Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Still another POV question

This is topic Still another POV question in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Axi (Member # 2247) on :

I'm pretty sure this has already been discussed before but i need your help.

I'm starting to write a short story. At this moment I've made an outline, and some "research" on the characters. I have four characters in this story, sharing about the same protagonism each. I intend to write the story in 3rd limted and my outline reveals 8/9 "chapters" that would switch the POV between the characters. I expect the story to be 25-30 pages long. (Though this could change as i write).

And now, the dilemma:

Is switching the POV between 4 different characters in a 30 pages-long story a possibility? Or I should just forget about it all...

Thanks in advance, hatrackers

Posted by JBSkaggs (Member # 2265) on :

I don't know thats a pretty short text for four different POV's. But you can get about four to eight pages of each POV. So with this size I would reccomend writing out a couple of chapters and see what happens.

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

Anything is possible -- as long as you have good reason to switch between them, go ahead. But, as you seem to be aware, you do take a risk doing this in a short story -- some people will moan about it.

But I recall several short stories that have multiple POV's... I don't remember feeling disturbed over it; the author did a good job and did it for a reason.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

Could it be done effectively with fewer POV characters? I'm gathering the answer is "no." Go for it. You can ease the transition of the reader by introducing the new ones, if possible, as in:

John knew that Mary would be annoyed.

Mary didn't feel so much annoyed as puzzled ...

I'm a little more troubled by the "chapter" idea. Do you just mean, sections separated by blank lines? Or do you mean numbered things? To me, seeing numbered or titled sections in a short story indicates the author's a newbie. This may be unfair, but there may be others with the same expectation.

Posted by Axi (Member # 2247) on :

wbriggs, you're right. I used the word "chapters" meaning sections, on which the POV switches. No intention of numbering, just a blank line.

Thanks to all. I think I'll give it a try then, being really careful about the switching.

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

Edit: oops! Simultaneous posting alert! Deleted comments regarding chapters.

As for the POVs--yeah, you'll encounter people who say that short stories should always be from a single point of view. A lot of these people are editors. Slipping in a second POV is not too problematical, if it's really necessary. Four, though, seems hard to justify. Are they in different locations? If they're in the same place, you can almost certainly combine the POVs. If you're splitting it up just for the purpose of providing the reader with information known to the characters, then--well, I sympathize. But there are other ways to do it. My GUESS is that you'd be better with fewer. But YOU know the story. You're the writer. If it's necessary, then do it.

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited March 18, 2005).]

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

quote:
To me, seeing numbered or titled sections in a short story indicates the author's a newbie.

I'm going to have to dispute that one (even if it is a point that doesn't really matter one way or the other.) Was Stephen Crane a newbie when he wrote "The Open Boat?" Was Henry James a newbie when he wrote "The Turn of the Screw" or "The Beast in the Jungle?" Was Dostoyevsky a newbie when he wrote "White Nights?" Was Frank O'Connor a newbie when he wrote "Guests of a Nation?"

Seriously, does it really make someone a "newbie" (which, by the way, unless you've had a whole bunch of your stuff published, you are as well) just because they put little numbers in their line breaks? Does it make that big a difference?

Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :

Could you tell the story from an omniscient POV rather than switching between characters in 3rd person?

[This message has been edited by Robyn_Hood (edited March 18, 2005).]

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Robyn_Hood beat me to it.

First of all, there are no rules. I do think that you can use more than one point of view in a short story and I have occassionally done this, although short stories lend themsleves to one viewpoing for space reasons. I find that I need a better reason for multiple POV's in a short story than in a novel. Well, heck, in a novel I'll go for "Becuase I felt like it." In a short story I need something more.

Even then, when I say multiple POV's are ok in a short story, I'm really saying 2. Each additional POV added to a short story is exponentially more difficult to justify. (I say this as opposed to saying you can't do it because I'm sure you can find a way to make it work somehow.)

Now, I don't know how long your story is because that may factor in. Pages are meaningless to me...I think in terms of word count anymore. When you say pages I find myself asking what font? What font size? Single or double spaced?

It almost sounds, however, like you're talking about a novella or novellette rather than a short story. (WC 7500 +) If so, it might be easier to get away with what you're suggesting.

I do keep waffling here, don't I? The trouble is that without actually reading the thing it is almost impossible to give my opinion. In general, I would suggest trying to find any other way to do it, including making the POV omniscient, making this a novel, making this a truer short story by cutting some aspects, eliminating or combining characters, etc.

Why? Here are the cons associated with so many POV characters in so short a space, as I see them:

1. Poor characterization of any one individual.
2. Disjointed storytelling.
3. Too much going on too quickly.
4. Confusing.
5. No clear protagonist/antagonist.

That's just off the top of my head. Maybe these won't be a problem in your story, but they are the things you have to be willing to risk if you want to go ahead with your plan.

Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :

A funny thing may happen once you start writing, too. One voice might just assert itself and declare itself the storyteller.

This happened to me in my Billy Goats Gruff re-write. I thought I was going to end up following each of the "goats" and possibly dipping into the "troll", which would have meant four different POVs in less than 3000 words. I didn't really want to do this and it was funny, as I started writing the story, I began with a goat POV but ended up writing 80% of the story from the troll's perspective.

Now that I've revised and edited, the entire story is from the troll's POV. I never dreamed the story would be told from the antagonists POV, but it just sort of happened. It made the story and my life alot easier to do it that way.

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

Hm. Whaddya know. My goats' story is a four POV story and no one commented on that. I don't know if anyone even noticed it. I'm not sure that I noticed it as exceptional; it seemed natural for the story.

Curioser and curioser (which is too a word, if you can go by Lewis Carrol)

Posted by Axi (Member # 2247) on :

First of all, thanks to everybody for your advice. It's been really helpful.

rickfisher, the thing you said about combining the POV's. I thought about that for a while and it really is true that, in fact, the whole story could be told using only two of them. I suppose that it was so obvious that I couldn't see it without someone telling me so. Still I found something intriguing in using the four of them. I guess using two is the wisest choice.

On the newbie thing. In my case I'm a newbie no matter what. It's got nothing to do with blank lines or numbers,

Robyn, I really thought about doing that. But I don't think that I am capable of using omniscient effectively. Sad but true.

Christine, you're right.
I've estimated that this story should be 6000-9000 words long (excuses for the page count, too ambiguous, I see). One of the things you mentioned I already pondered: should this become somewhat a larger story? I suppose the answer will came naturally when i advance. At this moment, I don't think it is a possibility.
As for asking for help without letting you read the thing, you're right again. I'm working hard to show you part of this story soon, even though it's written in spanish. That's one of the reasons I don't usually post in the fragments section and my questions are always more generic. I guess it makes more difficult for you people to help me, but i can assure you it means a lot to me.

Thanks to all again.

Axi

[This message has been edited by Axi (edited March 18, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Axi (edited March 19, 2005).]