Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Gender neutral

This is topic Gender neutral in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

Here's a question. In a lot of other languages, the word for "he" and "she" and "it" is the same. If I wanted to represent that in a story and all the characters speak the same language, how would I do it?

The story is 3rd POV, fairly deep penetration.

Any thoughts?

Posted by SteeleGregory (Member # 2049) on :

Ah, I get to show off some of the ancient trivia clogging my neurons.

The word you're looking for is "thon." Possibly a combination of the words "that one." I've never heard anyone actually use it, but it's the most well known gender neutral pronoun in the English language.

Because I wouldn't want you to think I'm making this up, here's a long meandering article on the subject: http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/10/17/19.html

Posted by keldon02 (Member # 2398) on :

What culture is the story based on? The only Indo European language I recall which doesn't have gender specific third person pronouns is Finnish, which branched from the rest a long time ago.

Some suggestions might be to do like Heinlein did in the first half of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and leave out personal pronouns. Possibly one could use a dialect word (like the southernism 'dey' or the Cajun word 'cher') or use either 'he' or 'she' or 'it' depending upon which gender role you want to be dominant in the culture. One might also look at making the language mostly neologism like Gene Wolfe did with the northern invaders in The Book of the New Sun.

I think most of the more commonly discussed ways are too contrived or too formal to use. They all tend to dehuminize, so if one were to use them they might as well just use 'it' instead.

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

Actually I solved the problem another way, so I won't have to deal with the gender neutral language.

I was thinking of Chinese, which doesn't distiguish in the spoken language.

Thanks for the info. I'd never heard of "thon".

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

How did you solve it?

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

I cut it.

I had a plot point and needed Halldor, while reading a saga, to not realize Li Reiko was a woman. The gender neutral thing seemed like a great idea until I looked at implementing it. I decided that Halldor thought references to Li Reiko as "her" were transcription errors. Besides which, it only bothered me. None of my readers noticed. And this detail is only in backstory that doesn't appear in the text.

Posted by Eadwacer (Member # 2393) on :

I've never heard "thon". I'd say that the most popular (and possibly oldest) gender neutral pronoun (for people) is "they".

"Someone snuck into my house last night?"
"Who were they?"
"I don't know, but they left their fingerprints everywhere."
"Well, I hope that you find them."

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

That's not gender neutral as much as it plural. It's used incorrectly by most people to indicate uncertainty about gender.

Even allowing that it is common usage, one would never use "they" to indicate someone about whose gender one was certain. For instance, "I went to visit my mom. They is doing well."

[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited March 20, 2005).]

Posted by Eadwacer (Member # 2393) on :

No, you'd never use it for someone who's gender is specified by another word in the sentance (gender agreement, just like in other languages), but you could use it in cases where the gender is known, but unspecified. It has been used it this way for several centuries. ( http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html )

"Did you speak to her cousin?"
"Yes, they are doing well." ("are" is still used)

Whether the "they" words are acceptable singular neuter words is the center of a linguistic holy war which we probably don't want to start here.

I'm not saying that anyone has to use it, I'm simply saying that it is an accepted option by most readers.

Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :

It might be a regional thing. I've never heard it used that way. Your first example, yes, but not the current example.