Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Sample Chapters v Sample Pages

This is topic Sample Chapters v Sample Pages in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/writers/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000661

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Some nit-picky submission stuff to those who may know -- Kathleen, et al?

Many if not most agents/publishers (when appropriate) ask for three sample chapters.

My first chapter is only three pages and the third is only two, with a grand total of only 24 pages for the first three (at 250 words/pg). The three make a coherent section. Chapters 4, 5, 6 and 7 (which is only 1 page) add 25 pages and comprise a second coherent division. The total is 49 pages. These 7 chapters are what I'd like to send.

In the not-too-distant past, I broke down some very long chapters and find the present divisions the most agreeable. Even if I went back to the long versions, chapter 8 would become chapter 3, and add another 16 pages for a total of 65 pages -- which seems far too long for 3 sample chapters anyway.

Can/should I send only the actual first three or the what seems to me more reasonable (page-wise, coherence-wise) seven?

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

I've heard "the first three chapters" and "the first 20 pages" and even, "the first 60 pages." Not every set of submission guidelines gives pages along with chapters, though.

I'd recommend that you go with what the guidelines say--if it's "first three chapters" then just send that. (Sometimes, the guidelines will only say "three chapters and an outline" but they mean the FIRST three chapters.)

Twenty-four pages is closer to what most guidelines say that include a number of pages (most say "the first 20 pages"), so you're doubly safe if you only send those first three chapters and not any more.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Thanks, Kathleen. I guess what throws me off -- and I'm a "by the book" person which is why it does -- is the advice I've picked up at conferences (from agents yet)/articles/even OSC, I believe, that suggests guidelines are only that -- guidelines.

For instance, sending sample chapters out with query letters. I understand they're not really multiple submissions since you're not submitting the whole book but are merely asking if the agent/publisher wants to see more of it.

If an agent's/publisher's blurb in Writer's Market asks for only a query letter, will sample chapters annoy them, maybe prejudice them against your manuscript? Yet I'd much rather include the sample chapters in what OSC called a "query parcel" since I think the greatest hook is the actual beginning of the book.

OSC's How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy carries a 1990 copyright. In the book, he advocates not getting an agent before selling a book and not paying an agent more than 10%. Does he still advocate both of these things in 2003? Agents seem to be the keepers of the slush pile now, and from what I can tell, most of them are charging 15%.

(Maybe I should ask this at OSC's Help Desk -- though I've never used it before -- but this info might be helpful to others as well.)

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

Send only what they ask for. If they say three chapters--then send three chapters no more no less. If they ask for a query letter--send only that. If they say 75 pages send only that.

One step at a time.

Queries read fast--so an editor or agent reading one may ask to see more where as if you send the extra stuff and they did not ask for it---they may read it sometime but you can bet you go to the bottom of the pile.

And you have already shown that you can't follow directions and that says you may be hard to work with.

In my experience anyway--it is best to follow their guidelines to the letter.

Shawn

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

I tend to agree with you, Shawn, however, I guess the definition of "query" is key. I'm referring to OSC's HTWSF&F:

quote:
"The query consists of the first couple of chapters and a brief outline of the rest of the book, right to the end....On top of this you may place a one-page synopsis consisting of no more than three paragraphs....Finally {a cover letter}."

He called the whole thing a query parcel.

IMHO (probably not worth a SASE, of course), other than the cover letter, which I think should be a bona fide query letter instead, and the outline could probably bow out to the one-page synopsis, the query parcel makes sense. The agent/publisher gets his query letter, at which point he can stop reading if he's not interested and send the whole thing back in the included SASE, or continue with the sample chapters or synopsis and stop there, or continue by requesting the whole story.

So my question was if OSC still advocated this in 2003, since HTWSF&F was published in 1990.

Maybe I should just go to the Help Desk.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited June 18, 2003).]

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

When I asked Ginjer Buchanan (Ace Books) about query parcels, she told me that if you include any of the actual text of the manuscript then you are sending a submission, and you should only send it to one editor at a time. If you send a query parcel to more than one editor at a time, you need to indicate that it is a simultaneous submission (and editors tend not to like those).

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

For the record, OSC's book said to send queries "to all of them at once." But okay, I guess I'm back full circle to regular query letters. <sigh>

Also for the record -- in case anyone is following this -- at a writer's conference I attended, agent Donald Maass said sending out multiple queries was okay (I'm sure he meant letters), but be sure to tell each editor/agent that's what you're doing.

Now to find that query letter...

Posted by JOHN (Member # 1343) on :

I've always liked the glib approach Tor took to writing their guidelines.

quote:
We'd have sworn our submissions guidelines covered all the necessary information, but a few questions keep turning up. Like: How much detail should there be in the synopsis? And: If the book has a prologue, does that count as one of the three sample chapters, or can the writer send the prologue plus the first three chapters? And so forth.
The answer is simple: send whatever you think is necessary and sufficient to sell the book to us. This isn't a class assignment.

But this is only one publisher that feels this way, so as everyone else said---I’d work within the guidelines of the individual publisher.

JOHN!

[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited June 20, 2003).]

Posted by Khyber (Member # 1651) on :

Would it be that much of an issue to just call them up and ask? I wouldn't try to haggle a few more pages, but just to clarify their guidelines.

Anyway...

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Been thinkin' 'bout it.

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

If their guidlines say send query only--they mean only that letter. If they say send a query package then send the synopsis, letter, and sample chapters--the standard three.

Most professional places are pretty clear about what they want.

Shawn

Posted by Cosmi (Member # 1252) on :

this may not work in your case, Kolona, but could you possible combine your chapters that make a "coherent section" into one chapter and make the former chapter breaks into subsections? i've seen this work well in other books, though i imagine, like everything else, it can be overdone.

TTFN & lol

Cosmi

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Basically, Cosmi, the first three were together as the first chapter, and the next four as the second, but besides being too long -- I thought -- they didn't read well for several reasons.

I start with a -- I guess I'd call him a secondary main character in a short chapter one, who I get out of the way quickly in a short chapter three, and other than some quick one-page chapters to remind us he's still there, he doesn't show up for almost a third of the story, then he's one of the main players.

Chapter two introduces the actual main character(s). I know this is considered a no-no, but I wrote it before I knew that, and when I questioned an agent who looked over my story at a writer's conference, he brushed my concerns aside, and an editor who critiqued 20 pages had no argument with it.

In fact, I've had some problems similar to Doc's Gulliver/Bond dilemma, partly due to this first character. So far each of my wise readers has liked this guy, even the aforementioned editor who was kind of excited about him. Giving him his own chapters until he's integrated into the story helps keep him off to the side.

The second coherent section of four chapters involves the most exposition, and when I had it all in one chapter it seemed far too heavy-handed. Breaking it into three chapters, with the fourth (actually the seventh in the big picture) belonging to my Gulliver character, helped me dole out the necessary info in a more reader-friendly format.

All that to say I think the present format is the best one for the story. And, the first three chapters, even if only 24 pages, do make a coherent whole, so I think I'm in good shape. I just would prefer to include the next four since they give some background.

I'll simply study the guidelines for now and hope that the Tor attitude is contagious.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited June 24, 2003).]