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SLIPSTREAM: I want stories that paint pictures of reality, but twist those pictures into bizarre tableaux. Think along the lines of how peoples' views of reality and the events that constitute that reality can be very different.
Instead, this is a kind of writing which simply makes you feel very strange; the way that living in the late twentieth century makes you feel, if you are a person of a certain sensibility. We could call this
kind of fiction Novels of Postmodern Sensibility, but that looks pretty bad on a category rack, and requires an acronym besides; so for the sake of convenience and
argument, we will call these books "slipstream."
"Slipstream" is not all that catchy a term, and if this young genre ever becomes an actual category I doubt it will use that name, which I just coined along with my friend Richard Dorsett. "Slipstream" is a
parody of "mainstream," and nobody calls mainstream "mainstream" except for us skiffy trolls.
Nor is it at all likely that slipstream will
actually become a full-fledged genre, much less a commercially successful category. The odds against it are stiff. Slipstream authors must work outside the cozy infrastructure of genre magazines, specialized genre criticism, and the authorial esprit-de-corps of a common genre cause.
And vast dim marketing forces militate against the commercial success of slipstream. It is very difficult for these books to reach or build their own native audience, because they are needles in a vast moldering haystack. There is no convenient way for
would-be slipstream readers to move naturally from one such work to another of its ilk. These books vanish like drops of ink in a bucket of drool.
From what HSO wrote, it makes sense that slipstream would be like slipping out of the mainstream or slipping between streams of spec fic. Something simillar to cross-genre only stranger.
Think I'll write to some mag that solicits slipstream and ask for a definitive example/explanation. Or even invite an editor here to explain it to us!
Susan
That's my two cents.
Jon
Note: I didn't write the above explanation of slipstream... I just copied and pasted it from the linked article.
http://www.ideomancer.com/ft/DeGuzman-Slipstream/DeGuzman-Slipstream.htm
I read that the movie "Being John Malkovich" is a more current example of pure slipstream.
Kind of a tilt-your-head, just-slightly-off kind of story. Maybe with a "huh" moment or three!
Another quote, from fictionfactor.com: "When genres -- horror, fantasy, science, and speculative fiction -- start slipping into one another the Brits call it (appropriately) 'slipstream.'"
Seems hard to define. Maybe if what you write is hard to define, not quite cross-genre, you've written slipstream.
EDIT: Bruce Sterling coined the phrase, btw, so that may be the best you can get!
[This message has been edited by punahougirl84 (edited August 09, 2004).]
"Slipstream: This genre is difficult to define, so it's safe to say that if you don't know what it is, but know it's speculative fiction, it's slipstream. Stories that cross genres, sociological science fiction, alternative history, and magical realism all fit within the slipstream genre."
Jon
I guess there's just not a better place to put them and SF has always been a little more easy-going than other genres.
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Fiction that deals, often playfully and self-referentially, with the writing of fiction or its conventions.
Think John Barth or Kurt Vonnegut.
The Dark Tower a very interesting read all the same. I love it. My husband is finding it very disturbing, but is also loving it. It also reads so smoothly its like drinking chocolate.
R
[This message has been edited by RFLong (edited August 10, 2004).]
Thanks for reading.
Indeed, it was a pleasure looking this up, because not only could I help shed some light on it, but I also learned something from it. Could life be any better? Maybe.
http://www.qub.ac.uk/en/imperial/india/Magic.htm
It is my sincerest wish, sir, that this article (and its first paragraph) will answer your question most satisfactorily. If it does not, I shall be forced to prostrate myself and beg for your most generous forgiveness.
Ever in your debt,
HSO
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 10, 2004).]
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A chiefly literary style or genre originating in Latin America that combines fantastic or dreamlike elements with realism
Or
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genre of meticulously realistic painting of imaginary scenes and fantastic images
Alice Thomas Ellis' The 27th Kingdom (1982) is the only one I can think of at the moment. Contains the great line
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Kyril fed the pigeons. He gave them peanuts, for reasons of his own
I may be misquoting, but I always loved those two lines. But that's beside the point.
Bartleby credits Alejo Carpentier as the founder of Magical Realism - author of The Kingdom of This World (1942) and Lord, Praised Be Thou! (1933).
there's a good article here
http://www.writing-world.com/sf/realism.shtml
I particularly like
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fantasy that readers who "don't read escapist literature" will happily read
I was looking in the Writer's Digest and there are publications that will take slipstream, but not SF. Curious, eh?
I contend she did see this topic and neglected to thank me for my considerable efforts.
Should I care? No. Do I really care if she thanks me. No. Am I making a point here? Yes. Anyone care to venture a guess as to what that may be?
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 10, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited August 10, 2004).]
Thanks for sharing your opinion, but you're wrong.
Next!
Edit: Too late, I saw it... and noted.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited August 10, 2004).]
Usually my self-editing stops me before I post snippy replies, but not that time.
Christine has been on this forum for quite some time, and has put a lot of effort into answering people's questions. I've never seen her complain that someone didn't thank her for her efforts.
She's earned a lot of good will from the people here, and I don't think you have anything to gain by continuing to draw attention to the issue of whether she has given you the thanks you feel you deserve. I suggest you drop the subject.
You've got a stick up your rear-end.
Man, I'm so good at this game.
(Please, oh please, take that as a joke.)
I can only speak for myself, but if I posted a question I would certainly be *thinking* thank you to anyone that answered it, but I might not post it just because I hate frivilous posts that essentially say nothing but take up space and everyone's valuable reading time. Just imagine if we posted a "thanks" every single time any person gave us feedback, answered a question, made a suggestion, posted something of interest to us, etc. At least half the posts would be nothing more than "Gee, thanks!!" and the bulletin boards would be boring indeed!
HSO, I'm sure Christine is grateful to any and all contributions to her knowledge, as am I! (that's an official thank you, dear fellow. *G*)
Now everyone shake hands, group hug and all that stuff, and let's get back to positive contributions!
Oh, btw.. thanks also to Christine for bringing this to our attention. I certainly have learned from it!
Susan
[This message has been edited by shadowynd (edited August 10, 2004).]
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Magical realism:A chiefly literary style or genre originating in Latin America that combines fantastic or dreamlike elements with realism
"Cien años de Soledad", by Gabriel García Márquez is a good example. It has been well translated into English, as "One Hundred Years of Solitude", with one of the better opening lines I have read.
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"Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel Aureliano Buendía was to remember that distant afternoon when his father took him to discover ice."
If you're interested in magical realism, you might wish to read it. A dilapidated paperback edition can be bought from Amazon for as little as $1.04! Plus shipping. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060929790/002-8244283-6821665?v=glance
[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 10, 2004).]
I've not had a great day, so I apologize for having a stick up my ass... wetwilly, thanks for letting me borrow your stick. Hit the spot and I'm much grateful.
Eric... should it matter how long someone has been on a particular forum, or how well respected they are? Manners are manners after all. Of course, I wouldn't have brought it up in the first place if I had noticed a trend -- a particular problem or issue... anyway...
Notwithstanding, I'm quite sure that Christine is a lovely person and wish her no particular ill will-- we all forget our manners at times; I'm guilty of this more often than I'd care to admit.
Now that I'm relatively stick-free, I'll get back to the very important business of not giving a flying "flamboozle" what anyone else thinks.
Oh, and Eric, that "and noted" part had more to do with your comment about Survivor in the post you deleted. Just wanted to make sure that was clear in case there was any potential for misunderstanding.
The Matrix would qualify as SF/Magic Realism V. Theology. Doesn't it?
Highlander movies and television show.
Buffy the Vampire movies and show.
Angel.
Charmed.
All of those are magic realism in contemporary times.
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You just want to see me prostrate, don't you?
Now WHY would anyone want to see your prostate??? Yeesh!! First your ass sticking up, now your prostate! For heaven's sake, man, cover up!! *VBG*
Susan
Buffy, Highlander etc. would be more in the dark urban fantasy vein.
Here's a link to a very good essay on it:
http://www.writing-world.com/sf/realism.shtml
("Like Water for Chocolate" made me think of it, Mary.)
Its actually a really hard one to define, because I think its a perculiarly "literary" genre that doesn't translate well into tv/film. Possibly something like "American Gothic" (if anyone else remembers that), or even the dreaded "Twin Peaks" (although I hesitate at that).
R
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If a magazine editor these days asks for contributions that are magical realism, what she's really saying is that she wants contemporary fantasy written to a high literary standard---fantasy that readers who "don't read escapist literature" will happily read. It's a marketing label and an attempt to carve out a part of the prestige readership for speculative works.
Basically, the current definition appears to be very well written fantasy. A "Literary" work.
No. I don't agree. Go read Snow White, then go read One Hundred Years of Solitude. Then compare the two beauties in the stories, and how they are presented to you.
This may be grossly stereotypical, but here is what I think the difference is:
- In fantasy, the writer presents a set of magical rules wherein the characters work and play. Hopefully, he or she does it well enough that the reader understands the rules, and buys into them. Then, of course, the writer must work within the rules to deliver the story, or the reader understandably feels cheated.
- On the other hand, the magical reality author may present a similar scenario/sequence of events, but in a bit of an offhand manner, and does NOT prepare and deliver a set of rules to the reader so that the reader can reasonably forecast the outcome. If the reader expected fantasy, they might well feel cheated, but if the author never made that social contract with the reader in the first place (the way we do in fantasy) then he shouldn't. He may feel a bit dislocated, but then, that's magical realism!
So, I think I've thoroughly confused myself, and perhaps someone would step in to clarify what I think I'm saying? Or correct me?
G'night.
[edited to correct my abominable typing]
[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 10, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited August 10, 2004).]
I don't think you quite have it (or else I don't) but Magical Realism isn't Fantasy per se. Its more about a heightened sense of reality portrayed in a fairytale or magical way. Its not set in the real world but it isn't what you'd call traditional fantasy either. Perhaps its fantasy that breaks its own rules?
Another link is Mr Magical Realism (I kid you not)
http://www.pantarbe.com/mrmagicrealism/#what
There is a long list of films he feels fall into the category, including Big Fish, Like Water for Chocolate, Amelie, Chocolat, What Dreams May Come and Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
Also articles, author lists etc - probably everything you could want to know about it.
The other alternative is that its literary fantasy for snobs who wouldn't admit to reading/writing sf/f - Oryx & Crake anyone?
I think "Big Fish" could fit that genre, because it is a fantasic representation of events that are supposed to be real. The final scene in the graveyard, where we see the people that the father has described and learn that he only exagerated the events.
Magical realism typically has incredibaly beautiful language, and it also finds miracles in real life. Coincidences take on magical significance. Rather than using a metaphor, the allusions are real i.e. when someone is shot their blood actually does run through the streets looking for aid.
As Ruth said, "Amelie" is a beautiful recent example.
Thoughts?
CVG
That said, HSO, I believe you owe me an apology far more than I owe you a thank you. You have been rude to me and frankly you've been snappy with everyone else on this forum across several threads.
There is no etiquette on this forum, nor has there ever been to my knowledge, that asserts that someone has to provide a "thank you" in response to someone answering a question. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Truthfully, when I throw a question out there I am usually just trying to get people thinking, start a conversation, or make people aware of something. In this case, I ran across slipstream and thought I must not be the only one who did not know what it was. Obviously, I wasn't, and many people ALMOST benefited from this forum until you threw around yoru holier-than-thou attitude around.
I resent your patronizing tone. I resent your implication that I am rude or overlook my social obligations. Don't be so sure that I'm a "lovely person." I'll tell you what kind of person I am -- honest, blunt, pragmatic, intelligent, hardworking, and caring. Lovely is not on the list nor will it ever be because it doesn't belong anywhere except in the vocabulary of a patronizing 80-year-old.
This forum is for the benefit of all writers who choose to participate, whether through posting or simply through lurking. The "thank you's" we receive are implicit, and come in the form of feeling good about helping those around us. I have never required an explicit thank you for any of the information I have posed here, and though I do ocassionally appreciate the acknolwedgement I will never presume to impose arrogant and presumptive moral standards on those who do not explicitly provide a thank you.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited August 13, 2004).]
For some reason, I was under the impression that slipstream was a fancy way of saying cross-genre and/or unclassifiable. From what has been posted here about it, though, I begin to think it's another way of saying "surreal."
<shrug>
But first: Thank you for taking the time to write out your concerns.
And second (and more importantly): If I've in anyway hurt your feelings, then I sincerely apologize, for that wasn't my intent and it still isn't. My intention was simply to point out that some people (namely me) believe that proper manners should always be observed regardless of the forum in which conversations occur. It is a matter of courtesy, not morals, and anyone can see that if they simply overlooked my brash and arrogant stance and actually read the words I've said about it. There is a difference. By your standards, Christine, I suspect that I would be quite amoral. But, I do not wish to digress any further. On to your points:
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That said, HSO, I believe you owe me an apology far more than I owe you a thank you. You have been rude to me and frankly you've been snappy with everyone else on this forum across several threads.
Answer: I've apologized above for any unintentional hurting of your feelings. I hope that it is adequate, because I cannot apologize for anything I've said. I meant it.
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There is no etiquette on this forum, nor has there ever been to my knowledge, that asserts that someone has to provide a "thank you" in response to someone answering a question.
There should be. For crying out loud. (I would've used other words, but I'm trying to be polite.)
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Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Truthfully, when I throw a question out there I am usually just trying to get people thinking, start a conversation, or make people aware of something. In this case, I ran across slipstream and thought I must not be the only one who did not know what it was.
You're right. We often forget our manners. It happens. Still, it did take me over a half an hour to locate anything useful about slipstream. I did this not only for myself, or you, Christine, but for everyone. I'm actually glad you brought it up, because I do enjoy learning new things.
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Obviously, I wasn't, and many people ALMOST benefited from this forum until you threw around yoru holier-than-thou attitude around.
You shouldn't speak out for other people. They're smart enough to figure out for themselves where the topic has gone off topic, and where the relevant information is. I suggest you consider that for a brief moment.
More importantly, I do not have a holier-than-thou attitude. This would require me to believe in something I do not believe in (gasp!). [And for those doing the gasping, please know that I fully respect your desire to believe in anything you choose; I would never think bad or stupid of anyone for believing in whatever they believed in. Freedom of Choice after all. Please understand.]
Allow me to correct you, Christine: What I am guilty of is being an ass about how I handled it. It's not one of my prouder moments, but hey, I'll live through it somehow.
So will you. Now, you can be offended if you like. You can think whatever you like about me. All of you. It doesn't change the fact that proper manners should be observed at all times.
Call me old-fashioned, but not holier-than-thou. Call me arrogant. Call me tactless. I don't care if you call me a jerk. I'm definitely not holier than anyone. Nor do I think I'm better than anyone. If any of you believe that to be false, then you're fooling yourselves. I'm only concerned with with how I'm perceived; I do not make comparisions against any of you. There would be no point. I'm quite secure in who I am. I would think the rest of you are as well. Am I wrong in that assumption?
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I resent your patronizing tone. I resent your implication that I am rude or overlook my social obligations.
That's quite a bit of resentment you've got. You might want to let it go before it eats at you.
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Don't be so sure that I'm a "lovely person." That's the sort of thing you say when you're being an ass and don't want to make it sound like you are.
I'm not sure about you at all really, but I was basing that on the comments of the fellow hatrackers here, both publicly and privately. They do care much for you, so one would have to conclude that there is something good to care about. Where is the flaw in my logic on that one?
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I'll tell you what kind of person I am -- honest, blunt, pragmatic, intelligent, hardworking, and caring.
Very well, I'll take you on your word. You haven't proved caring part yet to me, but there's still time for that I suppose--but you certainly don't need to either. Depends on you really.
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Lovely is not on the list nor will it ever be because it doesn't belong anywhere except in the vocabulary of a patronizing 80-year-old.
Your mistake here, and yes it is a mistake, is that you forget other cultures and the fact that I am a UK resident. The word lovely is used quite frequently here. I've said lovely more often since moving here a year ago than I've ever said in my entire life. I certainly was not patronizing you. Stop looking into things that are not there (and that goes for a few of you, by the way. Read the words, not your presumed intent of my words. I can't show you expressions or give you any tone of voice. You just have to read the words at face value. Any more than that and you're guilty of false assumptions.)
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This forum is for the benefit of all writers who choose to participate, whether through posting or simply through lurking. The "thank you's" we receive are implicit, and come in the form of feeling good about helping those around us. I have never required an explicit thank you for any of the information I have posed here, and though I do ocassionally appreciate the acknolwedgement I will never presume to impose arrogant and presumptive moral standards on those who do not explicitly provide a thank you.
A thank you takes mere seconds, and in my opinion they aren't implicit. EVER! A thank you implies that you are appreciative of someone's efforts. A thank you implies that you are caring and considerate of other's feelings. A thank you is much more than posting a response in a topic. A thank you wouldn't hurt you, would it?
The funny thing is that the situation is always one in which saying "thank you" is a serious mistake, and not just because it isn't appropriate etiquette. There are certain times when saying "thank you" is not far short of dropping the F-bomb. And other times when it is actually a worse thing to say.