Hatrack River Writers Workshop: When is it done?

This is topic When is it done? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I'm typing a new topic both because I do have a question I want answered and because I went to the eye doctor today and rather than make it so I could see better he dilated my eyes so I can hardly see anything at all. With any luck, my fingers won't slip off the home keys.

I went to my computer and tried to read everyone's messages but they didn't want to be read.

So....question....mostly with novels. With short stories, I can theoretically send them out to critiquer after critiquer until someone says they like it pretty well. But with novels, I only have a limited number of readers. My parents have my novel right now. (nervous biting nails). I'm sure they'll have some advice on things to change and I'll make some changes and then do some massive editing orunds for grammar, spelling, tightness, etc. But when is it done? Given that you can't just keep sending a novel out again and again and again, at some point the writer has to know that this is a completed manuscripts worthy of the stamps (and heartache) to send it out. How do you know when?

All right...going to do something non-visual for a while will check back tomorrow.

Posted by Snowman (Member # 2204) on :

I guess for a novel, an important step is for the author to read it and think it's done. Allow yourself some time away from the whole thing first. If you think it's done, allow yourself a lot of time before rereading it.

I don't think you want to keep giving your parents/critiquers the same reworked novel over and over again. You want fresh eyes. And there's probably not a huge supply of willing people ready to read and give feedback on a whole novel.

You could work at it chapter at a time, and get feedback on individual chapters. I know it's not the same as reading the whole thing, but it's an idea

Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :

I'm writing my first novel-length work right now, and I'm just now starting to see how the horizon never... gets... closer... so I'll talk to you about "done" in say, ten years?

Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :

It's done when the social contract between you (as author) and the reader is satisfied.

So, what did you promise the reader in the early chapter(s)? Have you fulfilled your promise? If so, it might be a good idea to stop. If not, you might either have to continue, or restructure the work.

I keep referring to the MICE (milieu, idea, character, event) concepts that OSC espouses, not because they're an end in themselves, but because they are useful to give you another viewpoint as you struggle to answer this very question.

Check out this thread also: http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/001353.html

[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited October 26, 2004).]

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Having recently finished reading Lukeman's THE FIRST FIVE PAGES (because someone here recommended it), I would venture to suggest that you could safely consider a novel "done" when you have gone through it with each of the chapters in Lukeman's book in mind.

And, as Mike said, you have made sure that you have fulfilled the promise you made to the reader when you started the book.

Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :

Mike, thanks for that link. That was very helpful, esp. Kathleen's reference to the bright moment/dark moment idea, and the price the protagonist must pay. Of course, that whole "you only thought he was dead" thing is way overdone in movies, but I imagine there are infinite and more subtle ways of using it in fiction.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I'm not sure why you can't just send out your novel for critiques. I've critiqued entire novels before. Probably several people on this forum have done the same.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Actaully, I'm becomming surprised with the number of people who have sugggested that critiquing entire novels is not outside the realm of possibility. I have been loathe to in the past, but then again, in the past I have not needed a return favor! With that bit of knowledge safely tucked away, I may actually call on some of the victims (I mean volunteers) early next year. (I don't want to waste their eyes now when I know it needs so much work and my parents area laready on the case and next month I'm rough drafting novel #2 during NaNovWrMo.)

BTW, when I asked when is a novel done, I wasn't really thinking about when is it over. That goes back to MICE and story promises etc. I think I had that covered in the outline. It was more in reference to the whole thing....knowing when the story is as clean as it can be, as good as it can be, etc.

Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :

Oh! Then it'll never be done. Just done enough.

I actually find it harder to critique a novel chapter by chapter than as a whole. Mind you, critiquing an entire novel is a major effort. If you find that people here are willing to critique the whole thing (and I am), why not divvy it up and ask different people to critique different aspects? That way, it is not as onerous a task. And by now, you should have a good idea on who would provide useful info, or not.

Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :

It sounds like this is your first novel. Something I've heard about first novels is that, like Mike said, they are never done. The first novel is like your baby and you never really want to let it go. You want it to be perfect and for everyone to love it and care about it as much as you do. Often, it is difficult to see it go through the ringer and so as much as you want for it to do well out in the world, it can be safer to keep it close.

I'm not sure if you feel that way about it or not, but it's a description I've heard and, from experience, I'd say the analogy isn't too far off.

Posted by Hildy9595 (Member # 1489) on :

Christine, you can also sign up as a "long writer" with the SFFW. Kathleen helps folks exchange novel-length works for critique.

I was reading a novel for someone here (which is why I've been woefully unavailable to participate in Frags and Feedback) and did it chapter by chapter. It seemed to work well, but when there were long gaps between receiving chapters, I'll admit I did lose the thread of the story and that likely affected my feedback. I think it is a good idea to have at least a first draft complete to your satisfaction before sending it for critiques, so that if the critiquer wants to receive it chapter-by-chapter, you can send the chapters consistently.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Christine, I have some critique suggestions for novels in the Ways to Critique area:

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum21/HTML/000005.html

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I should probably clarify something. Usually, when I'm critiquing a long work like a novel, I only need to read the first chapter to tell the writer that it is definitely not "done". I'll usually read two or three chapters (and possibly a synopsis) to give some feedback on what might help get it closer to being "done".

But if a novel is really anywhere near being "done", then I'll read the whole thing. Naturally, this is the rare case, most novels being submitted for critiques aren't anywhere near being "done". Now I may be a bit more avid about reading than most people. I'll read the exact same book a dozen times if I really like it. I'll read a minor revision of a book I've already read just as eagerly as I would read an entirely new work.

But ultimately, in order for your novel to be "done", it must have the potential to generate that same response in a reasonable share of the market, as judged by a publisher. Remember, the editor you send this to won't read the entire thing just to find out the ending. That editor has to feel that it would be worth reading several times (even in the process of getting it published someone will have to do that, after all), that there will be people out there that will want to put it on bookshelves next to their reading couches. While it is true that a majority of books sold in this country are intended purely to serve as decorations, you aren't writing one of those (or if you are, then why does it matter that it be any good?).

So if you're having trouble finding people to read the whole thing multiple times, then it isn't done. Your publisher is going to want to find lots of people that will pay to have their very own copies, after all.

Just because a novel is longer than a short story, that doesn't mean that it is much more difficult to critique, after all. And if the work is "done", then the reading of it doesn't count as "work".

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

quote:
It was more in reference to the whole thing....knowing when the story is as clean as it can be, as good as it can be, etc.

Christine, that was what my post (about going through the chapters of THE FIRST FIVE PAGES) was trying to answer. Lukeman starts with the more obvious things an editor would reject a manuscript for and goes through to some very subtle things, spending a chapter on each. I think it would be a great help for looking at a novel to see if it's really ready to send to a publisher.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Thanks Kathleen, I'll definitely have to check that book out then. I did misunderstand your first post.

Thanks for your comments, everyone! Survivor, you're probably right about how quickly you can know if a novel is done. I make my decision to finish reading or not reading a book within that amount of time. And most structural problems begin there. Strangely, my biggest problem is coming at the end, but perhaps there's something in the early chapters that's causing the problems that I've missed.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

My experience is that, like others have already said, it's never "done enough." Eventually you just have to reach a point where you say, "Another revision or 12 will probably make it better, but I'm done and I'm sending it out like this." For me, that moment comes about the time I say, "If I have to read this book one more time, I'll put my head through the computer screen." I find that's a good time to declare the book finished.

Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :

Upon reading exerpts of First Five online, and having the scales fall from my eyes, I hereby retract anything I ever said about people placing too much emphasis on the first thirteen lines and hooks.

[This message has been edited by Magic Beans (edited October 27, 2004).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

quote:
For me, that moment comes about the time I say, "If I have to read this book one more time, I'll put my head through the computer screen." I find that's a good time to declare the book finished.

See, I'm just the opposite. When I don't enjoy reading all the way through something, it means that it is not done. For me, a work is finished when I can simply read through it for pleasure without feeling the need to stop and correct anything. It is unfinished when I need to turn my aesthetic nodes off in order to keep reading.

Darn UBB tags, and what the heck is Sam playing?

[This message has been edited by Survivor (edited October 28, 2004).]

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

The book is done tomorrow.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

A book isn't done till it's published. Then again, there are such things as revised copies.