Recently, Christine frightened me with her post about grammar.
As a weird, little man, I was wondering were I can get a crash course on grammar. Does anyone know a good web-based resource that could help define the basics?
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 08, 2004).]
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
Well, Bartleby.com is a good source for information.
Elements of Style by Strunk and White, is particularly helpful and is worth picking up a hard copy. It hits most of the high points and you can read through the whole thing in a couple of hours tops. Run a nice, hot bubble-bath and settle in for a spell .
A Pocket Style Manual by Diane Hacker, while not available on-line (that I know of), is a great desk resource. It is easy to flip through, quick and concise. This is also a good resource for research documentation (MLA, Chicago, APA, etc.).
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
I hate the metric system.
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
1) What's wrong with the metric system?
2) What's it got to do with grammar?
Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1411) on :
Don't let OSC know if you pick up Strunk and White's book, though. He'd likely throw it at you.
Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
I don't consider myself a grammarian either, but one thing that must be considered is that at least some "poor" grammar choices are a matter of style--like using sentence fragments.
To the extent that it's understandable and reasonably correct, we can chuck the superstrict grammar rules and hold the critics at bay with our artistic license.
Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :
I hate Star Trek. (For Eric's benefit)
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 08, 2004).]
Posted by dpatridge (Member # 2208) on :
huh? why would osc throw that particular book at anyone?
Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1411) on :
He really dislikes it. You might even say hates it. He ranted, at length, about it at this last summer's Bootcamp.
Posted by dpatridge (Member # 2208) on :
haha, man, i woulda loved to be there. so why does he find it so despicable?
Posted by Kickle (Member # 1934) on :
Barnes and Noble has a free grammar class that's good- the instructor is really helpful and he doesn't care how many times you take it. The class is used mostly by people trying to learn English as a second language, but heck it's free.
Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :
Whatever Mr. Card thinks, if you feel shaky on the basics, Elements is a good place to start. The advice in it seems more applicable to school papers than to fiction, but as Robyn said, it's a quick, easy read.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
> 1) What's wrong with the metric system? > 2) What's it got to do with grammar?
Whenever I post something that seems like a non sequitur, look around for possible puns.
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
EJS, I did (and usually do when I notice a non-seq), but I still didn't notice to what you were refering.
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
"Gram" is metric. Ergo, "Grammarian" could be a pun implying that you were a proponent of the metric system. Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
Thanks Autumnmuse, I completely missed that.
Everytime I read Grammarian it makes me think of Librarian. My head was in a totally different place.
Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :
I think that what Card hates about Strunk & White is that too many people take it really seriously, and don't feel that they can break any of its rules. So, if you're the type of person who always changes your stories to fit what your critiquers say, then DON'T READ IT OR ANY OTHER GRAMMAR OR WRITING BOOK!!!!! Or at least, keep in mind that, if it doesn't work for you, chuck it. But personally, I think Strunk & White is pretty good, and can be very helpful for people who DO know what they're doing as well as those who are kind of shaky.
[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited November 12, 2004).]
Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :
If you know what the rules are and you break them deliberately in order to accomplish your aim, it's called art. If you don't know what the rules are and you break them, it's called ignorance.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :
If you can spare the cash for the Chicago Manual of Style, I'd highly recommend it as a reference. It is, I believe, fairly realistic about when you, as a writer, can stretch the rules and when you'll look like an idiot doing so. Strunk & White's book is good but outdated and general; Chicago is current and extremely specific. Plus, it's sometimes surprisingly funny to read. If I remember correctly, it quotes Monty Python and the Holy Grail in one example, but I couldn't tell you where.
Oh, and since this thread is about grammar, your title should be "Life would be so much easier if I were a grammarian."
[This message has been edited by Brinestone (edited November 13, 2004).]
Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
Now where I live, proper grammar doesn't exist. 'Was' is pronounced 'Wuz' and consistently replaces ANY past tense form of the verb 'to be'. As in, "We was going to the store." Oh, yeah. And words like 'store' have two syllables. Posted by dpatridge (Member # 2208) on :
live inner city somewhere eh?
hehe, proper grammar doesn't exist for the majority of people in the majority of places these days... where i live the most popular bad grammar is the run-on sentence
Posted by Triarius (Member # 2229) on :
Something else I have in common with the inestimable Mr. Card! I, too, dislike Strunk and White.
The Chicago Manual of Style is not bad, but no longer what it once was.
If you can find it in a used book search, look for Guide to Modern English, by John Gilcrest; Scott, Foresman and Company, 1960. This is an out of print textbook. It also contains the most lucid exposition of proper grammar I have ever encountered. If you can find it and you are weak on grammar, pay whatever they want. This book is invaluble.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :
Hm. I'm curious now, since I'm really only familiar with the fifteenth edition of Chicago. What was it before that it isn't now?
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Kickle:
quote:Barnes and Noble has a free grammar class that's good- the instructor is really helpful and he doesn't care how many times you take it. The class is used mostly by people trying to learn English as a second language, but heck it's free.
How does one access this, Kickle?
Posted by Triarius (Member # 2229) on :
Brinestone,
I think they have begun to confuse style with fashion. Still, it is one of the best references currently in print. Beats Strunk & White. I always thought S&W to be needlessly obtuse, at times.
Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :
Not to be puritan, but by grammar I think you mean "style", no? Grammar is what they teach us non-native speakers when we're learning English :-) Style's more advanced grammar ...
Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :
Silver3's right. Do you mean grammar or style, hoptoad?
If you want a funny book that not only gives you basic grammar but a look at how it developed into what it is now, I highly recommend...
<drum roll>
Eats, Shoots & Leaves by Lynne Truss.
Reading this book not only made me feel better about my grammar usage, but it also helped me remember how important grammar is in conveying any kind of information. This ended up helping my style immensely.
Posted by Magic Beans (Member # 2183) on :
Personally, I never thought Strunk & White obtuse--just the opposite. Of course, maybe it is I who am obtuse!
I agree that style and grammar can certainly be confused when looking at the final example of a piece of writing: where does one end and the other begin? I think of it this way: grammar is the set of rules (sometimes guidelines), and style is how you use the rules. Grammar is the building codes and principles of construction, style is the architecture and decor.
Posted by Kickle (Member # 1934) on :
Time to fess up - I have no idea how to do a link- but you can find the Barnes and Noble Grammar Fitness Class at Barnes and Noble University by searching their site. Their course material is- The Delux Transitive Vampire and The New Well-tempered Sentence, both of which are great guides and are inspiring for anyone who loves to play with words. Personally, commas are my idea of true evil.
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