Although it does say "for." And only up to $3000. 
(CW, you're a nasty influence on me. 
) We haven't had a real vacation for about 3 years and my Wife and I are planning a cruise. Got to keep the little Lady happy you know!
I wish OSC would take this boot camp on the road sometime. You know kinda like a traveling show. Do it in various locations around the country. That would be cool!
I went last year, and I highly recommend it to those who are serious about writing, and who have the time and money to go.
For those who do not have the time and money, the two-day writing class may be an option. I've been to it twice, and learned a lot both times.
I highly recommend it for anyone who can afford it
--James Maxey
quote:
Card's overall career advice was also very valuable.
In short, what might that be?
Also, could you briefly tell us what your breakthrough consisted of? I'm pretty much a John Gardner disciple, and in his two books on writing he often says that learning how to write is more or less a matter of "catching on" -- there is no discursive reasoning or propositional knowledge involved. It's as if a light suddenly turns on and, viola, you're at a new level. Looking back on that time, do you know what light suddenly turned on? Or, is it still too nebulous in your own mind? (Sometimes we can never really talk about our catching on; we just know there's been a change. I've had several of these experiences, and I'm only really able to talk about one or two of them.)
- Jerome
[This message has been edited by Jerome Vall (edited February 13, 2004).]
It was only through a long shot that I heard about the first OSC Boot Camp. My second ex-wife, whom I never speak to, actually e-mailed me an announcement about it. I have no idea how she heard about it, since I don't think she's ever read anything by Card. But, since the workshop was in Greensboro, where I lived, and since it only required a week invested of my time, versus six weeks for Odyssey, I figured it couldn't hurt to at least apply. I used the first page of my short story "Little Guilt Thing Goin' On" for my submission sample. A few weeks later, I was accepted.
Card was like the mirror dimension good twin of Harlan Ellison. While Harlan had badmouthed the industry, Card told stories that made writing for a living seem like a pretty swell job. Harlan had said that good style hid the flaws of a weak story; Card said that a good story will hide flaws in style. Card also put all the contradictory advice I'd gotten from Odyssey into one coherent philosophy. There is no one way or formula to write a good story. It is okay to write a story that emphasises setting over character, or vice versa. There are markets and precedents for almost anything you can imagine. Card also dismissed the worries I had that my stories weren't original enough. He flat-out stated that originality is an overrated attribute, that most writers make a living exploring themes and ideas that have been done a zillion times before.
When I had my Boot Camp story idea critiqued in front of the whole group, the idea was picked into so many pieces that Card actually suggested pick a new idea. I could tell he was completely unimpressed. But, luckily, John Crowley's advice from Odyssey was still with me--good stories have their own voice. I went home that night, lit my tiki torches on my deck, mixed up a jumbo margarita, and typed on my laptop until about 5am, turning out a story I was proud of. It was like ten years of writing advice finally clicked, and I was able to write a story that seemed to have a little bit of everything--good sensual detail fleshing out the setting, a tight plot, engaging characters, all tied together by the very stylish voice of my narrator. The reaction from the class was terrific. I felt like I had undergone a trial by fire, and passed.
In the final hours of the class, Card did something that really helped me more than anything. He went through the one page submissions that he'd used to select who would attend the class. He read them out loud, then talked about what he saw in them that made him think that the writer had promise--if they'd started with a good setting, or an intriguing character, or the promise of a good plot, whatever. When he got to mine, he read it out loud, laughing at the places I wanted him to laugh, and then summed up why he's chosen me for the class--"This was a no brainer." It was a huge boost to my confidence. After Boot Camp, I started submitting stories again. Six months later, I'd won the Phobos contest with "Empire of Dreams and Miracles." A year after that, I sold my "unpublishable" novel to Phobos. I've sold my short stories "Little Guilt Thing Goin' On," "Perhaps the Snail," "As It is in Heaven," and "Absolutely Brilliant in Chrome," all at pro (or at least near pro) rates. And even my rejections now are almost always direct from the editor, with few form rejections.
I'm a long, long way from being able to support myself writing, but at least I made enough money last year to really make filling out my taxes this year a pain.
One final note: All of the stories I've sold to date (with one exception) were written in the three year gap between Odyssey and Boot Camp, so apparently Odyssey helped me more than I could see. But when I was writing these stories, I often felt like I was flailing around in the dark. The main thing Boot Camp did for me was to help me see the light at the end of the tunnel. Card gives a great pep talk.
--James Maxey
Thanks for the post. After being on this board for some time--and after reading a lot of books on writing--I am convinced that to be a writing teacher one must have a magnanimous mind and soul: a magnanimous mind because one must be able to see the good things in works or authors they don't particularly care for, and a magnanimous soul because the only way one can become a successful writer is a steady dose of faith, optimism, and perseverance. I find these qualities in John Gardner's books on writing, and it seems that Orson Scott Card has them, too.
(A digression: I think Harlen Ellison is the most over-rated SF writer who has ever lived. I have never read a story of his that I've liked, and whenever see him praised I am mind-boggled how he has duped yet another person. I've also read some interviews with him and . . . well, let's just leave it at that.)
Two things struck me about your personal quest. First, you had a long and solid apprenticeship--something I think a lot of writers forget about--before you started selling on a regular basis. Sure, I suppose we can all look at odd balls, people like Terry Goodkind and Tad Williams who sold the first thing they wrote. (I like Williams, but I've never read Goodkind.) The ordinary way of making it is by working on your craft for a number of years. There's just too much that goes into making a piece of fiction a good piece of fiction. And it takes time to learn that.
Second, I noticed that the vast majority of everything you've sold was written when you were too afraid to publish. I wonder if you had a Faulkner-like experience. After Faulkner had sold his first three novels, his publisher told him it call it quits. Faulkner figured that his writing career was over and decided to write the story he wanted to read, which ended up being The Sound and the Fury--the novel that launched a very prestigious career. I wonder if there's a moral here, namely, that when we view publication as a kind of validation for our writing, we're doing ourselves a disservice. I'm reminded of the advise I posted from Somerset Maugham, which said, in effect, that a writer should take pleasure in the act of creativity and the unburdening of the mind that comes with writing and not worry about publishing success or failure. Interestingly, John Gardner gives the same advice to novices.
On a personal note, the reason why the subject about publication is on my mind is because lately I've had a kind of epiphany. I've discovered that I am not a short-story writer. Every idea I have seems to explode to either novella or novel length. For two years, I've resisted this, writing a lot of pseudo-autobiographical short-stories. I don't regret doing that; I learned a lot in the process. But at the beginning of the year I decided just to write the novel that's been on my mind for the last four months. Its coming along splendidly. I've never enjoyed writing so much as I do now.
But at odd times during the day, I ask myself, "What am I going to do with it when it's done?" I certainly can't answer that question until it's done; the final product will be something very different than what I have in my head. But I've noticed that the more I ask this question--or, the more I take this question seriously--the harder it is to write. Part of me really wants to say, "To hell with it, I'm just going to write this thing," and I suppose part of me is looking for validation for doing precisely this.
Anyway, I don't want this thread to become a Jerome Vall counseling session. Thanks again, James, for writing your post.
- Jerome
I'm just messing with you, man.
Harlen Ellison has had a tremendous impact on getting SF taken more seriously as literature, and for that many people revere him. I think that most of his work in that direction has had an evil tendency...and in fact...okay, I might agree with the statement that he is a personification of evil.
I've liked all his work that I've written, even where I found the writing quite thin. But an important thing to remember is that when he says good style can cover insubstantial stories, he's not talking about his own. He secretly (okay, not secretly) thinks that most of the stories that people like have no 'substance' and therefore imagines that the only reason people buy those stories (often in preference to his work) is something to do with 'style'.
The fact of the matter is that really good style not only can't hide a weak story, it will make it so obvious that the story is weak that even ordinarily very tolerant readers will be cursing the time you forced them to waste reading your idiotic story. After all, I learned to detest Carl Sagan's astrology career, but I didn't dislike him personally until after I read Contact. His writing style is so strong that there is simply no way to hide the fact that the narrative isn't a story (I'm sure that the movie did something to correct this deficit, but since reading the book my dislike of anything to do with Sagan is personal).
and says:
"Uncle Orson's Writing Class and Literary Bootcamp 2004 will be held at Southern Virginia University in Buena Vista VA. The dates are June 7th and 8th for the Writing Class, June 7-12 for the Bootcamp. Registration details will be posted soon."
Anyone interested in applying should check the home page regularly.
http://www.ericjamesstone.com/writing/osc_boot_camp_sample.html
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited February 18, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Jerome Vall (edited February 19, 2004).]
Actually, it's really just two aspects of one flaw: I started the story in the wrong place.
1. I try to create false suspense. Kodara knows why she would prefer suicide to being captured, but the reader does not know, and won't know for a while. Generally, the character should not know something significant that the reader does not. Real suspense comes from wondering what will happen, not wondering what the character knows that you don't.
2. I move into a major flashback on the first page. Tell the story in time order unless there's a good reason not to.
For the second one, I felt I had a good reason. I had written a different version that started at the beginning of the flashback. I read that first page, and I thought it gave the impression that it was a story about torture. Since it's not really a story about the torture, but rather about the escape, I decided it was better to start during the escape and flash back to the torture, so the reader would have a better idea of what kind of story it was.
OSC's suggested solution was to start the story even earlier, so that the first impression is not that it's all about torture.
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited February 19, 2004).]
--James
The rest of the week was only for those who had been accepted to Boot Camp. I don't know how many people applied, but only 18 were accepted. (Something OSC said implied that about half the people who applied were accepted, but I don't recall anything specific said on the subject.)
Wednesday there was no class, because it was writing day. The procedure was a little different from James's experience. Instead of assigning 6 people to finish their stories by Thursday morning, OSC said that was the deadline for all of us. He also said that he knew some people would not finish, and that for them, the deadline would be Friday morning. And some people would be unable to finish by then, and so for them the deadline would be Saturday morning.
I turned my story in on Thursday morning, and it ended up being #15, the last of the stories turned in the first day. So most of the people finished by the first deadline. (OSC was rather surprised.)
While stories were being photocopied, we practiced our critiquing techniques on some of the writing samples people had used to get into Boot Camp. (Some of them had already been critiqued on Monday or Tuesday in front of the large class.)
Once we had stories to read, we read the first few and then began critiquing. That's what took up most of our time on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.
Boot camp was great. Worth every penny. Worth the time away from family and a familiar setting.
Sorry. I couldn't resist. It's actually to returned missionaries. Although it does say "for." And only up to $3000. (CW, you're a nasty influence on me. )
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited February 19, 2004).]
Sorry about the whole corrupting influence thing. Somehow, I'm sure this indicative of why I'm still single.
Admit it. It's the Dr. Pepper
I know I am setting myself up, but what the hay!
Actually, I already thought about that angle, TruHero. How about a Bootcamp scholarship for the best joke about SVU? Maybe they'll like the kidnapping bit. (As you say: What the hay. )
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited February 21, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited February 21, 2004).]
http://www.hatrack.com/svu.pdf
SVU is a mere six hour drive from my home, so I couldn't pass it up.
I'm not sure I am ready for the bootcamp, but I want to believe I'm ready. I sent my writing sample, so time will tell.
Is anyone else definitely going?
Good luck Nexus and have fun, and do keep us posted on how it was.
As far as the cost, I recall seeing $750 for the camp and $30/day for on-campus housing. If you ask me, it's a steal. I've paid a lot more than that for IT certifications which I'm learning don't amount to much. Essentially, if you take advantage of on-campus housing, you could get the full camp for under $1000--no including airfare, of course. But to me you get personalized instruction from a very sucessful author for a full week in the audience of peers who are undoubtedly talented else they would not have been selected to attend...what more could you want?
...a publishing contract, I suppose...
quote:
Damn nerves.
And aren't they fun. I agonized and fiddled and hopefully properly proof-read (my great nemisis), and finally stuffed said page in the envelope. Still a bit twitchy about it.
I can be a twitchy person anyway though, so at least I'm used to it.
But really, what's the worst that can happen? They say "No." So you go for the 2 day part and try again next year, and hope no one else in the forum read this thread and knows you didn't make it in 'cause that would just make you feel silly (Oops, too late for me on that one). <laugh> But then how silly can you really feel about faceless names on the internet in the long run anyway.
Send something in if you want to go. You aren't going to embarass youself if what you send is like the Paint and Bloody Ashes story.
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited March 16, 2004).]
Good luck!
Is there a required format -- name on the page, no name, must have a title, etc.?Logistically, is there transportation from airport or bus station? Hotels to SVU? Or must you have a car?
quote:
First page. Does that mean only thirteen lines? Is there a required format -- name on the page, no name, must have a title, etc.?
I believe there were samples shorter than mine, which might have been due to using a monospace font, or including more info on the page, or including just 13 lines. There were definitely samples longer than mine: at least one was more than a page of single-spaced 12-point proportional font.
So, in the absence of specific guidance from the guidelines, do something that can reasonably be construed as following the guidelines.
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited March 17, 2004).]
When I applied last year, I decided that if I didn't get into Bootcamp, I wouldn't make the trip for the 2-day seminar. Luckily, I got in and had the benefit of both. Knowing now what I almost missed, I might have changed my decision. As for Bootcamp itself, I had never been to a writing workshop before. To me it was utterly priceless.
Alethea
<-- Has never been very good at waiting.
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited April 17, 2004).]
I thought maybe the mail might have been delayed because of Good Friday.
And it's a tad chilly sleeping outside next to the mailbox. Anyway, I'll post when/if I hear anything.
Gary
) They actually called me, but that was at a different school, so I don't know if that's what they'll do this year. They called first, and a few days later they sent more info through the mail.Just so you know camping out by your phone may end up being more productive than tha mailbox.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited April 17, 2004).]
(I'm in Utah and they're in North Carolina.)
I'd guess, though, that it's taken longer than they anticipated to decide, and you should hear soon, especially if they want their money when they say they want it.
I guess we should all just relax and be patient then.
>z
You wait...
>z
You wait...
Hmm. Time doesn't seem to be going any faster. Well, it worked in Zork. I guess I'll have to wait the old fashioned way.
I got in! *happy dance of glee*
Hope to see lots of other Hatrackers there!
Say hi to Scott for me when you see him.
I was so surprised that I said, OKTHANKSBYE and hung up. Hope she didn't need to tell me anything important. :0
<--joining GZ's *happy dance of glee*
I was accepted to Bootcamp also!
Woo Hoo Woo Woo Woo Hoo! (I'm very happy!)
Congrats to everyone else that made the cut! It will be nice to meet you in person.
Wow, so many going to boot camp this year! I'll see you around the alumni forum in a couple of months.
I was immediately relieved when I read the email. I had been planning how I would politely decline. I don't have the money (since I don't want to work this summer) and if I did work this summer to pay for it, I wouldn't have the time.
But then it dawned on me what that actually implied. I wasn't chosen. Or rather, he chose NOT to pick me.
A little disheartening.
If I were to make a friendly suggestion, I'd use this year to find one or two big problems you see with your writing and really focus on them. I'm not sure what those things are, but I've noticed that one of the worst things that happens to budding new writers is that they get critiques that divide their focus 100 different ways. You can't fix 100 things now, but you can work on 1 or 2, get them under your belt, and then work on 1 or 2 more. Work hard, use this summer to work on your writing if you don't *work* for money, and I bet you can get in next year!
And Rahl22, even if you didn’t get in, you know you tried. If you hadn’t applied, your chance would have been nil. Keep at it, and don’t let it get you down.
I imagine that this has something to do with people being accepted and then declining, thus opening up their spots. I hope this doesn't make me a second-class citizen of sorts, but I don't care.
I'm going to go anyway.
Congrats Rahl! (And everyone else!)
Having read some of your writing, I was a bit surprised when you didn't get in. Glad to know I'm not totally clueless when it comes to recognizing talent.
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited April 26, 2004).]
Gary
See you in the alumni forum...
Alethea
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited May 15, 2004).]
Class begins June 7th, right? I bought my plane ticket so I'll be there. I'm sure we'll hear something soon.
Maybe some of the past bootcampers could shed some light on the situation. What happens next?
Take good notes...and share them with us.
quote:
Hi. I'm checking all the e-mail to make sure they're working so we can communicate via e-mail. Would you please respond to this e-mail to I can know I have the correct address?
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Bellamy
Assistant to Orson Scott Card
I fully expect that we'll get the details you're concerned about from Ms. Bellamy in due time.
If you didn't get this email, let me know and I can give you her email address.
I'm still waiting on the book though. Truth is I already read it. But I wouldn't mind having an extra copy to loan out
Fun to reread yet again. I like that book (and How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy for that matter.) Funny that, all things considered.
Not that that isn't fun or anything. Oh no, not at all.
By the way, is anyone else staying in the dorms? I thought it was sort of hilarious that they suggest we bring a fan. Now I have friends lining up to go with me!!
Just kidding. I've never been to Virginia (or anywhere on the east coast for that matter) but I suppose it's pretty hot during the summer. That's cool though, it'll seem more like a bootcamp!!
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited May 18, 2004).]
VA might be different, but if the dorms are anything like Greensboro, here's some advice from my experience last year:
Bring towels and everything you need for your daily ablutions. If you like toilet paper that doesn't feel like sandpaper, bring that too (us girls finally went out and bought some). An extra blanket or pillow might be nice. The beds suck. No real getting around that. Bring an alarm clock. If you bring a laptop on which to write your story, be able to burn it to disc or CD so you can print it somewhere on campus.
And hopefully you all won't have to experience the Great Caterpillar Migration. Or centipedes. Or whatever the heck those things were.
Did I forget anything?
I haven't heard anything about monster caterpillars, but I read somewhere that the east coast was under attack by shrimp-sized cicadas. Apparently they only show up every 17 years. Lucky us!!
http://www.nbc4.com/news/3010482/detail.html
They are big, slow, noisy, crunchy (underfoot), and supposedly don't stray far from their trees. They might not be a big deal on a college campus. So far I only had to deal with them at an outside tot lot that was surrounded with trees. You'll be inside writing, so no worries!
I also will be staying in the dorms. I'm already a poor college student, and although I've been in an apartment the last few years, I think I can probably handle those uber-uncomfortable beds for another week.
Which means lots of cicadas.
As far as rooms go, I strongly suggest that you pay the extra to get your own room. Privacy is a wonderful thing when you're trying to compose and finish a story in one day. The demands the class places on you will be quite enough without having to deal with a stranger all up in your personal space. . .
Plus, if you have your own room, you can push the horrendously small beds together to make a comfortably-sized big bed.
(There were no centipedes in MY room, Thieftess. . . might have something to do with the blood sacrifices I offered before heading out. )
Man, I'm homesick for boot camp.
Yeah, we never DID get around to eating ol' Uncle Orson's heart, did we? Lucky for you year 4 people...
There was something about having a roommate in the dorm rooms. I'm hoping to make friends at the boot camp and not have someone hate me.
You see, I snore really, really loud...
God only knows how my wife sleeps at night.
Of course, it was sooo worth it.I'm only 26, and college wasn't that long ago. I suppose I didn't mind going back to the days of a dorm room and a roommate, especially just for a week. I brought a laptop with me and so I could write wherever I wanted...I didn't have to stay in the room. As it happened, my roommate was the one to opt for outdoor writing, which was fine with me. The dorms were empty and there weree a lot of privacy options. Besides, I ended up with the second good roommate I'd ever had in my life. (But let's not open up THAT canof worms... )
~L.L.
There goes my BIG BREAK.
hee hee
Hey, I'll read it! I loved Men in Black! (Okay, okay, I'm leaving you Boot Campers to get back to your plans! )
One of the problems of shifting campuses from year to year is that we can't ask pragmatic questions about that college in particular. My mom has a laptop that I could bring, but it might cause a bit of an inconvenience. Should I anyway? Do you think there might be comp. labs available? Probably not. I should probably bring it.
See, I don't need you people anyway
Bring a laptop. (Or, if you end up driving, you could take your desktop computer with you.)
You won't need a computer during the class sessions, but you definitely will need one to write your story while you are there. Relying on a computer lab to have a computer available for as long as you want is not a good idea.
I woke up Wednesday morning and did not eat, shower or dress. I just pulled the laptop onto the bed and wrote. I was done in six hours. It was like 8000 words or something. Which I still sort of can't believe.
It's amazing what abject terror can do for one's motivation.
Even after all that, the story had some major problems that became apparent during the critiquing session. In one of the more memorable moments, Thieftess even said she wanted to slap some sense into my characters.
Since you're working in such a short time frame, you shouldn't expect to produce a beautiful, moving, nearly flawless story that will astound your fellow-students and OSC. (Someone in our group went ahead and did that anyway, leaving us nothing to do while critiquing but to nitpick about minor details.)
While you're there, you'll probably be comparing your story to the stories that others have written. If you don't feel like yours is the best, don't despair. If I were to rank my boot camp story against the others, I'd put it about the middle of the pack.
Write the best story you can, but expect plenty of criticism.
Welcome the advice you get, both from OSC and from your fellow bootcampers. Thanks to the critiques I received on my story, I added about 1500 words, re-wrote parts of it, polished it up, submitted it, and sold it.
I didn't produce poetry, and it had a lot of problems. The thing is, I can sometimes produce a story in a day, from idea to finished product, but not that day. I played fair by the rules and used a concept I didn't even have the seed for until I went there. The thing is, despite the pborlems (or maybe because of them) I learned a ton. Despite the flood of comments (I think at the end of the round there wasn't a single line in the story that hand't been picked at.), I felt I had gotten more useful and less destructive (more constructive) advice than I had ever gotten before.
Don't make it a contest...the contest is with yourself to produce the best work you can and then wow everyone by getting even better after you leafve. (I'm still working on that last part....I'm *sure* someone will pick up one of my short stories sooonnnn.)
Glad to hear again that people survived the time restraint well. Only once have I done concept to finished product in four hours. And while that proves it can happen, I fear I might have accidentally used up my quotient of quick story production this year a month too soon.
I can't wait, I can't wait!
It didn't. Like Thieftess, I learned that the main thing keeping me from finishing a story was BIC. I started as soon as I got back to my room on Tuesday night, and wrote until about 1am. Then I woke up and wrote straight through the morning until about 5pm on Wednesday.
I edited and tweaked after that for only about three hours, on and off, and then again on Thursday morning.
That was one of the most powerful things I've ever learned in my life-- that I could do this writing thing. Maybe what I created wasn't all that great, but I could do it just the same.
I'm curious--do you have an idea what you're going to write about before you glue your butt to the chair? I mean, did OSC pass around a hat with ideas? I guess what I'm getting at is should I have some sort of story brewing ahead of time, or will that defeat the purpose?
quote:
I guess what I'm getting at is should I have some sort of story brewing ahead of time, or will that defeat the purpose?
Whatever you do, do not use an old story. Aside from the fact that you're not doing yourself any good, if you turn in something that ignores the things he says in the big group on Monday and Tuesday, you'll get reamed. OSC is an extraordinarily pleasant person, and an excellent teacher, but if you get him sufficiently annoyed I promise you that you'll know it. (And no, it didn't happen to me.) (Well, at least not in regard to my story.)
I can't wait!
Hey, for all those bootcampers going this year -- have you figured out how far from the campus the airport is?
I'm flying to Baltimore and taking the Greyhound into Virginia. It's a good distance, but it was the best price from California.
Try Mapquest--type in the 3-letter airport code and then SVU's address. It should give you the distance. If you go to the airport's website it will probably have a link to whatever busline they use.
*sigh* No, no I don't. I'm just jealous that you guys get to go bootcamp and I don't. 
It sucks being poor.
But hey! New Year's Resolution! (Ignoring that it's May...) Manage to make it there next year.
Yep. Lookin' forward to it.
CVG
PS--Please excuse my childish outburst. It's my break from writing (though technically, I'm not supposed to be ona break...bad! Bad Cristian!) and the juices are flowing freely.
PPS--That's creative juices. Just in case any of you have gutter minds.
PPPS--Like me. :P
Anyway, I hope that helps.
By the way, if you're a student, you should check out http://www.statravel.com/ They have some pretty decent deals on flights.
Good luck
Luckily, I'm staying over till Sunday so the extension doesn't affect any travel plans. I've no idea where you're headed after class, GZ, but if it's that far you might as well stay another night. That way you won't have to dread the drive during what could be a twelve hour day (9am-9pm)
Yeah, I'll definately have to juggle my arrangments and stay over that night. I don't start 10 hour car trips at 9 pm!