojoyful wrote:
quote:
Edited for spelling. (What the heck is a "crique"?)

Something you get in the necque?


 


Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :
 
tchernabyelo: lol!

Thank you everyone for your feedback. You have no idea how helpful this all is. Whew! I survived my first critiqued work. (For me at least, posting my work is terrifying.) Thanks again, y'all.
 


Posted by AbbeyRoadWriter (Member # 3028) on :
 
i think this is a great start! i have to tell you, tho, i had a name mixup. personally, i think the names are just fine. i'm a fan of apostrophes and dashes in names. for some reason tho, i thought T was the big fella and Q was the female. when you said the story revolved around T, i was excited. then mildly disappointed once i figured it out its a strange fact of fiction writing that people shy away from the big guys for main characters (Except Lee Child's Reacher books). i wonder why that is? the main characters are almost always of normal size with some minor variation and the big guys are the sidekicks.

back to the topic, tho, i think this scene is very revealing, more so of Q's character than T's, but it's nice and simple, with easy action and some natural dialogue. i like the idea of starting with the children. and that first line is perfect. the reason "i found" is repeated is because it's a child. the first exclamation is his/her excitment of discovery, unable to contain him/herself. the next is remembering the game and declaring the triumph and calling the rest of the group. in one short burst you capture youthful dialogue and spirit without patronizing to the character or the reader.

for the most part, you do a very good job of 'showing not telling' but look out for unnecessary adjectives. if T's features soften, do we need to know they were stern? and what does stern look like? try to shy away from any adjectives that cast a judgment. meaning ones that have already been filtered through your minds' eye. don't say someone spoke angrily, show us the form the anger takes. don't say someone smiles attractively, describe those appealing features. make sense?

one last thought. have you considered using a "Watson"? back when i thought Q was the main, i had an idea that it might be interesting to have T become the narrator of Qs story, since she seemed the onlooker type anyeway, in the first person POV (like Watson is to Holmes in the Sherlock books, hence the name). i think this is a vastly underused device, especially in SF/F and would work well here where you have a main character with a very interesting, and likely to be constant, companion. on a whim, i re-wrote these first 13 from Q's POV and i think it's a great way to go.

anyway, if you'd like someone to read more of your work, i'd love to volunteer. it's a great beginning. if you'd like to see my little Watson re-write, i'd be happy to send it to you. my email is in my profile.

Andrew
 


Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :
 
Andrew, thank you for your comments and your offer. I would love to discuss this with you, but I'll take it out of the forum, since that's not the purpose of this thread. I will email you this evening with more comments.
 
Posted by samhaine3 (Member # 3023) on :
 
Nothing for me to say what hadn't been said, 'cept, I would read it. I like characters and I like yours. cya, Sam
 
Posted by AbbeyRoadWriter (Member # 3028) on :
 
finally got off my duff and did the Watson thing. check your email, K
 
Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :
 
The names weren't a problem for me, but I think it's a good guideline to keep in mind when developing characters. I think some people do feel alienated by such names, but I don't think it is universal. As with all rules, it's best to simply be aware of it and know what you risk by playing with it.

I also had a little name confusion concerning who was the big one and who wasn't.

I wasn't hooked, but it's a novel. I'm not looking for a hook in the first thirteen lines-- maybe in the first thirteen pages (but usually more like fifty).
 


Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :
 
Thanks for the additional feedback, folks.

***Just so everyone knows, this is the older of two versions I posted, but it somehow got bumped to the top. The newer version is here, but I've changed openings again since then, so that one isn't official anymore either.

Andrew - I got your email, but no attachment.
 


Posted by AbbeyRoadWriter (Member # 3028) on :
 
i'm computer stupid, sorry. sent it again a day or so ago. get it?
 


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