This is topic Same Old Same New in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


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Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :
 
For no good reason, I watched the movies The Angry Red Planet and 2010: The Year We Make Contact, one right after another. Of course the level of sophistication of the movies themselves, and the acting -- oh my word, the acting! -- was eons apart, but I was floored by the similarity of storylines, especially the endings. Both had aliens telling us to leave that planet or moon and never come back.

Now I'm familiar with the idea there are really only so many plots, but watching these two movies in such immediate juxtaposition with each other still hammered home that there are myriad ways to tell a tale. Cliched is only that if we mishandle our material.

Just some food for thought.
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
You all may have seen this, or done it, but I haven't, and I'd like to see a group take a well-known tale and have each member re-tell it. It would be interesting to see the varied routes to the same goal. I'm not saying that the stories should be set in the same universe, use the same characters, etc.; rather, the opposite.

Has anyone created an edited anthology of retellings of the same story?

Let's say we challenged OSC, Charles deLint, Tanith Lee and Stephen King to all retell >>place your favorite tale here<<. If they all agreed (unlikely, but fun to think about)it would make for an interesting evenings reading.
 


Posted by bladeofwords (Member # 2132) on :
 
Oh hell yeah it would. I mean, besides the fact that they are all professional writers whereas we wish we could be, it would be interesting to do the exact same thing here. Pick some classic fairy tale (randomly of course) and have people submit them somewhere and then post them all at the end of the week or something.

This whole story thing is becoming apparent to me too. Several times I come up with something very cool and then a friend said, oh yeah that's like in <insert book here>. Sometimes I'll go pick up that book and it is sorta the same story except, not. On the way back from a friends house (two hour drive) this weekend I thought of this interesting vampire-esque thing where they feed on your soul too, which all ties in very neatly with some of the things I've already planned. Fifteen minutes later I realized that sounded exactly like what the dementors from Harry Potter do. (What can I say, they're interesting) When I first tried to explain it that's what it seemed like, but then I realized that that element would be totally different in my story. I think it's sort of like cooking, we've been using basically the same ingredients since the beginning of civilization but we keep coming up with interesting and yummy things to eat. Same with writing, maybe.

Ok, enough blabbering. Surely, nobody actually reads these posts.

Jon

[This message has been edited by bladeofwords (edited August 03, 2004).]
 


Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
 
quote:
Surely, nobody actually reads these posts.

I actually read these posts. And stop calling me Shirley!
 
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
 
Hmm. I guess that works a lot better in oral communication than in written.
 
Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
 
quote:
I actually read these posts. And stop calling me Shirley!

LOL It works fine written, EricJamesStone.

Back to the topic, this makes me think of the history of inventing. You discover that many people had the same idea, a few really worked hard at it, but only one person got credited with it because they'd either put in the most effort or just got lucky.

What made me think of this is that I noticed one of the posters here (was it Lorien?) was toying around with a story about a vampire who was once a priest. I was working on a story like that a year ago, but gave it up because it was too dark for me.

This makes me wonder if there are "muses" whispering stories in our ears and the writers are the ones who bother putting them on paper. And maybe the reason there are so many writers nowadays is because the muses are getting more insistent about the stories that need to be written.

Ah, the ramblings of a sleep-deprived mind.
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
Anyone read the Fairy Tale series edited by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling? If you haven't go pick up any of the anthologies in the series. They are excellent retellings of fairy tales for adults. Sometimes you get the same story in radically different ways.

I participated in a theater workshop where teams were handed the same one page script and sent away for a week. The ten different shows that resulted were radically different, and yet each supported an aspect of the script. It was very exciting. It's one of the reasons I don't get upset about the platitude that there are only 'x' number of plots. It's the telling of the story, and the details that make it interesting.

What's that other one..."God is in the details?" I think that's where the good books are too.
 


Posted by goatboy (Member # 2062) on :
 
Yes, there are only x number of plots, but don't you dream about discovering X+1?
 
Posted by bladeofwords (Member # 2132) on :
 
ooooh, that was a good one goatboy, nice and rhetorical and stuff. Oh man, that would be awesome to come up with a truly new idea, then again you would probably get killed for being a heretic or something (or maybe it would just sink your career).

I was speaking in reference to my posts in particular, Shirley. :-) Maybe somebody bothers to read even mine sometimes.

Jon
 


Posted by NewsBys (Member # 1950) on :
 
This is why I like hanging around with you guys.

Blade - I love that bit about the recipes, mind if I quote you?

Keeley - That idea about the muses would make for an awesome story!

Hey, if anyone really wants to do the fairy tale thing, count me in!
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
Has anyone read Twice Upon a Time by Denise Little?

It is a great collection of short stories based on faerie tales, just retold from a different POV. i.e. Is the "big-bad-wolf" really the villian in Little Red Riding Hood? Is there a connection between the Princess and the Pea and Rapunzel?

Some good reading.

p.s. I'm intrigued with the writing assignment. Maybe we should ask Kathleen if we can create the assignment and post the responses in the writing class.
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
OOOHH!!Yeah! This writing assignment sounds VERY interesting. But I would prefer that we pick something a bit more obscure, something that won't already have been done TO DEATH in retellings. Or, better yet, a short story from one of the masters or even a recent Hugo winner or...

So who made the initial suggestion? I think it was Mike. So, Mike, you wanna choose a story for us? And how do we want to handle it? A new post?
 


Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
 
I'd like to be part of this assignment, too.

The best re-telling of a fairy tale I read was a chilling re-make of Puss in Boots called "Puss". If I remember right, it was in the anthology Snow White, Blood Red and was by Esther M. Friesner. The cat isn't a cat at all, the boy is more than stupid, and the princess...if I say anything more, I'll give away the story. It was a fantastic read and I absolutely loved it.
 


Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
 
Stories that haven't been overdone? I'm not familiar enough with this to say. But two of the stories I'd like to see re-done are "The Youth Who Could Not Shiver and Shake" and "The Twelve Brothers".

I don't think anyone's done those yet.
 


Posted by bladeofwords (Member # 2132) on :
 
I didn't think that was really such a great analogy but if you want to quote me go ahead, I'm flattered. Speaking of redone fairy tales have any of you guys heard of the musical "into the woods." From what I've heard (and seen) it's insanely hard to pull off but if done right it's awesome. The story is very cool. I like the idea of doing something not quite so often rehashed as the classic fairy tales. The good thing about them though is that they are fairly simple and ambiguous (at least the disney versions with which we are mostly familiar are).

Hopefully Kathleen will stumble across this thread soon and we can talk turn it into a writing assignment, somebody would just need to pick a new story, one without too many details probably.

Has anybody ever read/seen "Wicked" (I haven't but I have several friends who are obsessed with it). It's a retelling/expounding of the story of the Wizard of Oz in which Glenda isn't such a good which and the Wicked Witch of the West isn't so bad (they were once friends according to it.)

Jon
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
How about redoing a folk type story? Perhaps one of the Beowulf (sp?) legends.

Also, what time frame are we talking about for this assignment?
 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
And how much text are we talking about posting?

Y'all know I have this thing about more than 13 lines, dontcha?

How about if we keep the assignment right here, and just have you brainstorm (along the lines of OSC's 1000 ideas in an hour sessions, for those who know what those are) all the different ways you can reinterpret a story.

To make it more interesting, we could add the rule that you have to come up with a description of how you think some famous writer would reinterpret a story, instead of giving away how you'd do it (in case you want to write it up and try selling it someday).

For example, for a high school English assignment (umpty-ump years ago), I wrote a version of "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" the way I thought F. Scott Fitzgerald would have written it (after having read THE GREAT GATSBY).

You could make your own choice of what story to retell and use the working title to show what you're combining: "Goldilocks and the Three Bears meet the Great Gatsby," anyone?
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
OK. So if we're going to do this we can't do it here. We need to work semi-independent of Hatrack. OR (Idea just popping into my head!) we could turn it into a 13-line flashfiction assignment. I dunno.

Maybe someone ought to begin a new post to see who wants to participate. Ask anyone interested to read this thread before jumping in and also to suggest a story to rewrite. Then we can exchange by email on or before a given assigned date. Anyone not meeting the deadline is SOL. And anyone else interested in 'reading only' can sign in too if they want.

As far as posting on "Writing Assignments," that's a bit of a problem. Posting all our stories would seriously overburden Kathleen. So, maybe we could, at a later date, start a discussion on how it all went and what we learned, or each post thirteen lines from our stories or...???

Kolona, since you started us in on this, I defer to you the first rights of authorship for a new post and to set the rules.
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
I think we set the assignment, then post thirteen lines each in Fragments and Feedback. Then we can all trade that way. Just like normal exchanges, but we'll have a theme. I'm a big fan of using existing technology instead of reinventing the wheel.
 
Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
Hi guys

I agree with MaryRobinette.

However, if you guys want forum capability, I have a private bulletin board on my (perpetually unfinished) personal website and I can easily create a forum for us all there. You have to register and be approved by me etc, so there would be some emails flying around for a bit, but it would work very much like this forum does. To see it, go to http://www.munsil.net and click on Forums.

[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 04, 2004).]
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
I also like the 13-lines idea. That way we get the full story out to those who want to participate.

I also like Kathleen's suggestion about writing as we think a famous author would.
(Thanks also for thinking of our rights )

When whomever starts the rules and sign-up thread, I'm in.

Hmmm, Robyn Hood does Shakespeare doing Robin Hood
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
I was just over at Quantum Muse checking out my story when I noticed this one. It's an interesting take on Little Red Riding Hood.

Here's a direct link:

http://www.quantummuse.com/aug04_red.html
 


Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :
 
Thanks,dakota, but the only thing that's running through my mind as I read all this is "Pippi Longstocking Meets Godzilla in Space" -- and I don't think that's where you folks are going. I will respectfully further defer to someone who's more on the same page with the spirit of this endeavor and see if I can get past my mental block.
 
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
Maybe we could brainstorm a few stories (5 or 6) that could be retold or combined.

Those who sign up can choose from the list and do one of three things:

1) Re-write the story with your own twists

2) Re-write the story the way you think a famous author would have told it

3) Combine two of the tales into something new

When you finish your story, post the first 13 for people to read and reference "Retold" in the heading.

Those who want to read the whole can have it e-mailed to them.

As most faerie tales are fairly short anyways, maybe we could limit it to 3000 words or so. Not too long to write, small attachments and quick reads.

We could set a deadline for the end of August. Plenty of time in case "life" happens. If you have something to post sooner, power to you! Just reference it as a "Retold" story.

Feel free to take issue now


 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
Sounds good Robyn Hood. But do you think we should all post on a single thread? The first post could be an outline of the rules, followed by our thirteen-line posts. Anyone who wants to read can contact us by email instead of posting a request on the thread? We still need some story suggestions.

I thought of:

The Odyssey
The Three Billy Goats Gruff
The Bremen Town Musicians
King Midas
Deadalus and Icharus
The Gift of the Magi
Johnny Appleseed (as suggested by NewsBys)

Any of those sound interesting? And since this whole discussion started out as Kolona pondering on the different ways the same story can be told, I think we should concentrate on a single story--two or three at the VERY most.
I also like Robyn HOod's idea of choosing how you want to do it--twisting, copying the style of someone else, or combining two.

I'd be willing to spearhead this thing, but we need to decide on the story(ies) and how we want to proceed.

[This message has been edited by djvdakota (edited August 04, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by djvdakota (edited August 04, 2004).]
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
I'd agree that we should just pick one. My personal vote from that list would be "King Midas" or "Deadalus and Icharus."
 
Posted by NewsBys (Member # 1950) on :
 
I like the idea of posting all of our first 13 on a single thread. Sounds like it will be easier to organize. I like the basic guidelines outlined in Robyn Hood's post.
King Midas sounds good, I can think of a bunch of things he could turn stuff into, when he touches them.
How about the legend of Johnny Appleseed? He could plant anything and travel in all sorts of lands!
End of August deadline sounds good.
Count me in!
 
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
I like the suggestions so far. Keeping all the 13-liners under one thread would be a good way to keep it from clogging up F&F. Good idea

How about including a more femanine story line as well i.e. Echo & Narcisus or "The Princess and the Pea"?

I'm not familliar with The Odyssey and I'll have to brush up on The Bremen Town Musicians. Guess I have some homework
 


Posted by bladeofwords (Member # 2132) on :
 
I haven't read Deadalus and Icharus but Echo and Narcisus is interesting. I would definitely like to see it limited to one or two stories if possible, that way we would actually be seeing how many ways we could retell the same story. If it works out we could definitely do it more than once. The Odyssey is just way too freaking long to do this.

Looking back I think I like Johnny Appleseed. It leaves all sorts of possibilities open, I mean it's basically just a creation story type of thing. Are we going to try and have any other similarities between the stories than just inspiration?

I wouldn't mind helping organize this if dj needs help or isn't interested. I think it's a good idea to make just one thread or to get our own forum, personally I like having our own forum so that we can all share thoughts on the stories.

Jon

Haha, everybody is just like, "yeah I'll do it if you want." Sooner or later somebody is just gonna have to do it.
 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
How about if I make the assignment?

I think "The Three Billy Goats Gruff" has some interesting potential, especially if you don't restrict yourselves to billy goats.

So that's the assignment.

Write on!
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
Woo-hoo! The challenge is on! August 31st Deadline?
 
Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :
 
I would do it.
 
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
 
I'm definitely in. So are we agreed on a 3,000 word limit? With the option of either twisting or writing under the persona of an established author? Kathleen, you tell us! And should you be the one who starts the thread or does one of us have to?

[This message has been edited by autumnmuse (edited August 05, 2004).]
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
OK, let'see where we stand so far

May I suggest that we all use the 1st of the 3 variants posted in this page http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0122e.html
as our starting point?

Mike
 


Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
 
Newsbys, in re-reading this thread, I noticed your comment about the muses. Sorry, I didn't thank you for pointing that out.

So, thank you. I'll be putting that idea in my file.

August 31 for "Three Billy Goats Gruff"? I'm in.
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
Sounds great! Hey, welcome to my Tasmanian friend, Hoptoad!

I think it's also important to post an introduction/invitation that establishes the rules.

Something like:

***

The First Annual Hatrack Re-Write Challenge!

Welcome! This thread is the brain child of a discussion that began in the Open Discussions section of this forum. There Kolona began a discussion concerning how essentially the same tale can be told in so many different ways.

And the Re-Write challenge was born.

Here is the challenge:

1. Re-Write the story, Three Billy Goats Gruff, (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0122e.html) in one of three ways:
*Twist the story to suit your own creative bent. And, as Kathleen suggested, don't restrict yourselves to goats and ogres.
*Write the story in the style of another well-known author.
*Combine the tale with another tale of your choosing.

2. Submit the first 13 lines to this thread.

3. Anyone wanting to read a submitted story may contact the writer by email.
Do NOT post the request on this thread.
Do NOT post comments of any kind on this thread.
A separate thread will be opened in Open Discussions after the deadline for discussing the submitted stories.

4. 3000 word limit.

5. August 31, 2004 deadline.

6. It is suggested that anyone participating read the original thread in Open Discussions titled Same Old Same New, by Kolona.


***

How's that? Did I leave anything out?

 


Posted by bladeofwords (Member # 2132) on :
 
sounds good to me.
 
Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
 
I like it.
 
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
Sounds good but this is the "first ever" challenge, not "first annual". You can't have a first annual, it isn't annual until the second one

(Okay, okay, my journalism instructors pounded that into my head and I just can't shake it. I'll be quiet now )
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
Got it. Edit to First Ever.

So, I'm going to take the initiative and post it.
 


Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
 
quote:
Sounds good but this is the "first ever" challenge, not "first annual". You can't have a first annual, it isn't annual until the second one
(Okay, okay, my journalism instructors pounded that into my head and I just can't shake it. I'll be quiet now )


Well, I'd like to dispute what your journalism professors told you.

I'm going to propose (hypothetically) six writing challenges (collectively known as the Eric James Stone writing challenges) with periodic deadlines.

One challenge will have a deadline every day at 5:00pm Mountain Time.

One challenge will have a deadline of 6:30pm Mountain Time every Saturday.

One challenge will have a deadline of 11:59pm Mountain Time on the last day of each month.

One challenge will have a deadline of 5:00pm Mountain Time on the last weekday of March, June, September, and December.

One challenge will have a deadline of 8:00pm Mountain Time on every June 30 and December 31.

One challenge will have a deadline of 12 noon Mountain Time every August 15.

You will notice that the deadlines for these six challenges recur on a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi-annual and annual basis.

Now, it would be very messy if I had to refer to each of the first instances of these challenges as the "first ever," without making reference to their expected recurrences: I would have six indistinguishable "first ever" challenges.

If something is expected to recur on a regular basis, then information about its expected recurrence is relevant. "First ever" is less informative than "first annual," "first weekly," or "first quadrennial." In fact, in most cases "first ever" is redundant, because the fact of being first, without further qualification, necessarily means that there was not something before.
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
OK, you two duke it out and when a victor has emerged I'll edit (or not) as necessary. Let me know.
 
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
I guess in the case at hand, how do we know that we will make this an annual event? We may think it's what we want but next year who's to say we'll do it again. On the other hand, we may decide this is a challenge that we want to issue every month. Then it would be a monthly challenge. Or it may become a periodic challenge.

Now in the example of six different challenges... Well essentially you do have six "first" challenges. However if you are issuing the same challenge with six different due dates that recur, then you actually have one challenge with six submission options. If each deadline group represents a different challenge subject then you would change your title to i.e. The First EricJamesStone Fantasy Challenge, The First EricJamesStone Sci-Fi Challenge, The First EricJamesStone Spec-Fic Challenge, etc.

Does it any of it really matter? No. Do I really care? No. Do I like discussing semantics ? Absolutely .

The word "ever" can be edited out as, yes, it is redundant. I only included it because it provides the same poetic lilt in the sentence as "annual".
 


Posted by Warrior Poet (Member # 2139) on :
 
I'm new here, people. But never-the-less, let's ROCK N' ROLL!!!

WP
 


Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
I wrote my story in a few hours this afternoon; posted the first 13 lines in the designated topic on the Fragments and Feedback board.

Of course, I did it purely for a laugh and it does amuse me (and my wife, too). I used our back garden for the scenario I created; seemed a good place at the time. Good fun. And a good idea to rework an old story like this. I hope others take up the challenge.

Readers wanted.

HSO
 


Posted by shadowynd (Member # 2077) on :
 
Send it on, HSO! I'm at a point now that I can breathe again. *G*

And THIS time, I'll try to actually *finish* my review before I send it off! Though I understand this is more for fun than an in-depth crit.

I'm still trying to decide which permutation I want to write, and if I want to do it in any particular style. A number of ideas have come to mind, just a matter of choosing one! Or ah.. can we do more than one?

Susan
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
send it my way, please. text, .rtf or .doc format please
 
Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
mike... your earthlink has warned me that it has possibly blocked me... please advise if you've received the story. My email is aquilarift@(NOSPAM)hotmail.com if you need to add it to your safe list.

Cheers,

HSO
 


Posted by Jeraliey (Member # 2147) on :
 
PLEASE make this a monthly thing! I'm completely intrigued, but I'm also completely swamped for this month. (The MCAT loometh.) It sounds like a lot of fun, though!

Robyn Hood, I would hazard to say that you have a future in analytic philosophy
 


Posted by GavinLoftin (Member # 1966) on :
 
Hey all,
Im new to the forums, and I just finished reading about the rewrite challenge. Sounds intriguing.
I would love to read your rerwite HSO, send it over.
 
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
 
HSO, I'm up for it if you don't mind.
 
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
 
I wonder if any of us will use the same interpretations? I might have been a bit ambitious with mine because I'm stuck in the middle. I can understand my character, but I don't know enough about his profession to write about it, so I have to research. Bummer. Actually I love research, but not in the heat of a writing spree. Aargh. Ah well, hopefully mine will be posted in the next couple days.
 
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
 
Well, that was faster than I thought. I posted the beginning under F&F, called "Or My Name's Not Big Bob", let me know what you think or if you want to read it. I kind of hope this character isn't true to life actually. Just let me know if what he does is TOO implausible, but I'm aware that it is an exaggerated stereotype. Thanks!
 
Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
Gavin, you'll need to put an email address in your profile if you want anyone to contact and send stories to you.

Everyone, maybe we should just stick with email requests for the stories we've written, rather than requesting in this topic.

Additionally, in my case, be sure to put "hatrack" in your email subject so it will always bypass my spam filter. In fact, that's a good idea for all email communications between all of us here on Hatrack -- it makes it really easy to see where an email is coming from if we don't recognize an address.

Just a thought.
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
Good thought, HSO. I'll edit the Rewrite rules to include that.

And yes, as HSO says, please make requests for reads by emailing the submitter directly through their email link.

Thanks.
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
So, what happens once we all submit our brilliant ;-) work? Do we just stop? Are we going to talk and/or bicker about each others interpretations? Have a cyber awards ball? Paint our bottoms blue and pretend to be British?

What?
 


Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
Since I live in London, that last suggestion doesn't sound like it would be all that thrilling: I can do that every night!

No, if we are to pretend to be British, then our best and wisest course of action would be to head down to the pub for a few pints -- or sodas if you don't drink -- to celebrate. Then, it would be off to the curry house (Indian restaurant) for a Vindaloo (if you're game for something hot and spicy), and then out to a different pub or seven; eventually staggering in sometime before midnight, because most pubs close around 11pm. That is, of course, if you survived the Tube ride home... or the curry.
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
I'm dying to read the stories that are posted, but I feel like I want to get mine written first.

HSO, what's with the billboards in London that say, "Butter my bottom and call me a bisuit?" I love the phrase and have no idea what it means.
 


Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
I don't know, Mary. I haven't noticed them, but I'll ask my wife in the morning. She's English: she'll know. Maybe. If she doesn't, I'll ask my friend Alex if he knows. We'll solve this mystery for you somehow.

Strangely, biscuits are the equivalent of American cookies, but they can also be a type of cracker. And a common thing to do here is butter your crackers (biscuits) when having cheese and crackers. I suspect the ad is referring to that much, but as for its true meaning: no idea.

Anyway, I also suspect that many people are holding out on reading others' stories until they've first written their own. That could be one explanation for the few requests I've received...
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
I, personally, am waiting to finish mine before I request others'. I don't want mine to be influenced by yours and it's kinda like a big buildup to the end of the month, ya know? I imagine that by August 31st we'll all have a great many requests. I hope.

To answer your question, mikemunsill, at the end of the month, once everyone has submitted, I'm planning on starting a thread on Open Discussions for everyone to talk about what we've accomplished and for non-participating readers to let us know what they thought. We can chat for a while, then hit the pubs (or ice cream parlors here in Utah where we get fat instead of drunk) to celebrate.


 


Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
One thing I miss about Utah -- other than the beautiful Wasatch Mountains -- is pizza parlors that offer Ranch dressing as a dipping sauce for your pizza. Most everywhere else in the world, it is unheard of and/or scoffed at.

I've done my best to be a proper missionary: I've converted many a soul to the wonders of Ranch on pizza... I fear this will be a life-long mission.

[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 10, 2004).]
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
YUP!! Ranch on Pizza. But then that only reiterates my point about getting fat instead of drunk, doesn't it?
 
Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
I'm fairly thin-framed, eat healthily 95% of the time, and still my wife insists I go to the gym 3x a week, at least 20 mins of cardio each time (bah!), so that I may live a long and happy life with a strong heart. Thus, I do not feel guilty about a little ranch on my pizza. Bring it on!
 
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
I've read all the 13-line openers and can't wait to read the stories. I've also decided to wait until mine is written before I take a read.

This sure is fun and really quite challenging.

I don't know about monthly re-writes but every couple of months this would be a good exercise. Re-write one month, discussion the following month.
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
I'm certainly game for more rewrites in future. We've certainly had a lot of people interested.

And to HSO:

Ah, to be thin framed. Alas, after three babies and genetics against me, I've put on some extra padding that DOES NOT wish to leave me. I try. How I try. I'm fit--I bike, I lift, I hike, I walk. I TRY to eat right. But my fat loves me too much. So I still have to feel guilty over that ranch on my pizza.
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
In a month or so, I wonder if editors are going to be saying, "Where did all these billy goats gruff stories come from?"
 
Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
I think we should self-edit and self-publish our own stories in a collection of some sort. "We don't need no stinkin' publishers!"

Dakota: Unfortunately, childbearing can and often does change a woman's metabolism and body such as you described. Coupled with the fact that women do store fat more easily than men (for the reason of having children) as you suggested [genetics], it's often unavoidable to put on extra weight. You're body is readying itself for a fourth, I suspect. But rest assured in the knowledge that you've had 3 miracles...

Well, depending on one's perspective, miracles may be the wrong word.

[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 12, 2004).]
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
I call my brother's kids, Birthcontrol 1, 2 and 3.
 
Posted by Jules (Member # 1658) on :
 
On the "butter my bottom and call me a biscuit" subject, there's a vague explanation here. It revolves around marketing executives, so it isn't really possible for us mortals to comprehend exactly what they were thinking, but it gives the general idea...

http://www.brandrepublic.com/digitalbulletin/news_story.cfm?articleID=212234&Origin=DB28052004

And I've got to ask now ... what _is_ Ranch dressing?
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
Jules

That's when Texas corporate executives butter their buttocks with a particular type of salad dressing, mistakenly thinking that it will make them more palatable to each other as they proceed on their interminable rounds of butt-kissing. At their self-congratulatory rodeos (Vietnam vets insert the appropriate pithy phrase here) they can even end up in a daisy-chain with their heads all inserted and all loudly proclaiming that they can see light at the end of the tunnel.

Unfortunately, that behavior has also spread to the rest of corporate America.


 


Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
ranch dressing is a salad dressing/cream usually made with buttermilk, oil, pepper, garlic, onion, and a few choice herbs and such... plus stabilizers and perservatives, probably. Go organic if you can...

In the UK, I've only found one maker of ranch, and that's Cardini's -- it even has a little US flag on it. Sainsbury's carries it.
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
I don't know if self-publishing is the way to go, but I've been thinking about a collection too. It would be neat to put out a Hatrack Re-write Collection. Because of the number of contributors it probably wouldn't be profitable, but it would be fun
 
Posted by goatboy (Member # 2062) on :
 
As to getting fat, a number of years ago, I quit drinking. A couple of years ago, I quit smoking. These two things caused me to gain 50 pounds. Now I'm on this diet that caused me to quit eating.

I fear what I will have to quit next.

 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
baaaaaaah!
 
Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
Another little miracle? Bite your tongue!

Actually, I would have had six or seven little miracles by now. Unfortunately, my body not only doesn't know how to lose weight, it also doesn't know how to have a healthy pregnancy. I was in bed for a month with # 3. A number four could mean the end of me. Literally.

Ah, well. I can enjoy the three I have with greater energy.

I think the anthology thing is a GREAT idea.
 


Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :
 
So let's focus on a hatrack anthology, then. All we truly need is our own webspace to host it. I can certainly help with any HTML formatting if need be, and I'd be glad to do so, time permitting.

Sure, it's not being published, but it's worthwhile, in my opinion. You'll be able to link your family and friends to your story -- those that have internet access, that is; most probably do these days. [How much has changed in ten years? Makes me think back to when I first read Ender's Game in '90 and I thought: Wow, what a novel concept OSC has come up with... little did I know then that it was already happening. Now look at us? We're nearly there, if not already.]

Basically, there's no reason why we can't compile our stories into some sort of website if everyone agrees. 'Course that could be the hard part... but let's cross that bridge when we get to it.


 


Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
 
The anthology idea sounds cool. Count me in.


 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
An anthology sound good to me, but I think we'd better be sure to check with the powers that be before we put "Hatrack" on anything!

[Earth to Kathleen! Earth to Kathleen! Houston calling!]

That said, I have a largely unused website parked at www.munsil.net that I'll offer up, complete with a forum. We can either modify the index page completely, or put a link to the anthology on that page, as people want, OR if nobody wants to do that, I'll pay for a year for a hosted site, if other folks will compensate me with website maintenance, continued good humor, advice and or salacious stories...

[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 12, 2004).]
 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
Didn't I say somewhere that I was out of town and would be a while catching up on stuff?

Anyway, I'd have to check with OSC about you all using the Hatrack name--it's the name of his publishing company, and I don't think he'd appreciate you doing any publishing in its name without his permission.

You could call it a writers workshop publication, if you like. I think that's generic enough not to be a problem.
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
hehehe

figured that would get her attention

that works for me
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
OK, we have 8 now. Any more out there?

Guess we'll just have to wait till the 31st, then. Next time, maybe we'll just give ourselves 2 weeks?
 


Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
 
Perhaps I'll catch the next one, I'm a little pressed at the moment. (or if I find the time I'll get on this one.)
 
Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
Regarding my story for the rewrite challenge, it needs major rework, and I wil do that, and here is the background that I will be working from. A mini-worldbuilding exercise, if you will.

quote:

The story is set in Bridgetown, which is reached by taking the 3rd way off a major bridge located near a mid-sized human town, somewhere in the countryside. That is, in a world sideways to ours. The occupants of Bridgetown are just your ordinary fantastical creatures, trolls, wereanimals, vampires, etc. who are mostly active at night, and sleep during the day. Although, they have their own who prefer daylight, their daywalkers are strictly in the minority. Also, the inhabitants of Bridgetown are not averse to plying their wares and services, and slaking their appetites, on each other, as the occasion suits their individual temperaments.

The Gruff family includes Billie, a late teenage adrenaline-addicted female who makes money as a gravedigger, her older brother Willy, by occupation a 'perverse' strangler, and their oldest brother William, a bartender and poisoner. None of which makes them fantastical creatures, except that their family also runs to weregoats. It's a family trait.

The bridge is very important, because it is the only 'official' path from their world to ours, and they cannot exist without the trade (mostly in services and exotics) with humans, and of course, the occasional snack or two of human flesh that some of the more 'savage' were indulge in. There are other paths, but they are smuggler's routes and are dangerous, difficult, and what is worse, expensive routes to and from the human world.

At the start of the story, Willie has been approached by a stranger while sitting in the Gruff family bar, indulging in a mid-morning quaff of brew before hitting the sack. The stranger has heard that the Bridge is temporarily closed and the Gruffs had something to do with it, and wanted to know the whole story. Willy has yet once again been sucked into trying to clear up one of Billie's messes, and eventual William is drawn into the fray to defend the family name. No one EVER wants William involved, as his solutions tend to be somewhat drastic, and in any case, he's the bartender at the most popular bar in town, not to mention a poisoner. Wisest to stay on his good side.


Now, once I figure out how to get all that worked in, the story will read better.

[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 21, 2004).]
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
That's some interesting background. I think it would definitely help flesh out your story. The original was pretty short so you have plenty of room to build within the 3000 words.

Good luck. Let us know when you have it ready, I'd enjoy seeing how it comes together.
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
Sounds interesting, Mike. Can't wait to read it! ONLY EIGHT MORE DAYS, EVERYONE!!

One thing that stuck in my craw was that they keep trade routes open with the humans but still snack on them occasionally. So why don't the humans all cut off trade with these horrid creatures who are using them for their steaks and chops and ground...well, ground human, I suppose? Doesn't seem all that smart, let alone good business, to me. Maybe if there were a few unscrupulous humans who managed the trade with this world and maybe even provided the odd tasty morsel for the beasts? I just don't think I buy that these things leave their world for trade--hunting, sure, at night, under cover.

Geez, I'm rambling. But I guess the picture I'm getting from your outline is that these critters head on out to the human world on market day to sell their wares. And it doesn't seem to put any kind of damper on that activity when they creatures once in a while bung off with a tender juicy child or two once in a while.

I'm sure that's not what you intended--so hard to tell from outlines. But just in case it was a hole you hadn't noticed, I thought I'd put in my totally worthless half-pence.
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
quote:
HSO, what's with the billboards in London that say, "Butter my bottom and call me a bisuit?" I love the phrase and have no idea what it means.

I was just reading back through the thread and came upon this. I didn't think much of it at the time but my interpretation would be that it is an exclaimation of disbelief like:

Something like that anyways.
-----
Mikemunsil,

Would it only be the were-animals who participate in commerce between the two worlds as they can pass for human? This could also be great hunting stratgy, however, I'm not sure how much of that will play into your story.

[This message has been edited by Robyn_Hood (edited August 23, 2004).]
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
djvdakota

quote:
One thing that stuck in my craw was that they keep trade routes open with the humans but still snack on them occasionally. So why don't the humans all cut off trade with these horrid creatures who are using them for their steaks and chops and ground...well, ground human, I suppose? Doesn't seem all that smart, let alone good business, to me. Maybe if there were a few unscrupulous humans who managed the trade with this world and maybe even provided the odd tasty morsel for the beasts? I just don't think I buy that these things leave their world for trade--hunting, sure, at night, under cover.

I figured that mostly human appearing Bridgetowners used the trading route (main bridge) to trade and sell their skills. But, as among us, there are also predators, and they sneak across when they can, to prey upon the humans. This gives rise to the human tales of werewolves, etc. The Bridgetowners know about the 3rd way onto and off the bridge, but keep it secret, as that way they can collect all the tolls. The only humans that cross are those who wander over by accident, which is a one-way trip. The troll is there to enforce the bridge policies, and act as backup to the dreaded 'accountants' (a distinct and unsavory subspecies) as they collect the tolls.

Robyn_Hood

quote:
Would it only be the were-animals who participate in commerce between the two worlds as they can pass for human? This could also be great hunting stratgy, however, I'm not sure how much of that will play into your story.

No, I figure that the humans that wandered over and stayed, also trade. And I thought that some obviously non-humans would also cross, but not at the main bridge, which is patrolled and taxed. I hadn’t intended for the predation to play a part in this story, but it will in future stories set in this mini-verse.

All

You are hereby invited to ‘play’ in Bridgetown, if you so desire.

[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 24, 2004).]
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
Okay, so I drive through Crazy, take a left at the first stop sign, drive for about a mile or so and then take another left which should bring me to the bridge into Bridgeland? Or is two rights and then a left... Better stop and ask for directions up at that gas station. My, they sure do have some big dogs around these parts...
 
Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
Wow, Mike. This sounds great!

And huge!

How hard is it shaping up to be to keep this under 3000 words?

Phew! I'm sweating for you!
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
LOL

Anybody who has suffered through reading some of my 'writing' knows that too many words is the LAST thing I need to worry about. Unless it's a prologue, of course.

I will find a way, because, I have a Hatrack Utility Belt!!
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
COUNTDOWN TIME, EVERYONE!!!

ONLY SEVEN MORE DAYS!!
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
Yay! I'm looking forward to discussing some of the different takes on this story. We definitely need to do this again.
 
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
 
Does this mean that those of us who submitted our stories need to have them revised by then? I am changing the ending of "Big Bob" a bit, and doing some other changes as well. I'd hate to have y'all judge it just by the first version, because I think the second one will be much better. (You can tell by the future tense that I'm not done yet.) Also, will we then re-post, or put them on the other site, or what?
 
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
For those who are doing revisions, you could probably revise your original post. At the top you could make a note, something like:

AN UPDATED VERSION OF THIS STORY IS AVAILABLE

Revisions should probably be completed as close to the deadline as possible. If it takes a couple of days longer it won't be the end of the world, as long as we have a version to begin discussion.

What does everyone else think?
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
I think that sounds like a good plan.
 
Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
Lead the way, Robyn Hood, and your merry men will follow you.
 
Posted by shadowynd (Member # 2077) on :
 
Mention was made earlier of self-publishing an anthology of our rewrites on the web.

If someone is planning on trying to publish their story, or expanding their work into a longer, possibly novel-length work, should that one offer their tale for inclusion into the anthology?

I know at least one person indicated their story was the beginning of their WIP, and I have some ideas for expanding mine.

Susan


 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
ONLY TWO MORE DAYS, PEOPLE!!!

Yes, I think all revisions should be finished by the 31st, because some of us (me for one) might be more interested in moving on to another challenge rather than spending another MINUTE revising this one. But we'll have to make it clearer in future challenge rules that stories and revisions will be due by the deadline.

(My sister gave me a great idea for a new challenge--I'll reveal it in later discussions.) Or would that make me an unreliable narrator?


 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
I also have had a few ideas for another challenge but I figured they could wait until after discussion has more or less wrapped-up on this one.

About the anthology... I Like the idea but I've had a few thoughts about possibly submitting mine to a few markets. I guess those who want to could opt out. If we're even thinking about doing it still
 


Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
 
TICK, TICK, TICK, TICK!!!

(I wish I could make the letters bigger)

ONE MORE DAY!!!!

I'll plan on opening the discussion area tomorrow evening or Wednesday morning.
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
Wednesday morning please, 'cause at midnight tomorrow my finger will be hitting the 'enter' key as I finish my revision.
 
Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
No one has written a '3 Billy Goats Gruff' story yet, about the trials and tribulations of an email as it attempts to get past my spamblocker.
 
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
LOL! I've actually had few different ideas about how to do the re-write but only completed the one. I thought about writing outlines, but the one story was really naughty so I decided to leave well enough alone .

I'm definitely looking forward to the discussion. This is almost like Christmas!
 


Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
 
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGH!!!

No, no, it can't be time already! I haven't finished my revision yet. I was working so hard on my other stuff and celebrating my first rejection with a handwritten note and - NO!

*curls up into a fetal position and sucks her thumb*

Seriously, though. I don't have much to change, just the beginning. I can have it done tomorrow and available tomorrow evening.

Edit: It looks like I can have it up on Hatrack early this afternoon. I know, I know, it's not enough time for everyone to read. It's the principle of the thing.

[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited August 31, 2004).]
 


Posted by punahougirl84 (Member # 1731) on :
 
Oh dear, I should have been keeping up on this thread, and not just the one on F&F (yes, we were told, I messed up!).

- When living in Hawaii, a lovely girl from Australia intro'd me to thousand island dressing on fries. I preferred Ranch, and loved it. I had sailing class every week (from age 8-18) and we had a lunch break. When the orders came out, I always requested some ranch dressing to go with my fries. My friends tried it, and pretty soon the servers were bringing a bowl of dressing every time without us asking. TWENTY-FIVE years later, I returned, and was at the club during the sailing class lunch break. Their lunches came out, complete with a bowl of Ranch dressing! The kids don't even know why - it's a tradition. Guess I've done my bit for obesity in America...

- Ok, now to the real stuff. AUGH! I'm guessing we were SUPPOSED to offer critiques after reading each other's work? I wasn't sure, so perhaps I shortchanged some people who didn't specifically ask for comments (for those who did, I provided them). So I apologize in advance, and will happily do so even at this late date... I'll recheck my e-mail to see who I owe

Any reason we can't keep revising past the deadline? Are we supposed to submit completed stories somewhere, or are we just discussing what we did?

I am significantly sleep-deprived - thanks for putting up with me!
 


Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
 
Don't worry! I know that some people wanted crits done and others didn't ask. Personally, I just did this as a writing exercise and wasn't looking for crits, I figured I could wait to hear people's opinions until the end of the month. Based on some of the feedback I have gotten, I may edit it a bit try submitting to a few markets. I'll decide after we get some discussion going.

Tomorrow!!!!! Dakota's going to set up a discussion thread so we can talk about the different angles we used, inspirations, the variety of interpretation, etc.

quote:
♫Tomorrow, tomorrow. ♪I love ya, tomorrow.♪ You're only a day away!♫♪

[This message has been edited by Robyn_Hood (edited August 31, 2004).]
 


Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
 
quote:
No one has written a '3 Billy Goats Gruff' story yet, about the trials and tribulations of an email as it attempts to get past my spamblocker.

I was going to ask you about that, mikemunsil. Should I have clicked the link I was sent to get added to your list of trustworthies?
 


Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
 
Me and my spamblocker. sigh...

I will always see the email anyway because I routinely check the "suspects" list, but clicking that link just makes it a LOT easier.

You're in good company, however. Various authors I do research for have also had to "click the link", to get through.
 




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