Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Allusions (new topic title)

This is topic Allusions (new topic title) in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

What's the etiquette on referring to other books in your own novel? For example, I wrote a passage (just to write; I had no intention of keeping it, mind) that went something like "I once heard of this story [in a print-less society, citizens wouldn't know what to do with a book, except maybe as firewood] where, when a man dies, another man speaks the truth of his life, to perhaps give it meaning. I thought of doing this for Rock."

Or something like that.

Could I do that, or would it be some form of plagiarism? Or copyright infringment?

CVG

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Chris, that's what is called an "allusion."

If it were a long uncredited quote, it could qualify as plagarism, and if it were a really long quote, it could verge on copyright infringement; but as you have it there (short and sweet summary), it's fine.

By the way, allusions are totally cool because not only do they honor the original author (in a subtle way), but they add depth to your own story, and those readers who recognize what you are alluding to feel especially clever for recognizing it. Those who don't recognize it, still get the benefit of the added depth.

Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

Short and sweet. Huh. Just like me.

Or not. (I'm not that short)

Good to know, KDW. Thanks.

edited to add: I always thought such an allusion would be taken as a lack of originality. "Oh, he couldn't come up with anything on his own, so he "borrowed" from someone else."

But then, I'm paranoid, and self-conscious, and unsure of my abilities as a writer. *shrug*

[This message has been edited by cvgurau (edited September 05, 2004).]

Posted by Jules (Member # 1658) on :

If you dig for them, you'll find them all over the place, particularly in SF.

As an example, Arthur C Clarke's novel 3001 contains a passage describing a discovery made by a scientist in the period between the last book in the series (2051, I think) and this one. The scientist in question? Dr. Susan Calvin, a frequent character in Isaac Asimov stories.

Posted by bladeofwords (Member # 2132) on :

ohh, that's cool. See, you just gotta be sneaky about it. Maybe treat it like it is real, or something. Yeah, like that. Uh huh. Bye

Jon

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Well, the sneakier you are the cooler it is because the smarter the reader feels who figures it out.

I tend to be so sneaky, however, that no one "gets" it. <sigh!> (Except, of course, Survivor--but he hasn't had the opportunity, with my stuff, anyway.)

You don't have to be all that sneaky, if you don't want to.

Didn't someone once say something about the best writers only steal the best ideas? (Or something like that?) Anyway, stealing ideas (and that's basically what allusions are--references in your story to someone else's idea) is a time-honored practice in writing.

You just don't steal anything else, like passages of text or characters or anything that's copyrightable.

Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

"Stealing" is such a harsh word. I like to think of is as "being influenced."

Like "That your painting? It looks like a Van Gogh."

"It was heavily influenced by Van Gogh, yes."

"'Heavily influenced' my eye. It's Starry Night."

Or something similar. *Shrug*

Posted by punahougirl84 (Member # 1731) on :

Well, above my monitor is a print of something called "Vincent's Waikiki" by Scottie J. Flamm - basically Starry Night but with Waikiki, Diamond Head, sailboats in the foreground, and it looks like chalk is the main material to do the sky portion. I love Starry Night - I have a copy of that too. I think Vincent's Waikiki is inspired yet different - yeah, the idea was "used" (I hate to say stolen), but they are different pieces of art. I'd post a link so you could see it, but I can't find it on-line.

I admit to loving catching allusions - Kathleen is right, I feel so smart when I get that "A Ha!"

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

I have to share an allusion I ran across in my reading yesterday.

It was in Laurie King's latest Mary Russell novel, THE GAME. Mary and her husband (I won't tell you who he is, because it really doesn't matter and because you really ought to read the books, but I will say that the first book in the series is THE BEEKEEPER'S APPRENTICE) are getting ready for a costume ball on a cruise. They are enroute to India, so he dresses as a rich Rajah and she dresses in a gorgeous sari, but she can't get her hair to behave. He takes on the task and is very good at it, but the feeling of his hands manipulating her hair is very seductive to her. Rather than let herself be distracted from the costume ball (which is important in their investigation), she says, "I closed my eyes and thought of England" and goes on to describe how cold and miserable the weather was there.

I absolutely hooted at this.

I will wait now for someone else to explain.

Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

I think (I think) it's an allusion to a story about war, although the title, author, protagonist, antagonist, general plot, genre, and picture on the cover elude me.

If I'm wrong, then pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I.E. me.

Posted by cicero (Member # 1602) on :

It sounds a bit like Roger Whittaker's song 'The Last Farewell'.

Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :

No, it was advice given to women in the Victorian age. Young brides were told to do their duty to their husbands, but to make it easier, they were to "close their eyes and think of England."

At least, that's the way I heard it.

Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 1655) on :

quote:
Didn't someone once say something about the best writers only steal the best ideas?

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal.
---T.S. Eliot

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Autumnmuse wins the cupie doll!

And thank you, Avatar300, that's the quote I was thinking of.

Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 1655) on :

You're welcome. I have a word document filled with fifty pages of quotes I have collected, along with many handwritten pages, so I can usually come up with something useful.

If y'all will excuse me, I'm going to get back to lurking.

Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

50 pages.

Wow.

That's a lot of inspiration.

D'you feel like sharing? (via e-mail, I mean)

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Uhg, that crosses the line. I mean, calling it "wifely duty" at least makes it a matter of devotion to your husband. "Duty to the Fatherland/Nation/Party" is just such an appalling thing to call it.

Posted by babylonfreek (Member # 2097) on :

Also a quote I got from somewhere:

quote:
Stealing from one source is called plagiarism. Stealing from several is called research.

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

A line from one of my stories goes.

Even though Uncle Scott was the most placid man Robby had ever met, his thick, red hair stood up from his scalp in such a way that he always looked alarmed.

'Look at you! Every time I see you you're getting bigger. We'll have to put a brick on you head,' he winked, 'Or stop feeding you, or something!' He had a warm, genuine smile that made Robby feel like he was in on a secret. His teeth were wide and blunt but white as china and he eyes were green. 'Bombadil' thought Robby.

This sort of allusion acceptable?

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 13, 2004).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

In this case, I think that you want to make the allusion a bit clearer. "Robby thought he looked like Tom Bombadil" rather than, "'Bombadil' thought Robby."

But of course it's okay either way, in the sense of being entirely permissible.