Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Another publishing question

This is topic Another publishing question in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by JP Carney (Member # 894) on :

Okay, I am working with a buddy of mine who is a musician, and we're tossing round a spoken word/music idea. My question: If I print the short stories in the CD booklet, what rights have I given up (as I'll assume it is considered published in someone's eyes)?

If I write half a dozen short stories for this, will I still be able to sell them to magazines or anthologies or somesuch at a later date?

This will undoubtedly be a self-produced effort, so I'm not selling the rights to anyone, but I guess I'm using up some rights that I could sell later?

Posted by SiliGurl (Member # 922) on :

While you always retain your copywright rights, I don't think that another publisher will want the stories because they will want to have first publishing rights, and they won't if you publish the stories with the CD. At least, that's what I've read in the Writer's Market. Every magazine or anthology I've looked at specifically state that they want first publication rights.

Posted by JK (Member # 654) on :

I think Sili's right, JP, you would be 'using up' your First Publication Rights by putting those stories in the CD booklet.
But the idea sounds interesting. Is this a moment where you can tell us more, or is it still in a hush-hush genesis period at the moment? I'm eager to know more, it sounds really interesting.
JK

Posted by A_Bear (Member # 1212) on :

I also like the sounds of the idea, and agree with the advice Sili gave. Also, if you like the spoken word/music fusion you may like an artist named John Trudell, his best CD is called Graffiti Man. He is a former AIM activist who perfectly blends his spoken word prose about life on the Reservations of S.D. with a background of great blues / rock. He may be hard to find, but I found him years ago at Borders. Hope this isn't too far off topic...

Arron
Wow, I can NOT type very well.

[This message has been edited by A_Bear (edited July 22, 2001).]

Posted by JP Carney (Member # 894) on :

Well, of those of you who responded, seems there's consensus that I would be using up my first publication rights. Doesn't surprise me, with what I've read on my own and read here on the boards. Guess that's the life of a writer for you.

It leads me to a few follow-up questions. I'm obviously not passing up on this project, so:

a)What if I only read the stories, but don't print them in the CD booklet?

b)Just curious - what would you do? I'm thinking I'll go ahead and print them in the booklet, and just chalk them up to exposure of my work.

c)What if I had already published these stories before? I'm "self-publishing" them in the CD booklet, so what does this mean for the publisher who purchased them first (none of them have been published, this is just a hypothetical)?

d)Couldn't I still submit the stories, explaining how the stories were previously "published" (given they won't likely get wide circulation)?

As for the project, there's nothing really hush-hush about it, but it is in the early stages. Once we flesh it out a bit more, I'll gladly tell you all about it.

[This message has been edited by JP Carney (edited July 22, 2001).]

Posted by A_Bear (Member # 1212) on :

JP...

I recorded a couple of CD's with Round Island records (songwrite and play Bass) and in the contracts I signed, this was the gist as I understood.

1) Even if another group has published your prose, unless you signed off on the copyright, you still have OWNERSHIP of your material.
2) You dont NEED to print the words on the jacket, simply existing on the CD or tape will suffice
3) Once its been released... deep breath... ANYONE can use it. Anyone else can do covers of it, for instence, or put it on their own CD BUT they must give you writing credits AND roalties.

Email me if you have any other questions, I am by no means an entertainment lawyer but I will help as much as I can...

Arron

Posted by rainsong (Member # 430) on :

Everything would probably hinge on how wide the circulation of your stories were. Under 5000 would probably be acceptable--maybe even 10000, but you'd have to ask a professional writer to check.

Remember, posting on the Internet gives away first [i]worldwide[/] electronic rights. That's a lot of rights to give away. If the Cds remain within your state, it's only the use of state (audio? serial?) rights, and most pro magazines but North American rights?

Posted by rainsong (Member # 430) on :

Double post

[This message has been edited by rainsong (edited July 24, 2001).]

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

Hmm--seems you are missing a very important point here--if the words are on the CD, they are already published. So, why the obsession with the "written" words? Many times people confuse the issue of what written is. Written means you wrote it. It does not just singularly refer to it being written down. Many people will argue that the Internet is not real publishing because it is not written down.

The same here. If the words are on the CD, being read and sold to be listen to--then they are published. Publishing houses (with the advent of books on tape) also buy audio rights. So you are using up those rights. If you print out the words on the CD cover I would worry very little about those rights, as they are part of the CD that is already using up the rights---so to speak.

Now---on to something else I think you are missing. The whole venture falls under the category of self-published. You retain the rights because you have not "sold" them to anyone, nor have you given them away, except to yourself as the publisher. Posting on the Internet falls into a non-defined category that is still looking for its hold and definition. So, publishers are staying away from it and defining it in a zillion different directions.

Self-publishing on the other hand has been around for ages. Sometimes self-published work is picked up by a major publisher, if it shows the potential and promise of a best seller. (The Christmas Box, for example).

The rights are yours, because you are the publisher. Now whether a publisher wants to pick up a self-published piece is up to that publisher.

SRHowen
Assistant Editor
Wild Child Publishing

Posted by JP Carney (Member # 894) on :

Srhowen, your point about the spoken words on the CD making the pieces published regardless of printing them on the CD booklet is well taken. I'm not sure, however, I understand your point about self-publishing. I understand that I retain the rights of my piece, I haven't sold anything to anyone. But I have, technically speaking, "used up" the first publication rights...right? Okay, let me ask this a different way...

Scenario 1: I don't print the stories into the CD booklet. The stories are published because they are <grin>, because I've read them onto the CD. I've in essence "given up" my first audio rights. And, I assume, first publication rights? So, if I wanted to sell the stories again, I'd have to make it clear to the publisher that they are previously published in audio format on a self-published CD? And if that's okay with them, then they're buying.....second rights? At a supposedly cheaper rate?

Scenario 2: I print the stories in the CD booklet. To me this is more clear cut, because they're published by the fact that a) I read them onto the CD and b) they're printed in the booklet. This scenario I am definitely selling second publish rights to a future publisher.

My confusion is with Scenario 1, and is the crux of my question. If my stories are "published" just on the CD (no booklet) does that automatically remove first rights as an option to another publisher (it obviously removes first audio rights). Or do I have to actually print them to "lose" first rights? If it's the later, then I will consider strongly not printing them in the booklet.

Just to clarify, I understand I have all the rights, and that my work is copyrighted as soon as it's "created". I also understand that I still (technically) have all the rights to my stories because I would be the (self)publisher and haven't sold any rights to anyone. But I'm concerned about reselling them (or not) at a later date.

[This message has been edited by JP Carney (edited July 24, 2001).]

Posted by A_Bear (Member # 1212) on :

Heres a question for ya... If I write a a short story and it is published, then later on (say, six months...) I revamp the story, add some characters and conflict, etc etc, and turn it into a novel or such, is that republishing?

Arron

ps- I should probably worry about actually getting published first, but hey!

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

IN that case you sell the novel as being based on my short story already published by---it is not second rights since it is not the same story.

As to the CD question--it is myy thought that once the words are on the CD (not the cover) that the first rights have been used---simply by them being read on the CD--books on tape work that way. But becasue it is a self published effort (now to explain this) you own the copyright but because you also own the first rights as the pubisher, you still in effect have them to sell. Make sense? Not really. Self published work is looked at a bit differently and it can go against you as if you had sold the first rights to a publisher other than yourself--but if you sell enough of the CD then a publisher may be willing to look at it as a serious effort.

IMHO anyway--I have not worked much with the audio rights issue or the self publishing side of what your rights are. I sent out a few e-mails about this and am waiting to hear back.

I'll let you know what they tell me.

Shawn

Posted by A_Bear (Member # 1212) on :

Thank You, srhowen, your advice has helped a lot!

Arron