Chris.
PS--Also, which two or three books would you keep around for references (save the two most important, the dictionary and thesaurus, of course)
The Complete Guide to Editing Your Ficiton, Random House Word Menu, and English Grammar for Dummies.
Shawn
F -- Tad Williams, Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn. A trilogy comprising The Dragonbone Chair, The Stone of Farewell, and To Green Angel Tower. I think it's the best post-Tolkien fantasy out there, and best of all: it's finished!
Don't forget to read literature: Graham Greene, Brighton Rock -- just started it, and it's very good so far.
As far as reference books, the one book I've been turning to a lot lately is John Gardner's The Art of Fiction. I'd also recommend his On Becomming a Novelist. The Writer's Digest Character Naming Sourcebook is also very helpful.
PS -- Don't forget to check out my Hugo and Nebula Award Winners post. (I'll update it for easy access.) I put it up there precisely to answer your question.
[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited May 12, 2003).]
Ni!
I'd also recommend the Year's Best Fantasy and Horror collections by Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow, because the stories are top-notch and I've found lately that reading short stories seems to fit better into a busy schedule.
Also, any book by Bradbury is a good read for SF, as is Dune and its series
I can't think of any other ones not mentioned above off the top of my head...
Besides OSC’s two that have already been mentioned, I also got a lot of good out of Nancy Kress’s Beginnings, Middles, and Ends.
Fiction:
Connie Willis – Passage and To Say Nothing of the Dog are at the top of my favorite list.
For reference: On Writing (Stephen King) and The Describer's Dictionary (David Grambs). The latter in paricular is great if you're wrestling with "detail block."
ALSO, I've found myself jotting down particular phrases or words from my fiction reading that really grab me... or are unique twists on a common phrase.
She has great dialog, and puts her stories together well. Technically what she writes is space opera.
Ditto for Eddings - the Belgariad was excellent, Polgara the Sorceress fascinating, and anything beyond that just plain tiring.
What sort of books do you enjoy, Chris? It might be easier to recommend books to you we had some idea of your reading tastes.
Chris
PS--Thanks for all the input, guys. I should be kept busy for a while reading all those books.
Also, I would recommend anything by Kage Baker. Her series of novels and short stories, based on an entity she calls the Company, centers on time travel and immortality. I don't have the time or inclination to reread many books, but I've read all of her novels more than once. The novels, in order, are In the Garden of Iden, Sky Coyote, Mendoza in Hollywood, and The Graveyard Game. I'm blanking on the title of the most recent book, a series of loosely related short stories, right now, as I've only read it once. I guess that means that it's time to find it in the library and read it again. Anyway, she writes with passion and humor. I especially like the ongoing film festival in Mendoza in Hollywood; you'll have to read it to find out what I'm talking about.
Edit: to correct tortured grammar. And again, because I managed to torture it even more in the correction. Oh, well. I guess I'm having a bad grammar day.
[This message has been edited by littlemissattitude (edited May 15, 2003).]
[This message has been edited by littlemissattitude (edited May 15, 2003).]
Thanks again,
Chris
Chris.
It has names from all over the world, and it's written for writers.
I'll dig into the piles asap and post the information here.
(It's a little expensive (over $70). The author is working on an new edition with no scheduled publication date. I couldn't wait for it and went ahead and bought the current edition.)
I found it at a used book dealer here in Dallas and paid $8.00 for it. On the back, it lists for $18.99. I just checked Amazon.com, and they sell it for a measly $69.99! (I guess Kathleen and I are talking about the same book.) I also searched writersdigest.com, but they don't seem be selling it. If I were you, I'd search the used bookstores in your town before flopping seventy bucks down. You might also want to search abebooks.com.
It's a gold mind, I'll tell you that. Good luck finding it.
[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited May 21, 2003).]
Amazon.com listed The Icarus Hunt as $69.99 when I was first looking for it. The person recommending it to me said "No way" and I checked further and it was $6.99. (That pesky little dot again.)
That was all I still had bookmarked. Do a search and you'll come up with more.
Dave
quote:
SF -- Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers. Just finished it--excellent!
Also has anyone ever heard of a book called
"Zetheroth's Fall" (?)
I don't remember if that is the exact title, but I do remember reading it a long time ago. Superb fiction, I wish I had kept a copy.
I recently did some extensive googling and found the name with only a slightly related fragment of story. Wonderful, wonderful story.
Still, if you guys say the book it just that good, I'll have to try it, then, won't I?
Chris
PS--Ergoface, thanks for the link. I bookmarked it.
edited to add:
PPS--I also recently watched the Bourne Identity, and I couldn't help but notice the many differences between the movie and the book. In the documentary, the director (I think) said that they were updating the movie for a newer audience, since the book was written so long ago (1976, if memory serves.) Maybe that's what they were doing for Starship Troopers?
[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited May 23, 2003).]
PEOPLE'S NAMES, A Cross-Cultural Reference Guide to the Proper Use of Over 40,000 Personal and Familial Names in Over 100 Cultures, by Holly Ingraham, published by McFarland & Company, 1997, ISBN 0-7864-0187-7.
Not only does she list names and their meanings, she tells how people are named in each culture and all sorts of other relevant things about naming.
The cultures included are modern as well as historical, and there's a section at the end on "Names without Languages" for those who want to make up names for their stories.
It'll really come in handy.
Chris
Authors I love:
OSC of course (Ender series)
Eddings- I agree Anything
Terry Pratchett- for potato chip type mind candy
Anne McCaffrey- Dragon Riders of Pern especially the Harper hall portion. Crystal Singer series (a bit romance story but the technical and music sections are brilliant.)
Piers Anthony- Incarnations of Immortality
Gene Wolf- anything
Mickey Zuker Reichert- Renshai Series
Heinlein- Anything really, Job, Glory Road, Starship Troopers, Red Planet etc are great reads.
Robert Jordan- Read ONLY to his fourth book. Do not go past four. He'll just infuriate you the way he abandons characters and plots.
Terry Brooks- Anything
Stephen R. Donaldson- Anything
Marion Zimmer Bradley- Anything
CS Lewis- Anything
I could probably add tons more authors that I have read.
As for reference.. I'm taking everyone elses advice on that.
A caveat for George RR Martin- Many many people loved him. Especially the game company that I have worked with for years and that I did the strategy guide for (Wolfpack studios title Shadowbane). I however did not like it. I could not click with any of the characters and the female characters (which I usually identify with being female) made me angry. It was not an enjoyable series and I stopped mid way through the third book out of frustration.
Oh.. remembered another great author- Mary Stewart. She did a great series on Authorian legend and it starts with (I believe) the book "the crystal cave" about Merlin aka Taliesin as a young boy. Also her stand alone book the Ivy Tree will have you guessing the life of a young woman and whether she is or isn't who she says or people claim.
Enough babbling from me.
[This message has been edited by Sachant (edited May 30, 2003).]
I SO agree. I finally gave up after book six, I think. I also found that Jordan had an increasing need to have his female characters spanked by other female characters, and it really started to annoy me, beyond being able to let it go as part of a larger, wonderful story. I intend to read the last book, if he ever has the gumption to finish this series.
I LOVE Mary Stewart. One of my favorite non Merlin novels was TOUCH NOT THE CAT. I have read just about all of her novels. Actually, my favorite of the Merlin-Arthur novels was THE WICKED DAY, which was about Mordred.
If you like the Arthur legend, email me off list. I have a bit of an obsession, and I can lead you to other good stuff, much of which is in the young adult fiction sections.
Have you noticed all the Arthurian stuff in Jordan?
Liz
I haven't read Touch Not the Cat. Loved the Ivy Tree though. Very good book. Unfortunately I loaned it out and never got it back.
The Wicked day was great. Loved the first book too just because of meeting Merlin as a child. Very very good. I'll email you for sure. I'm a book addict as it is.
But here's the real question... Do you like Gwenivere? I just can't like her or Lancelot. All my sympathies are always for Arthur.
Yep, Jordan definetly has that Arthurian touch. I'm soooo glad I didn't read after five which I choked down. I can tell you what happened to him though. His wife started editing his work. There is no way I'd let my husband edit.. he loves everything. LOL
[This message has been edited by Sachant (edited May 30, 2003).]
My own suggestions are:
Ken Macleod's Engines of Ligth series
Perdido Street station and The Scar by china Mieville
Fallen Dragon by Peter F Hamilton
The Dragon Waiting by John M Ford
Stand on Zanzibar by John Brunner
Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe
A Song of Ice and Fire Series by George RR Martin
Assasin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb
Anything by Terry Pratchett
However, I have to completely disagree with the idea that his work is cumbersome, unoriginal, or amateurish. His work is highly descriptive. His world is rich and very well thought out. His characters have depth that I have rarely seen anywhere else. I feel like I know them. I don't understand how you think he's an amateur. His writing style is very easy to follow and, in some cases, beautiful.
As to unoriginal, yes, many of the ideas he has worked into his novels have come from other sources, but whose haven't? True originality comes from putting a new spin on existing ideas, joining them together in a new way, or trying out a new technique. Jordan has done all of these things. He has taken a wide variety of other ideas from cultural atributes to fantasy elements to political intrigues and put them together in such a way that he has truly created a new world. Please, if you know someone who has done this before, let me know because I'd love to read it!
Have you read Tad Williams' fantasy triology I mentioned in my very first post on this thread? It's very good, and it is what inspired George R. R. Martin to begin writing his fantasy triology (which I have yet to read).
I'm not sure Williams is as good was Jordan WAS! Unfortunately, Jordan stumbled along the way, somewhere between Book 4 and Book 5. Too bad.
quote:They never should have begun.
OK, I'll grant you that Robert Jordan's series needed to have ended by now
quote:A pseudo medieavel jumble of cultures.
He has taken a wide variety of other ideas from cultural atributes to fantasy elements to political intrigues and put them together in such a way that he has truly created a new world
quote:
However, I have to completely disagree with the idea that his work is cumbersome, unoriginal, or amateurish. His work is highly descriptive. His world is rich and very well thought out. His characters have depth that I have rarely seen anywhere else. I feel like I know them. I don't understand how you think he's an amateur. His writing style is very easy to follow and, in some cases, beautiful.
His world building suffers from serious defects, from geology to economics to politics to tactics. It really does feel like a patchwork of pseudo-medieval cultural referances cobbled together to give his characters a playground. And in far too many of his books the main action doesn't advance a significant amount. His characterization tends to come primarily out of what the character looks like (especially women, who fit into two catagories; bustier than everyone else, or not so much busty as well endowed ).
In his defense, he has a wonderful natural quality to his storytelling and language. You really can just read his books for the pleasure of the words themselves...if you read fast enough not to die of boredom, that is
I believe we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. : )
Being a woman myself I couldn't stand the women. I could not relate to any of them and he jumps from character to character in each different chapter. If you like a character and get into them...suddenly you find yourself without them for 3-5 chapters or even the rest of the book.
Others say they love him because he's not afraid to kill off people. Well, there is such a thing as going overboard to prove it.
I stopped midway through the third book. I haven't touched it for at least half a year. I'll finish it someday just to have it done with, but it is grueling for me.
As for Jordan, he started well. I enjoyed it thoroughly then.... ugh.
As to opinion on who is and isn't good... Well I often list both the heavier reading and the light reading. Take Eddings for instance. I thoroughly enjoy his work because it is of the lighter variety and I can get swept away in it.
Lately, I enjoy those more because my time to read is limited since I had my daughter. It's like a snack and a vacation both.
quote:
His world building suffers from serious defects, from geology to economics to politics to tactics. It really does feel like a patchwork of pseudo-medieval cultural referances cobbled together to give his characters a playground.
Could you elaborate on this. What exactly does geology have to do with telling a fantasy story? It's been a while, but I don't remember Tolkien discussing in any detail the geology or economics of Middle Earth.
In Jorden's world, there is a pronounced tendancy for rivers to run along the crest of a ridgeline all the way to the sea. I suppose that he does use the "Breaking" to explain other bizzare features of his world, but...I just can't look at his map without giggling...which means that every time I have to refer to the map to understand the spatial relations (which is thankfully a good deal less necessary now that all the important characters can Travel), my immersion in the story comes to a crashing halt.
The economics and politics of his stories just...they make the world a little less real, a bit more of a farce. Every time I get a description of this or that lavish setting or archane political manuever I go riight. You have to keep in mind that I've found all of Elizabeth Moon's work pretty unrealistic too, particularly her ideas about weapons, tactics, and so forth (Moon, a veteran of the USMC, is often praised for the realism of her military portrayals).
Part of the problem is what you mention (though Tolkien actually did give a wealth of detailed information about the economics, geology, and politics of Middle Earth). Jorden gives too many details that practically scream, "It's just a book, none of this is real." Moon also shows off too often that she learned modern tactics--and not much of deep strategy or how to think like a commander (I'm being hard on Moon, she actually does okay much of the time).
In other words, it is the explicit mistakes that catch your eye. The implicit consistency of Tolkien's world is sadly missing in Jorden's work...but then again, it is absent in most fantasy these days.
I just wanted to say, it's JordAn. And I think you're absolutely right.
That is all.
First, Tolkien is to fantasy literature what Twain is to American literatre. You can't talk intelligently about fantasy literature if you haven't read Tolkien. And whether people like it or not, ALL fantasy literature depends on Tolkien. He is the reference point. Jordan purposly began his Wheel of Time Series with a Tolkienesque feel. Tad Williams wrote his massive fantasy trilogy becasue he thought he could say something that Tolkien didn't. George R.R. Martin began his fantasy series becasue he read Tad Williams and thought he could do something similiar. Even Hickman and Weis studied Tolkien scholars before they began the Dragonlance series. Fantasy writers will always be influenced by Tolkein, and the fact that you want to do something different just shows how influenced you are by him.
Second, I know that Survivor has read Tolkien, and I wanted him to compare Jordan to him. If you have ever taken literature class, you know that the reason you usually read more than one author is so that you can compare them. This directly ties into the first point--Tolkien is the father of modern fantasy, so everything is going to be referenced to him.
quote:
And whether people like it or not, ALL fantasy literature depends on Tolkien. He is the reference point. Jordan purposly began his Wheel of Time Series with a Tolkienesque feel. Tad Williams wrote his massive fantasy trilogy becasue he thought he could say something that Tolkien didn't. George R.R. Martin began his fantasy series becasue he read Tad Williams and thought he could do something similiar. Even Hickman and Weis studied Tolkien scholars before they began the Dragonlance series.
I think saying "ALL" is a bit to extreme. There’s a good history of spoken and written fantasy that extends well prior to Tolkien. Where is folklore? And what about some other fantasy works, like Alice in Wonderland which was written in 1865, Nathaniel Hawthorne’s "Young Goodman Brown," and Poe’s short stories (1800’s). Tolkien’s work didn’t start to appear until 1937.
Where Tolkien is the reference point is the modern Medieval styled quest epic. All the works listed above fall into that category. Tolkien’s popularity is also the catalyst for the popularity of the genre within the publishing market today.
I still am enamored of the idea of chess though I can't really play beyond knowing how the pieces move.
However, Balthasar's point, I don't think, wasn't that you should compare all fatntasy to Tolkien. It was that often times, when discussing a work of literature, you use a benchmark such as Tolkien's work to compare it to. In fact, even when we talk about modern fantasy we still start by comparing it to Tolkien. "I liked that it was not a Tokien copycat." Is, actually, a comparison to Tokien. After that point you may have to find another work to compare to.
quote:
Too many authors are lazy and do not think for themselves.
Yes, you're right.