This is topic "Elf King's Tune"(Working title)-Modern Fantasy-10500 words in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.
So, the idea for this story has knocked around my head for years and I finally got around to writing it last summer. I am working on typing out the manuscript, so I don't know a word count yet. Some of you may recognize the characters, as I've written many of their adventures over the years. The dash in one character's name is present because without it Hatrack's profanity filter will remove some of the letters. It's spelled H-a-s-h-i-t-o. Comments on the first 13 are good, would really like someone to read the whole thing. Also, I could really use a New Yorker, or someone familiar with the city, to assist me with this one.
Hashi-to hated making ofudas. Such a tedious process, sitting at his desk, covering little strips of ricepaper with complex calligraphy. It was his least favorite part of being an onmyoji.
At least Tommy was having fun. Beloved paddle-ball put aside for once, Hashi-to’s business partner sat at his desk doing a crossword puzzle, an assortment of cups and mugs layed out in front of him, several ounces of water arching between them under the command of his elemental powers. It was good seeing him work on multitasking and control. The big goofball.
Just as Hashi-to finished an ofuda and set it aside to dry, the bell above the door rang.
“Good afternoon,” Hashi-to began without looking up, “How can we help—Jennifer?”
Version 2
Hashi-to hated making paper talismans. Such a tedious process, covering little strips of ricepaper with complex calligraphy. It was the most irritating part of his onmyodo magic.
At least Tommy was having fun. Beloved paddle-ball put aside for once, Hashi-to’s business partner sat at his desk doing a crossword puzzle, an assortment of cups and mugs layed out in front of him, several ounces of water arching between them under the command of his elemental powers. It was good seeing him work on multitasking and control. The big goofball.
Just as Hashi-to finished an ofuda and set it aside to dry, the bell above the door rang.
“Good afternoon,” Hashi-to began without looking up “How can we help—” he looked up and started. “Jennifer?”
[ January 09, 2019, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: MerlionEmrys ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
Sorry, not interested. You lost me with first paragraph; I have no idea what you're talking about. Nor do I care; I have no reason to.
Phil.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
An individual and a specimen then a visitation of routine interrupted.
The specimen shape's artful development entails a subject observed, responded to, and commented about. The subtle subtext facet of the specimen shape reveals as much or more about the observer's true nature as the subject's. The observer's overt traits are of self-misapprehensions of respectable qualities of the self and the self oblivious to vices and follies of the self, yet vice and folly portrayed anyway for best dramatic effects and reader reception.
Like irony, complication motivation's want-problem developed through congruent vice and folly, virtue and prudence opposites, not conflict's stakes risked polar opposites, per se, and both motivations and stakes attend each the other. Satire there, too, portraits of human vice and folly, virtue and prudence's motivations and stakes realized.
Two personas craft keepsake mementos and impulsive purchase knicknacks embued by and with magic charms, ostensibly. One loathes the craft, the observer; the other, the specimen, is a goof about it, at least to the observations of the former. More subtext, though little, appeal from that contentious facet than any other part of the fragment, due to the barely simmer of introspective persona contentious interaction from the distance of one observes and thinks commentary about the other.
Closer distance and more of a potboiler if subtext appeals developed to show overt non-confrontational contention. Say, Tommy and Hashi-to covertly compete for whose craft, item appeal, revenue, whatever, is superior.
Hashi-to's self-interaction with the self puts the cart and horse wrong way around for satire and subtext appeal's sakes. More appeal if he thinks he's a master and feels sense of pride though his in-scene actions show -- show -- he loathes the work and is a degree incompetent at it.
Reality-imitation show consumes more word count than summary tell unless separate parcels artfully conflated for best close contest and appeal effects.
Then Tommy's goofball is open to reader inference of who's the real goof here, who's the better artist, etc. An authentic fool's surface waters are a transparent, larkish façade yet run deep, impenetrable, swift, somewhat wise, and contrary current vice and virtue. This, then: that Hashi-to and Tommy are realistic and fallible beings, apt vice and folly, virtue and prudence specimens for readers' reception. Hashi-to's commentary then superficially sarcastic yet covertly self-oblivious satire of the self, of Tommy, and backdrop commentary about hypocrisy's vice and folly.
However, self-surrogate idealization of the self's virtue and daydream often wins out over true drama, satire, too, as well event anecdote, setting vignette, or character sketch satire parts and wholes.
True drama and worthwhile prose is all in one: dramatic event, setting, and character -- and satire. Antagonal, causal, tensional vice and folly countered by virtue and prudence event in likewise dramatic setting, of likewise dramatic personas.
Though tremendous stronger and clearer, consistent third-person, close, limited narrative point of view craft and expression, as is, I cannot read further as an engaged reader, due in the main to under-realized antagonism, causality, and tension's dramatic feature and dramatic motion appeals.
[ December 03, 2018, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by EmmaSohan (Member # 10917) on :
Hmm, you're right, my curse is not working. Drats! I should never have substituted cilantro for hair of the hedgehog.
Another typical start, looks fine. I think this might be a millieau start in the MICE category -- you are advertising the creation of an interesting world. I keep reading, but I'm not an interesting-worlds-person and you are giving me too many new words and ideas. I assume that works fine on people who like new worlds.
If I understand the last line, it wasn't clear, the dash not doing all you wanted and the question mark invading its neighbor to the west. Did you mean
“How can we help—" He looked up and startled. "Jennifer?”
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Ooo, thanks Emma, that is definitely a better way of doing that. I tend to write a lot of circumstances that involve people breaking off in mid sentence and then continuing with something and I'm always in the market for new ways to present it.
Extrinsic you are, as often, reading wayyyyy too much into it, especially given that you claim all this satirical subtext whatever-the-heck-you're-on-about still isn't enough to hold your interest. The first version I wrote of this didn't even include Hashi being disdainful of his ofuda-making duties, but I thought it would be a nice little dash of characterization. I get that there isn't enough inciting incident for you, with your current in medias res addiction and all that. I'm really just trying to give a little insight into Hashi and Tommy's personalities and their relationship to each other.
It is a setting/worldbuilding/genre tag heavy opening, but I tried to add in some characteryness and then at the end we have a little inciting incident. Jennifer is in fact Hashi's estranged twin sister. Anybody got any ideas for bringing that into the first 13?
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
I've yet to read any worthwhile prose of whatever category that lacks satire start, throughout, and overall. I've read libraries of prose fraught with satire. Volumes and archives, too, of the most dreary-dead anything else; nonetheless, trace figments of satire therein.
Confident expression borne of doubt, fear, and anger reaches for and attains competence from trial, error, and adjustment. The hardest and least often obtained facet of strongest expression appeal is moral aptitude subtext: satire. Irrespective of if milieu, idea, character, or event foremost, and genre, or whatever. Even mediocre, or worse, commercial prose and circuit court transcripts.
Conflation is a method of little notice though powerful for concision. Lackluster linear order expression averts synthesis' synergetic allness. Synergy expansively and concisiveley synthesizes simultaneous, contemporaneous, and sequential congruent expression by apt conflation.
Libraries to go before I sleep.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
You're using the term satire in a way I'm not sure I'm familiar with, but that's okay as long as you do it calmly. Remember your bloodpressure. You know what happens when you get too excited.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Awake nightmares these are, reminders of the thousands of first- and second-year student compositions I've read, evaluated, indexed, and archived.
Satire: "1 : a literary work holding up human vice and folly to ridicule [and mockery] or scorn 2 : trenchant [keen : sharp] wit, irony, or sarcasm used to discredit vice or folly". Synonyms of "wit" (entry 2, noun): "humor, irony, sarcasm, satire, repartee". "SATIRE applies to writing [any expression media] that exposes or ridicules [immoral] conduct, doctrines, or institutions either by direct criticism or more often through irony, parody, or caricature" (Webster's).
Naturalism's pessimistic nihilism satire, though, mocks, ridicules, scorns, or discredits virtue and prudence, a congruent-opposite irony type that affirms and celebrates the positive polar opposite virtues, an extended litotes. There but for the grace of Providence go I appeal.
Satire categories: Juvenal, Horatio, Menippe; respectively, individual person conduct targets, group entity doctrine targets, social institution-culture targets. Moral aptitude targets overall and, for most adept persuasion occasion, practical irony attends, and a deepest subtext.
Way too much read into what's on the page clear as air?
Observed situational irony's congruent-opposite intent and actuality expressed, of negative commentary that affirms and celebrates the positive opposite, of intended nihilistic sarcasm that discredits, mocks, ridicules, scorns another's virtue and prudence, litotes, and actuality, is Envy's covets of a neighbor's accomplishments, is schadenfreude's amusement obtained therefrom.
Grateful for the amusement and Envy's unintended compliment.
The above expresses Menippean satire about Envy as does the fragment, unintentionally.
My blood pressure is well-managed. Faulty deesis (witness testimony) allusion presumed there. Uncalled-for medical diagnosis posts of members no more permissible than psychoanalysis.
[ December 04, 2018, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
quote:Just as Hashi-to finished an ofuda and set it aside to dry, the bell above the door rang.
Your story begins here. Everything that went before is an info-dump of information you've given the reader no reason to want to see, and for which they have no context. Given that the reader knows nothing about Hashi-to, doesn't know where they are, or what's going on that's meaningful to them, why would they care that someone else they know nothing about is—in the view of the one you're talking about—having fun?
You're providing data, not story. Story happens in real-time, in the viewpoint of the protagonist. Fail that and it's a report, meant to inform, not entertain.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Extrinsic, if I offended you I apologize. Remember, I am a card-carrying Cloud Cuckoolander. I was mostly just babbling and kidding around with you a little. I was suggesting you might have been getting excited in a good, but possibly slightly self-hazardous way (like a lesser version of what would happen to me if I was ever in the same room with Tom Holland. Which would probably lead to a fatal nosebleed.)
Yeah, when I hear satire I think Gulliver's Travels or The Simpsons. I'm still not sure where/how you see satire in this, by any of the definitions you provided. But if you do you do and I'm happy for you (if that's the appropriate response.)
If I'm understanding clearly (and I'm probably not but there we are) you also seem to be seeing some sort of competition or something between Hashi and Tommy and while I suppose you're entitled to see whatever you want to see in my work, that is absolutely not my intention and I think any such notions would get dispelled pretty quickly by the rest of the story (still not even really sure how anyone would get that idea from this fragment.) These two have been living in my head for years and while their relationship has many facets, competition is not one of them, unless you count the fact that Tommy gets a little annoyed when they have to deal with ghosts or other non-corporeal entities as his powers (control of the 4 elements) are generally not very useful against things that cannot be physically harmed or restrained.
I think usually these situations just stem from us using different definitions of the same words and concepts. Such is life.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone else (meaning besides me)that can hear me know what an onmyoji is? And for those of you who don't, what does Hashi using that word to refer to himself, together with what he'd doing, indicate to you in a general sense? I'm asking that you answer this question without your "critquer" or "pseudo-editor" hat on.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Assume I do, and ofuda, and source of "Hashi-to." Would I look up whatever if I didn't know or at least surmised from the context? As I would for any published work's unfamiliar terms, as would any competent editor.
Did I observe above? "Two personas craft keepsake mementos and impulsive purchase knicknacks embued by and with magic charms, ostensibly."
Magic charms, therefore, a magic adept; East Asian masculist sensibilities, therefore, a warrior of aggressive arts; MerlionEmrys' sensibilities, therefore, magic martial arts. Quick investigation before so noted -- confirmed.
[ December 04, 2018, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
I should've been more specific and said "meaning besides me or extrinsic."
I just kind of figure you know whatever. I wasn't impugning your noticing of it or anything...I'm trying to find out another thing and probably make a point.
Who is the other "persona" you seeing making magic charms, out of curiosity?
As far as I know onmyoji aren't martial artists or at least that isn't part of becoming one-they are, in gaming terms more or less "pure casters." "Real life" onmyoji are mainly specialists in divination. They're the ones that kept moving the capitol of Japan in the old days. But yeah you essentially got it right...just missed the point a little, but that's okay. That was my fault.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Ofuda are equivalent to Western, say, horseshoes and such, other less obvious charms, charm bracelets, etc.
Tommy uses his psychokinetic abilities for the puzzle. Magic leaves traces, intentional or not, and of value to consumers of such for it either way.
Especially adept writer-poet warriors leave traces. Recently read a Charles Harper Webb poem, "Big," Shadow Ball, 2009. Satire about materialism and bombarded by and took on more than could be managed. Oh my, big magic.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
He's doing the puzzle normally, he's using his powers on the water. Also he isn't psychokinetic, he can manipulate the four elements (like Crystal or the Avatar, but due to Fairy blood.) I've never considered if his powers would leave traces on an object or not...I don't really think so. Detectable maybe, usable I'm pretty sure not.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Descriptive survey post of satire and many splendors to Open Discussions About Writing coming soon. Maybe contrastive comparison of several options: Swift, "A Modest Proposal," 1729, Edgeworth, "An Essay on the Noble Science of Self-Justification," 1795, Dame Shelley, Wells, Orwell, David Weber, Scalzi, Redshirts, 2013, Farland, Neil Clarke, Gigi McCaffrey, Dragon's Code, 2018, and real-life satire events. Maybe one or so, and for and from an easy-access prose writer perspective.
[ December 04, 2018, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
I thought I made it plain in my response to the fragment: I don't know what a omyoji is and I'm not going to look it up because I just don't care to waste my time.
Phil.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Yeah, that's the first part of my question, which yes you more or less already answered, leaving the second part.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
It didn't indicate anything to me. I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
Phil.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
So, what I was getting at here-and I wanna make it crystal clear I'm not trying to refute anyone's opinions or criticizing anyone, just exploring ideas-is that, while I get what people are saying about an unfamiliar word in the first line, even if you don't know what it means as a reader of a fantasy/sf publication, and for me personally, in a situation like that you can more or less infer/assume that it is some sort of magic thing and I think that for many, that itself raises interest, on the level of wanting to find out exactly what. It tells you something about the setting and the character.
This type of thing (broadly) seems to be pretty common right now. For example, the first book of the Lightbringer series opens up with a character searching a field for "luxin", and the only thing we learn about "luxin" for some time is that it's shiny and salable (and presumably of mystical origin, and of course if you know a little Latin, you can maybe guess it has something to do with light, just as people who know some Japanese culture, especially anime fans, will recognize ofudas and onmyoji.)
I actually dislike how some of the popular authors, like Brent Weeks and Brandon Sanderson, keep you in the dark, largely, about the magic for extended periods. But in this story, for example, you get a pretty good idea of what Hashi's deal is pretty early on.
Again, not disputing anyone's opinions, just throwing stuff out there about different tastes/approaches/viewpoints.
Posted by EmmaSohan (Member # 10917) on :
Hi Merlion. I think you are right. I mean, I don't like that line any more than Phil. But I can see how it would work for readers who like magic and magical things.
Extrinsic: Bring it on.
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
quote:I think that for many, that itself raises interest, on the level of wanting to find out exactly what
Okay, let's explore that:
Jack pushed the zackler out of the way to better observe the notches it had formed in the work.
Are you burning to know what a zackler is? If I later clarify will that retroactively remove the confusion brought by the lack of context? Will there be a second first-impression? Can there be?
When writing fiction, context isn't just important it's everything. The only questions that should form in the reader's mind are those you place there, deliberately, to entice, not confuse.
quote: first book of the Lightbringer series opens up with a character searching a field for "luxin"
Not in the first paragraph or the first page. Brent Weeks begins by orienting the reader as to who they are, where they are, and what's going on—providing context, in other words, so the reader understands the significance of what's happening, and his motivations. And he does that in paragraph one. That's very unlike your opening.
In fact, he talks about a pack of "giant javalines." We don't know what they are, but we have context for why it matters through context, and, because he's concerned enough to have a hand on his knife.
And look at the flow. We open with Kip, the protagonist crawling, in darkness, toward a battlefield. That act, in and of itself, raises questions in the reader's mind—questions the author wants raised, because they're addressed in the next line, which tells us that it was an old battle, and that he well knows the field from having played there. So the question remains: why is he there? And that's obliquely addressed in the next line, in a way that raises a new question in the reader's mind.
This continues, giving the feel of having asked the narrator those questions, and having them addressed, interactively—which is why so many people paid to read the book.
I man no insult by this, but I feel that a bit of digging into such things as motivation/response units, scene and sequel, and other structural issues might be well worth the time invested.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
quote:...while I get what people are saying about an unfamiliar word in the first line...
But I'm afraid you don't.
While the literary niche you inhabit may find this an exciting mystery that you just know the writer will explain to you at the appropriate time, the rest of us don't find it intriguing at all.
What makes it even more difficult to trust in the writer is their pedestrian prose; it neither excites nor engenders trust that all WILL be resolved by the end.
If you're going to break the rules for the sake of artistic integrity, at least make sure you understand the rules you are breaking.
And, what Jay said.
Phil.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
quote: But I'm afraid you don't.
Okay...then if there is something for me to understand beyond what you've already said (that you find an unfamiliar word in the first line offputting, which is an opinion I understand and in some cases may even share) fill me in on what else there is to understand.
All I'm saying is 1) not everyone shares that opinion and 2) even if you don't know exactly what a word means context (such as, just using this as an example, the word being used to refer to a person who is performing a certain type of action) may give you enough of an idea to provide other information about setting/and/or character and/or other stuff.
quote: he rest of us don't find it intriguing at all.
Two out of four of us, in this case
I'm not asking anyone to defend their opinion, just confirming that there is more than one point of view.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
But there is no context. Not one jot or tittle other than your assertion there is one. Just saying it doesn't make it so.
As for "the majority of us", I refer to the mainstream writers, and readers, not niche publishers and those who self publish because no one else will.
Phil.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
The point of Swain's motivation-reaction units, MRUs, is antagonism and causality entrainment. Tension is another, perhaps, more essential feature's nuance for which Swain and Bickham have less appreciation. Or ACT, act out, act up, act dramatically, make a dramatic scene on the page, what drama is: antagonal, causal, and tensional. Tension shortfalls' revelation mark less appreciation of emotional and moral effect and affect, for method analysts, narratives, writers, and readers.
Bickham's "Scene and Sequel," transition sequela ostensibly approaches tension's emotional facet, though little, if any, actual revelation of tension sequela methods and appeals. And a sole double linear sequence of scene and sequel and MRU's cause and effect, misses narrative arts' attendant multidimensional space-time enmeshment, a one-dimensional space-time, two-dimensional, three, and more, seven or so at once. Six distinct spatial and temporal dimensions and one synthesis of the six.
The nondimensional synthesis seventh is a write read at once existential processor and computer: the human brain, that compasses a whole circumstance in an instant's stimuli, thought, and response entrainment, at the velocity of neural conduction, a thirty-thousandth of a second, speed of light, per neural activity for human visual processors.
If a word, or words, "Hashi-to," "ofudas," and "onmyoji," offer little, if any, context and texture relevance for readers, relatable drama, that is, they're done and out in a thirty-thousandth of a second. As is, thirteen lines of roughly one hundred thirty words or so, at average English reader rate of one hundred fifty words per minute, is about one minute of thirty-thousandth of a second eye blinks, neural transmissions, and attendant processor computations, so to speak.
Low-key, if any, relatable drama added to alien words, little, if any, engagement, or rather, alienation of a substantive audience transpires.
A first consideration is use the diminutive familiar register nickname "Hashi" at first, instead of "Hashi-to." Oh, does Hashi appear more familiar a word to readers anyway? Hash is a widely known Western food: fried corned beef and turnips. That instead? Make a Hash of Hashi-to for best reader and dramatic effect? That, too, then affords occasion for later development through other personas' regards for Hashi-to.
Tommy is the diminutive familiar register option of Thomas. Hash, therefore, at first and throughout, the wordplay of everyday, natural life, and potential occasion for metonymy's subliminal appeals. Hash, verb: "1 a : to chop (as meat and potatoes) into small pieces b : CONFUSE, MUDDLE" (Webster's) Sublime appeal occasion from a nickname, plus a foreshadow of drama and theme marker from a nickname. Subliminal appeal for many or most readers; for close readers, exquisite liminal expression appeal; nothing lost on less attentive readers.
Fewer key strokes for writer; one syllable, one eye blink for readers, instead of three. This, too, freights the name with significance. A noun typically entails less significance than a verb, here, though, a verb use for a noun, a name, a simple-present participle gerund, great significance, relevance, and appeal.
"Ofudas" is a greater challenge. Charm is a Western equivalent, likewise noun-verb potential significance, though these are ideogram-inscribed paper strips. True Western analogs are, for example, inspirational bookmarks, Bible tracts, greeting and occasion cards, and devotion cards, maybe thaumaturge and Wicca hedge witch paper charms, cards, bookmarks, etc.
A contrary and at the same time congruent consideration is how much word count is necessary to in-clue ofudas' significance to the dramatic moment, to Hash, to the overall action, for readers' emotional and moral appeal sakes. Hash's action painting one and magic thoughts that imbue it? Dull, lifeless, drama-less. Thus, his perhaps clumsy efforts a sympathy appeal, an urge appeal if he contests with Tommy for who's the greater magician, for pity, slight worry who would win the trivial contest of single combat, and drama's appeal sakes. And enmeshed and entrained multidimensionality developed therefrom. A bridge scene then that transitions and is congruent and relevant to the main action. Transition seques to Jen's routine interruption scene.
"onmyoji," a fully alien word to Westerners and more than a few Easterners, the greater challenge yet. Three in a short succession, too. Does writer intend to alienate a large swath of readers and only appeal to a narrow niche? If apt, okay. Is that apt? How about appeal from different types of alienation and familiarity? The exotic made familiar and the familiar made exotic appeals? Some kind of divination and magic adept, who more or less resembles an astrologer, herbalist, alchemist, scryer, feng shui geomancer, I ching cleromancer, cosmic philosopher -- or similar: cosmology, science, philosophy, and divination.
Narrowed focus, instead of vague and broad classification of onmyoji, for appeal and readers' sakes is a rhetorical strategy, for name exposition arts. Or gradual revelation through event, setting, and character developments that reveal Hash's life vocation. Later occasion for the word use itself.
Say an apt dramatic formal address occasion for title, honorific, and full name? Onmyoji-san Liu Hashi-to?
Meantime, Hash, paper charm, and charm maker, which Hash despises?
[ December 07, 2018, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
quote: "Ofudas" is a greater challenge. Charm is a Western equivalent, likewise noun-verb potential significance, though these are ideogram-inscribed paper strips. True Western analogs are, for example, inspirational bookmarks, Bible tracts, greeting and occasion cards, and devotion cards, maybe thaumaturge and Wicca hedge witch paper charms, cards, bookmarks, etc.
The word "Talisman" is often used in anime dubs and suchlike to refer to ofudas and things like them, especially when they're being used more...aggressively.
As far as real life, you're original comparison to a horseshoe is spot-on as far as how actual Japanese people use ofudas, with the exception that they come in specific varieties to give "good luck" for particular things.
quote:"onmyoji," a fully alien word to Westerners and more than a few Easterners, the greater challenge yet. Three in a short succession, too. Does writer intend to alienate a large swath of readers and only appeal to a narrow niche? If apt, okay. Is that apt? How about appeal from different types of alienation and familiarity? The exotic and the familiar? Some kind of divination and magic adept, who more or less resembles an astrologer, herbalist, alchemist, scryer, feng shui geomancer, I ching cleromancer, cosmic philosopher -- or similar: cosmology, science, and divination.
Narrowed focus, instead of vague and broad classification of onmyoji, for appeal and readers' sakes is a rhetorical strategy, for name exposition arts. Or gradual revelation through event, setting, and character developments that reveal Hash's life vocation. Later occasion for the word use itself.
Say an apt formal address occasion for title, honorific, and full name? Onmyoji-san Hashi-to?
Meantime, Hash, paper charm, and charm maker, which Hash despises?
That's a good idea actually. However, since we are (or leastways I am trying to be) in Hashi's POV, would he not think of/refer to these things and himself with their actual names or terms?
See, it seems to me that, generally, anything you do to "improve" one area, may potentially inhibit or damage another. It all just depends on who is reading.
Because I have a deep-seated loathing of being misunderstood, I'm going to try to clarify a couple of things, then step away from this discussion, which has sadly not gone as I'd hoped, and come work on this opening later after I finish some other stuff.
quote: But there is no context. Not one jot or tittle other than your assertion there is one. Just saying it doesn't make it so.
I was saying, as an aside, that I've read some books lately that go chapters and chapters with little or no context for their magic and it annoys me, but for this story more info on Hashi's magic stuff comes along pretty shortly.
I realize that doesn't relate to the first 13.
quote: As for "the majority of us", I refer to the mainstream writers, and readers, not niche publishers and those who self publish because no one else will.
All I am saying is, most readers I am familiar with, regardless of "stream", would infer from that first line that an "onmyoji" is some sort of magic user and know from that that it is a fantasy story and a little about the character's place in it.
Also, it seems to me that the bit about him hating making the ofudas can't help but provide a little-a little, not a lot-info on the character's personality.
A smaller number, even if they don't know the words, would probably recognize them as Asian.
In no way am I challenging your assertion that you got absolutely nothing from it. I cannot tell you your own mind and wouldn't presume to try. What I do say is that some-and not just some tiny group of freaks-would get a small amountof info on genre, setting, and character from that first line.
That is my experience. It may be stranger than I think, but it is just as valid as your assertion of your own impression of the words.
And that's all I have to say about that, along with thank you everyone for participating in this part of the discussion.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
MerlionEmrys posted: "However, since we are (or leastways I am trying to be) in Hashi's POV, would he not think of/refer to these things and himself with their actual names or terms?"
Why not the actual language he speaks and thinks, too? Impenetrable then for whoever doesn't speak the language. So translation of terms, too, to an audience-familiar language. Hash, charm, charm maker. Apt, timely, judicious dramatic situations occasioned later for the formal nouns' usages and further refinement, from specific enough to more and more specific though within fitted identity parameters; dramatic movement there, too.
The city named Miami is familiar to many, though not the word's etymology, named after an Algic Green Bay nation itself named after a nearby river, a red river, an Algic word, a synecdoche. Miami, familiar though of exotic origins. Red River City? Nope.
Key West, "Key" Modern English variant of Old English quay, same pronunciation, means waterfront bulkheads and skeleton key-like finger docks protrude, a key. Familiar and exotic appeals. Quay West? Nope.
Tortugas, turtles. Caymens, both quay and caiman reptile origins; caimans cluster in water like finger quays. Sierra Nevada, snowy saw range. Masculine-neuter given name Todd, Scottish for a young toddler goat, irrespective of sex. "Toddler" itself . . .
Familiar and exotic, of other than native English origins though loan words aplenty.
A way to reconcile several apparent cognitive contradictions, is to proceed from a reader perspective. What, when, where, how, why do readers need to know, realize, and be persuaded by, that is natural to a viewpoint persona, and necessary at this now moment and further appeals later and later? That Hash is a problematized charm maker, or talisman artisan, etc., cosmic divination magician? The reconciliation and realization fullness of meaning could, might, ought best unfold alongside the drama.
[ December 07, 2018, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
That is a good point. And, I am considering perhaps a more middle ground approach to the sentence, perhaps dropping one of the foreign words and keeping the other. Perhaps another substitution as well-the word onmyodo refers to the specific art practiced by an onmyoji. So I could do something like...
Hashi-to hated making paper talismans. Such a tedious process, sitting at his desk, covering little strips of ricepaper with complex calligraphy. It was the most irritating part of his onmyodo magic.
Weird word moved down, magic specifically refered too.
[ December 07, 2018, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: MerlionEmrys ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
quote: A way to reconcile several apparent cognitive contradictions, is to proceed from a reader perspective.
But which reader? That's the thing. Since I am an avid reader myself, I start with what I would like (plus, I really have no interest in creating things I don't like.) Then I move outward to other readers I know etc...
quote: The reconciliation and realization fullness of meaning could, might, ought best unfold alongside the drama.
Yeah, that's sort of my point.
I think.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
Except the readers you know are, it appears, not representative of the larger group of mainstream readers. Now, if you are trying to reach only that limited sub-set of like-minded readers, that's fine. Just do some of us the courtesy of explaining that first.
I want to add, I find your re-working of the opening an improvement.
Phil.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Reconciliation of many reader audiences, what a target audience favors, and the self favors -- near infinite possibilities. Magic vital presence and pivotal influence yet incidental to a human condition portrait, is one way for this genre type.
"Edges of Ideas: The places where technology and background should come onstage: not the mechanics of a new event, gizmo, or political structure [nor magic, culture, milieu, or world build, etc.], but rather how people’s lives are affected by their new background. Example of excellence: the opening chapters of Orwell’s 1984. (Lewis Shiner)" ("Being a Glossary of Terms Useful in Critiquing Science Fiction," edited by Clarion workshops' David Smith, SFWA hosted.)
Grumpy old guy seconded, the latest version first sentence more apt mischief management of alien terms and artful segment sequence development.
[ December 07, 2018, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
I disagree...or at least, it seems logical that the same could as easily be true of your pool of acquaintances.
Plus which, I have read professionally published works of fiction that do this, and various other things that I have seen people here describe as "against the rules" or anyway as things that are counter to their personal tastes.
Using terminology that a reader may be unfamiliar with early in a story is not some sort of weird fluke as near as I can tell...and the idea that a reader may be able to make some sensible inferences even from unfamiliar terminology is, to me, just a logical assumption.
I completely accept anyone's assertions of their own feelings and experiences. I do not accept people trying to speak for everyone or even "the majority."
And my personal experience is that professionally published genre fiction contains so many different styles voices and story types that nothing much I've ever seen discussed on these forums is going to be some sort of automatic "kiss of death" for "mainstream" publication as many seem to assert.
What am saying is, please, give me your opinions on my work and the reasons behind them. Don't try to speak for all of readerdom or every publisher on the planet, because you cannot.
I don't really believe in a "mainstream" and a "whatever else might not be the mainstream" much. In many, many people's eyes, readers of fantasy/sci fi/horror are already outside of the mainstream...I guess it's possible that the overwhelming majority of readers might stop reading a story because it has a word they don't know in its first line. That idea is more or less incomprehensible to me, but I acknowledge I may be totally wrong.
That being said, only 1 out of three people that read and posted on this did so.
This is really pretty pointless. I'm sorry I attempted to take this discussion the way I did, it was a mistake. Grumpy, I truly do value your thoughts on the whole, just some of the things you say sometimes totally utterly blow my mind. Please don't be offended. You'll probably never believe I'm not just being overly defensive of my own work, but it is in fact that sometimes you say things that I feel compelled to try to understand because it just bakes my brain so badly.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
I am not offended.
Phil.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
quote: Reconciliation of many reader audiences, what a target audience favors, and the self favors -- near infinite possibilities. Magic vital presence and pivotal influence yet incidental to a human condition portrait, is one way for this genre type.
You know, this is interesting. I think that, while I do sometimes "target" some particular "audience" most of the time I try to create what is in my head, and trust it to find an audience...or whatever. Or not.
Said a different way, or perhaps an adjunct thereto, I tend to believe and/or act under the assumption that most readers of the fantastic/speculative genres are, generally, open-minded, with broad tastes and an interest in/desire to learn(about) new ideas/words/cultures. And by extension I figured that, if anything, people who both read AND write such might be even more so.
When I first came here to this place, lo those many ages ago, I discovered that, while true, these things were not as true as I believed/hoped. I think some small part of my consciousness is still in recovery from that disillusionment.
quote: "Edges of Ideas: The places where technology and background should come onstage: not the mechanics of a new event, gizmo, or political structure [nor magic, culture, milieu, or world build, etc.], but rather how people’s lives are affected by their new background.
Interesting. I don't disagree. But, are these things ever really separate? (much the same can be said of many things, like "style" and "substance.")
Anyway, there are concerns I have about, and things I feel to be shortcoming in my own writing that I'm honestly more worried about anyway. But they don't lie in line-by-line wording issues, rather in larger issues of plot and theme and concept that are determined over the course of an entire story, not in one small fragment.
Sadly, we don't seem to have any full readers left around here. And so I wind up trying to vent my difficulties in discussions that they don't really fit into.
I also really need to go do some market-reading, I haven't done that since I got back. Must add that to the to-do list.
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
Something to think about: You're trying to convince people who reacted negatively to the prose that they should have liked it. But in general, you'll not get the chance to explain your intent to a reader. So they either like it enough to commit to reading it (or buying it) before the end of page three—with nothing kicking them out of the story before then—or you fail the audition.
Seems to me that the best course of action is to look at the prose to see if you can sus out what caused a given reader to be kicked out of the story, and comment before the end of page one, and address that so as to increase the likelihood of a given reader liking it.
You can point to other writers who you believe did the same thing but that's irrelevant because this is about your story as it's worded today.
Another thing to take into account: You're not getting "This is what I do," reactions from hopeful writers. You're getting professional opinions from people who have sold their work, and a rephrasing of the views of teachers and publishing pros. It's not a matter of liking or disliking the work. It's not a matter of talent or potential, or even good/bad writing. It's about issues of structure, presentation, and viewpoint—the learned part of writing fiction.
When I put on my manuscript critiqing hat the first thing that hits me is that you are not addressing the three issues a reader needs clarified on on entering any scene: Who am I? Where am I in time and space? What's going on? And because you don't the reader lacks context.
You open with the declaration that Hashi-to hated making ofudas. But who is he, or she? Dunno. Why does he hate it? No clue. What are they? You don't say. So now matter how prettily you may word it, the reader lacks context, and are reaqding words that have no relevance to them as they're read.
But suppose you'd opened with something like: - - - - - - Hashi-to sighed as he put down the brush and flexed cramped fingers, as he surveyed the lettering he'd placed on the ofoda, wishing he could assign the job to someone else. But there were three more amulets to do, so he put the latest one aside, took another paper, and dipped the fude into the ink.
Before he began work he glanced enviously at Tommy's desk, where his partner sat sharpening his multi-asking by levitating water as he worked on a crossword puzzle.
"I hate you, you know," Hashi-to said, as he touched the brush-tip to paper. Tom's response was to launch a single droplet of water toward his forehead. His perfect aim brought a smile, and the thought that his elemental powers were growing. - - - - - It's not your story, or particularly good writing, just a quick parallel situation demo of another approach.
Look at the difference.
• At no time does an off stage narrator explain anything to the reader. Instead, we see the situation through the perceptions of our protagonist.
• We learn not only who is in the scene, and what they are to each other, we know that their relationship, in that scene, is playful. Character development, in other words.
• We don't learn what Tom is doing with the water, specifically, because such visual detail is irrelevant to the plot. The mention serves only to tell the reader that magic is involved. What matters is that he has the ability to focus on two tasks, and the control to toss a single water droplet accurately across the room. That knowledge helps calibrate the reader's expectation of what he might do in a given situation.
• We get context for what's happening before the action takes place. Instead of being told that he's doing something that might be meaningless to the reader, we "watch" him finish the task he's been working on and inspect the result, which says he's careful. Again, character development. That his hand is cramping implies that he's been working for some time. That he's doing it while focusing on something else says it's a minor annoyance. That he wishes he could assign it to someone else says it's his task. Yes, the name, "ofoda" may be meaningless at that point, but the reader knows that it's something that's lettered. Then, when it's called a talsman, they know the purpose. Do they need to know what it looks like at this point? No.
• We learn that Tom's skills have been improving.
We've not learned where they are in time and space, other than in an office. But that's not needed at this point.
Notice that the sequence is a series of clock-ticks. He sighs. He puts the pen down. He surveys the work and approves it. He reacts to having to do them. He reviews his work schedule, and then checks on his partner—and reacts to that.
But of greater importance, the viewpoint, from start to finish is Hashi-to's, not the narrator's.
Hope this clarifies
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
quote:What am saying is, please, give me your opinions on my work and the reasons behind them. Don't try to speak for all of readerdom or every publisher on the planet, because you cannot.
I don't really believe in a "mainstream" and a "whatever else might not be the mainstream" much. In many, many people's eyes, readers of fantasy/sci fi/horror are already outside of the mainstream...I guess it's possible that the overwhelming majority of readers might stop reading a story because it has a word they don't know in its first line. That idea is more or less incomprehensible to me, but I acknowledge I may be totally wrong.
I’m afraid you are so totally wrong. Why are large commercial publishers still in business and I still making bucket-loads of money? Because they have all the demographic information you could possibly wish to have on just what exactly constitutes the mainstream for every writing genre you can possibly imagine, regardless of whether it’s fiction or non-fiction. And, any writer that cares to look outside the little bubble-world of their own conceit acknowledges this and can do the necessary research to find out exactly what sells and what doesn’t. That’s if they care to put in the effort.
Write what you want to write, how you want to write it. After all, it’s your story to tell. Just don’t expect a lot of people to read it. Denying a painful reality just because it doesn’t suit your world view is a vain and pointless pursuit.
Phil.
[ December 08, 2018, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Grumpy old guy ]
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
quote: I’m afraid you are so totally wrong. Why are large commercial publishers still in business and I still making bucket-loads of money? Because they have all the demographic information you could possibly wish to have on just what exactly constitutes the mainstream for every writing genre you can possibly imagine, regardless of whether it’s fiction or non-fiction. And, any writer that cares to look outside the little bubble-world of their own conceit acknowledges this and can do the necessary research to find out exactly what sells and what doesn’t. That’s if they care to put in the effort.
Write what you want to write, how you want to write it. After all, it’s your story to tell. Just don’t expect a lot of people to read it. Denying a painful reality just because it doesn’t suit your world view is a vain and pointless pursuit.
Phil.
I don't think you are aware of it but, at least to me, you are basically saying that your perspective and conclusions are the only valid ones, and anyone who holds a different point of view is a self-deluded moron. You are, as near as I can tell, either unable or unwilling to even give the slightest nod to the very idea that any other perspective may have any shred of validity.
This is in such total opposition to the very foundation of my personality that, while I respect your knowledge and opinions and hope you may still share them, for the sake of the ones that are helpful to my approach to things, I'm not going to attempt anymore conversations with you as it is an apparently pointless exercise in frustration and I do not wish to say or do anything to go against or eclipse the respect I have for your knowledge and perspectives.
I would guess you may respond with something more or less to the effect that they are facts not opinions or perspectives, but that is the very thing-I don't agree, and I don't desire to continue arguing about it.
[ December 08, 2018, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: MerlionEmrys ]
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
MerlionEmrys, is the above post in response to Grumpy old guy's post or to Jay Greenstein's post above it?
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
It was for Grumpy. Although it can apply to any similar.
I'm making a serious effort not to get bogged in pointless arguments, but as you know, it's hard for me. I'm an obsessive-compulsive Sagittarius.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
The human kinship troupe knows a main column, vulnerable center, advance guard, flankers, trailers, scouts out, and overwatch. Outside others are outright rogue solitaires, the least comfortable standpoint in relationship to others, cold embrace of solitude reward. The full rogue as much may benefit the kin group as any other, though may lead to dead ends, trespasses thereof, or innovations and discoveries, or an inert hermit's life.
Prose culture, too. Writer of such full rogue sensibilities is for a similar sentiments audience -- who dare so only vicariously through other rogues' expression. Nell Zink, Mislaid, 2015, about a rogue who fully self-maroons.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
I did not mean to imply you're any type of moron, MerlionEmrys, self-deluded or otherwise. If that's how you saw it, I apologise.
Phil.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
And I accept and appreciate the apology fully. However, I am still going to try to avoid these types of...debates.
To whatever extent I can.
Posted by Jay Greenstein (Member # 10615) on :
quote:I don't think you are aware of it but, at least to me, you are basically saying that your perspective and conclusions are the only valid ones, and anyone who holds a different point of view is a self-deluded moron.
Quite obviously, he is not. What he's saying is that unless you take the time to learn the tricks of the trade, developed over centuries, you're writing for yourself.
Of course, when you read your own words they work. That's because for you, every line is a pointer to images, ideas, and more that live in your mind. But when your reader opens to page one, every line is a pointer to images, ideas, and more that live in your mind.
You can, of course, sell the work, as written and come back and say neener-neener. But as they stand today, and because you're violating all the norms of the publishing industry, as far as opening a scene, an acquiring editor, receiving one of your works as a submission would reject it before the end of page one, for the reasons pretty much everyone has pointed out.
And self-releasing the thing won't help because the prublisher's standards parallel those of a reader, for obvious reasons.
You're in the absurd position where knowledgeable people have given time they didn't have to give you, to help you become a better writer. And your response is to tell them that you know more than they do about writing.
I know you're certain that you're right. But one thing I've learned over the years is that the belief that your view is right has absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy of that belief.
So instead of arguing, do some digging to see what the pros have to say. It certainly can't hurt. Or, prove your views right or wrong in the only meaningful way: submit the work to a publisher.
And that being said I'm out of this discussion.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Consider for further adjustment how onmyoji-diviner Hash might anticipate Jen's abrupt visitation. Perhaps the ofuda he inscribes wards wicked ancestor spirit visitation? Through those explicit details and detailed contentious interaction with Tommy, a portentous visitation premonition for Hash and readers presents. Tension entrains. Then occasion for leisure lavished for the scene and little reason to force and rush to the Jen arrival scene.
Really, "Oh yeah?" A diviner who doesn't divine a substantive personal interruption? Occasion for the shown scene and commentary about psychics genuine and counterfeit. Occasion also for tension setup, an I Ching-like ofuda preparation that, say, causes Hash a revelation of a pendent estranged kin visitation. Glyphs for "sumimasen", excuse me, for example:
す み ま せ ん
Hash baffled by his premonition and its portents. Descriptive only, maybe for a section head epigraph type art title. Here, "excuse me" for a client's commission, for its confrontational connotations. [Harumph,] "Excuse Me" [, rude spirits, you trespass here.]
From revelation to reversal, a scene's most core dramatic movement facets, from peripeteia to anagnorisis (or vice versa or both at once), to Jen's arrival, from tension setup to tension relief delay to tension relief, meantime, Jen's visitation and message itself a tension entrainment sequence.
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
quote: Consider for further adjustment how onmyoji-diviner Hash might anticipate Jen's abrupt visitation. Perhaps the ofuda he inscribes wards wicked ancestor spirit visitation? Through those explicit details and detailed contentious interaction with Tommy, a portentous visitation premonition for Hash and readers presents. Tension entrains. Then occasion for leisure lavished for the scene and little reason to force and rush to the Jen arrival scene.
Really, "Oh yeah?" A diviner who doesn't divine a substantive personal interruption? Occasion for the shown scene and commentary about psychics genuine and counterfeit. Occasion also for tension setup, an I Ching-like ofuda preparation that, say, causes Hash a revelation of a pendent estranged kin visitation. Glyphs for "sumimasen", excuse me, for example:
Ooo, now there's an interesting notion-something I really should have thought of myself. A way to integrate the scene-setting, showing the nature of both characters abilities,and the inciting incident. Sort of, but still has lots of potential.
As I understand it, onmyoji did use the I-Ching. However, I don't really feel I'm up enough on it to use it too heavily and I do sort of want to keep the ofudas as having him making them is also there as a little nod to the trope in movies and anime where people never run out of bullets/talismans/throwing knives/whatever, and you never see them replenishing their supplies, so I kind of wanted to have him doing that.
But, the ofudas could reveal it, or he could even just have a vision. I've never had his powers activate spontaneously before, but there isn't any reason they couldn't, especially in reference to his twin.
Thanks for that, extrinsic, I'll definitely be mulling this idea over...
Posted by MerlionEmrys (Member # 11024) on :
Finished typing this up, desperately searching for readers, also posted second version of first 13.
Really do need to consider above suggestion though.
I have sooooo many manuscripts to type up though. Sigh. Eventually.