Hatrack River Writers Workshop: So I'm trying this "Fragments and Feedback" thing for the first time....

This is topic So I'm trying this "Fragments and Feedback" thing for the first time.... in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by I need a good user name (Member # 3812) on :

This is my first time trying this, mind you. As for story set-up, well, there's not much to talk about. This is just something short (the full thing's exactly two pages, single-spaced, one-sided) that I wrote, and as for what it is exactly, well, kind of hard to describe besides "personal musings." Well, here I go I guess....

"How to go for a Walk"

Sure, going for a walk is easy. We’ve been doing it since we’ve been two; it’s one of those events that has Daddy rushing for that new digital camera he bought so that he could record moments just like this. We don’t think much of it; we walk from one place to the next, from sputtering copy machine to bitchy boss, and to rack up those points on the pedometer in some vain yet lazy attempt to look like Tom Cruise or Angelina Jolie. In fact we’ve become so proficient in it that we don’t give it a second thought. People have forgotten that walking is an art form. We just need to open our eyes and see the art that’s there.
So we begin with the proper attire. Whatever stained T-shirt and hole-patched pair of jeans you’re wearing now will do just fine. It’s not like anybody else will care or even bother to do better themselves; as you’ll see, you’ll just be blending in.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

If this is a story, I want to know who MC is, and who the other part of "we" is. If "we" means "people in general," I'd rather it be specific.

I was more interested in Daddy with the digital camera than in the office stuff.

Posted by cll (Member # 3673) on :

Personal Essays are much harder for me to critique than stories.

I think instead of the generic "we's", I'd try to focus on one person- "I". Give us a "character" to care about and relate to.

Also, as the mother of 4 young ones, children usually walk between nine months and 1 1/2 years. Two years would be very late for Daddy going for the camera.

I'm not sure you need the office or Tom Cruise lines. Maybe just go onto step one.

Just my thoughts. I hope this wasn't an unpleasant experience for you.

Posted by thexmedic (Member # 2844) on :

The first paragraph is fairly entertaining, but only as an odd opening. I doubt I could read even 2 pages on the art of walking. If this piece goes in a different direction, I'd clue readers in around the beginning of the 2nd paragraph.

If it doesn't... erm...

Posted by englshmjr18 (Member # 3906) on :

i've decided to make this my conciseness post, so here we go. omitting needless words, this would be something like:

"Sure, walking is easy. We’ve been doing it since we were two, when we sent Daddy rushing for that new digital camera. We don’t think much of it; we walk from sputtering copy machine to bitchy boss, racking up pedometer points so we can look like movie stars. In fact we’ve become so proficient that we've forgotten that walking is an art.

Begin with the proper attire. Whatever you’re wearing now will do just fine. You’ll just be blending in."

because:

1. we haven't been "going for walks" since we were two, we've only been walking

2. the first steps are monumentally important for parents, and if dad has a new digital camera, we can presume he bought it for precisely these occasions.

3. while copying machines and bosses are familiar experiences to quite a few of us, angelina jolie and tom cruise are too specific (and too time-defined) to work in a piece about something everyone does.

4. we've already said we don't think much about it, so why mention that phrase again?

5. a form of art is art. art only comes in forms.

6. once you tell us it's art, we're either going to follow you or not, there's little good to tell us to open our eyes to it.

7. since we're moving into second-person, you can start with a good declaritive sentence.

8. if i don't happen to be wearing a t-shirt and jeans, you're unnecesarily implying i'm excluded, when you seem to want to be inviting.

9. if i'm blending in no matter what i wear, it can only possibly be because everyone else is doing pretty much the same.

10. if i'm just blending in, i will see it whether or not you tell me to.

I've done this elsewhere, but i'll explain it here: i'm not telling you how to write your story. i'm telling you how i would do it, and why, because in the end i think that's what critiquing boils down to. i invite others to do the same when i post.

free advice: in a story starting like this? we'd better get something like "I walk a lot" pretty soon :P

[This message has been edited by englshmjr18 (edited September 22, 2006).]

Posted by wrenbird (Member # 3245) on :

At first I thought the MC was two. The phrase "since we've been two" only works gramatically if the speaker is two. Then MC starts talking about the office and I was thrown.
Also, this seems very contemporary. Is this sci fi or fantasy? If so you need to give some clue that it is within the first few lines.

Posted by I need a good user name (Member # 3812) on :

wrenbird, it's neither really - I suppose this is what they would call "stream of consciousness" or something like that. Really, it's something I wrote when - prepare for this - I was taking a walk. It pretty much more or less describes, true to the facts, what I experienced when I was walking (with personal commentary added, of course).

And englshmjr18, I'm confused by what you're doing - are you trying to rewrite my story for me?

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Perhaps englshmjr18 is trying to share the thoughts that came to mind while reading your 13 lines. That kind of thing can be very helpful to a writer because it gives you an idea of how your work is affecting one reader, at least.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I recognize the taboo on rewriting another's story, but I've been tremendously helped by a suggestion of wording or two (mommiller!). Also sometimes I will want to show someone else how a rearrangement of sentences can convey the same info with the same words more clearly.

Posted by englshmjr18 (Member # 3906) on :

well, no, i'm not trying to rewrite your story, i'm offering a possibility of what your story could be. you could say the things that you were trying to say while using less words to say them. and i tried to explain what i thought, how i got from what you wrote to what i wrote. nothing more than that, take it or leave it. i stand by what i say, but personally, i would advise leaving it

Posted by I need a good user name (Member # 3812) on :

Well, I hate to sound curt, but I would appreciate it that if you were to try and do so to at least request the document as a whole, and for future reference I would appreciate that you refrain from more than minor revisions.

And no offense, but your rewrite/revision of my story was not appreciated.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

It's good to know what kind of feedback people want.

Sometimes writers ask for examples of what critiquers mean when they give feedback, but sometimes they just want to know if people would want to keep reading. (They might also want to know why people wouldn't want to keep reading, but then, again, they might not.)

This is why we ask people to include information about what they are looking for in feedback along with their first 13 lines and along with the information about the rest of the story (length, genre, etc).

Posted by englshmjr18 (Member # 3906) on :

well, gosh, i offered only minor revisions because i really LIKED it, and couldn't give you anything more substantial. i'm sorry i couldn't give you the feedback you were looking for.

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

Wow.

Certainly no one here - englshmjr18 or otherwise - presumes to actually rewrite someone else's story. I use rewrites in critiques when I feel that it will clarify what my comments mean. It is only for the purpose of providing clear and helpful feedback.

Since that is what rewrite examples mean, you are essentially telling us that you want our feedback but you don't want it in the way we feel would most clearly explain what we are trying to say.

We wouldn't presume to tell you how to write your story, yet you presume to tell us how to explain our feedback? Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Not only that, but you rudely reject feedback offered in goodwill. We give feedback essentially out of the goodness of our hearts to help fellow writers, and for no compensation. No one expects you to agree with every piece of feedback, but at least show some gratitude.

You can be sure not to receive rewrites - or any other feedback - from me in the future, since I prefer to offer my limited time to people who appreciate it.

Posted by I need a good user name (Member # 3812) on :

I would like to apologize to englshmjr18, I perhaps was a bit too curt after all. I saw a rather lengthy rewrite of my first 13 lines, and I did not feel that it was appropriate given that the context of the whole story was revealed. I'm not against critiquing or even rewriting, I just did not feel appropriate at what I saw was an action that could potentially change the entire context and feel of the story when the person doing so was not aware of the actual author's intentions as such, and that's why I asked that you refrain from such before you read the whole thing (and really with just this story, especially since I must admit this story is more unusual than what I usually try to write and has a specific, unconventional context). I also see that I did take things too personally (something I'm very prone to do) and I would like for you to consider this a personal apology, and that I do appreciate you expressing interest in my story and that you enjoyed it.

The next thing I have to say is aimed squarely at sojoyful, and is not as amiable. I'll just get to the point - sojoyful, ever since I first started reading your comments, I've never been fond of you. Frankly, if this were a less formal message board, I'd be less careful with my word choice (your imagination is accurate enough to fill in what I really wish to say here). The only other thing I wish to say is that I deeply regret that these boards do not have an "ignore user" feature, and that needless to say that as far as I'm concerned, you or your comments are not appreciated. At all.

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

*shrug*

Noted. Good luck anyway. (<-- not sarcasm)

EDIT: I took your coment seriously. When I screw up, I honestly want to fix it, so I've been looking for my error. Looking back at comments I've made in F&F (and noting that I only gave feedback in one of your threads), I don't see how my feedback differs from anyone else's. If it does, I need you to tell me specifically how and why, so that I don't make the same mistakes again. If it doesn't, then I need some other explanation for this negativity. I don't want to be unwittingly giving offense when it could be corrected. I think that's probably true of everyone here.

[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited September 27, 2006).]

Posted by Ellepepper (Member # 3520) on :

Username...

Something to keep in mind, a rewrite like that only shows you what they THINK the story is about, if theirs doesn't match yours then you have a disconnect and you need to find a way to make their mental picture match theirs. Just some friendly advice, one writer to another.

Posted by englshmjr18 (Member # 3906) on :

accepted, but no apology really neccesary, user name. we're all (wanna be) professionals here. i would hope that we all do the best we can, and then move on to doing if for the next person.