Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Shorts or Long'uns

This is topic Shorts or Long'uns in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by JP Carney (Member # 894) on :

Wow, been kind of quiet around here lately. I join and everyone stops talking...hmmm, I wonder... <smirk>

Just thought I'd pose a question, bring up something I've noticed as I peruse the hatrack. Seems like most people here are working on novels, books. Even those who haven't published yet seem to be working on an epic for their first publication. I don't hear as much about people working on short stories for the magazine or literary journal markets.

Is my perception correct? Are many (most) here working on books rather than shorts? If so, why is that? Curious, because I for one am more interested in short stories. Actually thinking that my writing career will be built on it -- though I won't pass up the novel when/if it comes along.

Interested to hear what others have to say about this.

Ciao,

Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :

*raises hand meekly* I write short stories mostly...

Posted by TheUbiquitousMrLovegrove (Member # 390) on :

I've been writing for a more than three years now, and most of the time I was writing short stories. Toward the end of last year, I began conceptulizing and then writing my first novel.

My opinion is this:
Short stories are HARD. Writing a good short story is technically much harder than writing a good novel.

Novels can seem scary at first, but are actually easier to write, it's all how in you approach it. They simply take more time.

My opinion on the matter is, if you are beginning, try writing short stories because writing lots of short stories, even bad ones, eventually begin to improve your skills and give you insight into how good writing works. Once you feel comfortable with your skills, why not go ahead and try a novel? You'll be surprised because the difference is as big a night and day between the to formats.

Posted by JP Carney (Member # 894) on :

TUML, I've heard that before, that you have to be more tight and together in your short story; that the elements of fiction have to work "harder" to be good because there is less time for them to be effective (or something like that).

My angle on this, though, is more from a marketability/publishability stand point. Though it may technically be easier to write a novel than a short story, it seems getting the former published as a first piece is a much bigger hurdle. Now, I don't have anything to go on other than my perception of how the writing world works, so this could be way off. I just feel I'm much more likely to get a short published in a magazine or literary journal as a first hit than I am a novel.

What's your take on this?

Posted by rainsong (Member # 430) on :

Too lazy to add my own comments on this, so I've quoted an extract on the topic from a discussion at Hollylisle.com's Forward Motion Writers, hoping that the poster who wrote this won't mind (I don't think he will)

<quote>
Ahenever I look through the contents of an average issue of Asimov's or Analog or F&SF, all but one or two of the authors are people that I have heard of. That means that these stories *didn't* go through the slushpile, which means that there is only one or two open slots per month for writers like you and me--a few slots for thousands of submissions. Even if you imagine that only a hundred of these submissions are competent enough to get read past the first page, that still means that your well-written story faces 99% odds of rejection--and that's far worse than what you'd find in the novel market.

Another reason why selling novels might be easier than selling short fiction is that, in my experience, most novice writers turn their attention to novels. I have no idea why this is, except that their dreams of being an Author include having a book on the bookshelves. Relatively few of these people attempt short fiction first--and of those who do write short stories, most people don't submit them. So, when someone does get around to submitting a short story for publication, they may be more likely to have already learned something about the craft. This means that slushpile at any magazine has been reduced by self-selection to include (maybe) a slightly higher average quality of work. As such, your competition may be better-qualified in the short fiction market.

All of these are reasons to be optimistic about your novels' chances. However, now's time for the bad news: I've read a number of first novels for critique, and of those, only one was good enough for publication. (That novel was from an award-winning author who has been in the business for years.) Clearly, writing a novel is difficult. A first attempt almost always fails, simply because you're exploring the boundaries of what you can do when you have a hundred thousand words to tell a tale. You should no more expect to sell your first novel than you should to sell your first story--which means that you will likely have to try a second novel before you stand a chance of publication. This might take years. So, while it might be easier to sell a novel in terms of percentages, you might sell a short story in fewer years than it would take you to sell a novel, were you to devote the same amount of time to both.
<quote>

Sums up my opinion on the topic, more or less; however, keep in mind that most established writers broke into the writing market with novels, and that short story writing generally doesn't generate enough income to earn a decent living.

Posted by Danzig (Member # 594) on :

I started out planning to write novels. But then, I kept having a hard time even finishing the outlines. Instead, I am now writing a few short stories based on the world(s) of my novels. Short stories are, in at least one way, easier to write, because the outline can be only a couple of paragraphs. In contrast, the outlines for my novels, when completed, will probably be long enough to be considered short stories themselves. (Well, really crappy ones with almost no characterization.) Also, short stories are less discouraging, because it takes much less time for each draft, because after all, you are dealing with only 5-20 thousand words, instead of 80-100 thousand.

Posted by TheUbiquitousMrLovegrove (Member # 390) on :

All true danzig, and I would submit that the psychological aspect of finishing a short story is a big bonus as to why you should begin you career as a short story writer.

But... If you can write a great story that leaves a great emotion impact on a reader, or makes him/her think about a subject, or can advance a really awesome scientific idea and it's impact on society in 8 to 17 pages, you are far far better than I.

That's why I think in all likelyhood, my first sale will be a novel.

Posted by JK (Member # 654) on :

Well, I couldn't write a short story to save my life. Why? Because I can't help but put in more detail. It's an illness, really. TMCS (Too Much Complexity Syndrome). I think writing a novel is very much more rewarding than a short story, though, because it is a huge achievement. 100,000 words isn't something to laugh at (in a mocking sort of way, that is. Happy laughing is okay.)
JK

Posted by Joyce (Member # 956) on :

I went to a book signing of Kevin Anderson and his wife at a Borders that I frequent. I was standing and talking with a Borders employee who was attending to the writers that I knew well and another man - who I didn't know. Anderson asked for another pen and off my friend ran, leaving me with the man. We continued to chat and turned out he was the publicist for Anderson. He spoke freely with me and gave some good information. His recommendation was to get some credits to your name or you will have a harder time getting an agent to sell a novel. Although it is possible to sell a novel without an agent, it is way more unlikely, or so I've heard. Anyway, this California publicist said to get your shorts into free sources and contests that are legitimate, small presses… anything that will give you a by line. (and, of course paid also when possible!)

Perhaps writing for magazines and small publications isn't such a bad idea and one worth the effort. One can benefit from the effort to follow the guidelines they require. It forces us to write short pieces and the practice has been a good thing for me. I have seen myself improve the content of a tale when I had to cut to stay within a word limit. The practice, if writing precisely and condensed, isn't lost on a novel. A novel is a collection of scenes and the tighter the scene the better the flow and interest to the reader.

I am working on a novel because of what I want to say, who the characters are, what events take place, etc. But, it was shorts that I have sold and it is more shorts that I plan to sell once I start writing seriously again. I want to look into 'contests' but that will come.

It still follows that the more I write, the more I learn. We can and will out write the competition, sooner or later. So, whatever we are writing, the path to publication it there for us. Just keep putting those thoughts down. Keep figuring out scenes and dialogue for your characters in your head. Keep reading and critiquing. Keep going - word by word - , this builds stories and novels.

Posted by kwsni (Member # 970) on :

Short storys are so hard to write because you have to decide what detail is REALLY important to the story, and which you can leave out. And those of us who are extremely wordy have huge problems with that, and we end up writing short stoys that are way too long.

Posted by windamgirl (Member # 981) on :

well, when i workshopped with Scott, he encouraged us all to write books instead of short storied because the short story market is basically nil for any genre, while the novel market is much larger and your manuscript has a better chance of publication

plus, i live with my characters in my head, and letting them go is painful. i get to have them around longer and know them better during a novel. plus, i'm awful about chucking pages. i wrote 17 pages the other day, and my main character went through about half an hour of life. sad, i know.

and one more thing . . . i know sooo much about my characters that it usually takes about three novels to get through the important stuff that happens to them. and, it takes me forever just to give the reader a sense of my world and the rules which apply to it. and i'll stop babbling now.

Posted by Hanrod Brightstar (Member # 656) on :

The more I write the more I find myself leaning to the longer form, though I get more of a thrill writing short stories (51 to date). Short stories are harder, but I find that fact to be beneficial.
I did start writing a novel before I had more than a handful of stories under my belt and it was of the multivolume epic type. It was also the best and worst thing I could have done.
Best because I learned the discipline to do it every day and, because it was often crap, I also learned how to plan/plot/describe/characterise/etc better.
Worst because I'm still trying to knock the stupid thing into shape (unfortunately it has redeeming qualities I cannot ignore).
The novel I wrote next was better in every respect, but still weak. The one after that is pretty good, I reckon, but still needs a bit of zing at the beginning. Of course the next one is going to be better still.
So, to answer, I enjoy both. I've even done quite a bit of nonfiction, just for the experience.

Posted by JP Carney (Member # 894) on :

This has been an interesting discussion. I hope anyone will thoughts will keep sharing. I do want to add this to the mix.

Have any of you tried your hand at flash fiction? Flash fiction, as I've seen it defined, is a "complete" story told in 100 words (I have seen other limits, 250, 500). It has a plot, tension, and resolution.
I've tried my hand at a few, and I find it a great exercise. Obviously you have to be very judicious in word choices and structure. And I've found that often it's not a matter of finding the best word in the thesaurus, but rearranging how you're setting the scene or who's saying what in the dialog, and how's it said. Structure as much as word choice often became important in trimming down a story from 150 words (which is where mine usually start) to 100.

Just wanted to throw that out there. See if any of you have tried your hand at it.

[This message has been edited by JP Carney (edited March 28, 2001).]