Hatrack River Writers Workshop: the all powerful comma

This is topic the all powerful comma in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/writers/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001980

Posted by JBSkaggs (Member # 2265) on :

It was funny this weekend I rec'd four detailed comments on a writer's work with four different opinions about that author's use of commas.

One called it a "glaring collection of misused punctuation."

Another called it "A non orthodox but effective method to establish rythem and mood."

Another called "completely unnessesary, use periods instead"

and another said " How do you even approach comma use- since this story is clear and removal of commas may destroy the entire structure and meaning"

Mind you this story is by a published HWA professional- so the comma choice was intentional.

King said he generally disregards common conventions for comma usage- seeing them as a note to pause in the reading. (in dialogue) And that he recieves tons of criticsm from the punctuation nazis.

Where do you stand? How do you use the comma?

JB Skaggs

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

I am 100% behind standard comma usage, and believe that anything less makes you look incompetant. And I think the phrase "punctuation nazis" is used by people who are too lazy to bother learning to punctuate.

How does being a published HWA professional guarantee a working knowledge of commas? I've seen all kinds of appalling spelling, punctuation, and grammar errors in print; clearly publication is no guarantee that either authors or editors know how to punctuate.

I often feel like no one but me gives a damn any more. Oh, well.

[This message has been edited by Beth (edited May 02, 2005).]

Posted by JBSkaggs (Member # 2265) on :

I should say he said "he made the comma choices intentially." Not that I infered it.

JB Skaggs

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

Hot Writers of America?

It sounds like he tried weird comma placement as a stylistic device. I'm not much on stylistic devices that I actually notice: I'd rather concentrate on what's happening.

Posted by JBSkaggs (Member # 2265) on :

You edited while I was typing.

You know Stephen King is a English teacher and he was the one who came up with the term Punctuation Nazi.

But you do bring up a good point. I wonder if we are witnessing a shift in writing styles. From the formal usage of Standard English to the informal usage of internet English. Publishers really don't seem to care anymore nor does it seem the average reader either.

Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :

I tend to put commas in where they feel natural to me. Fortunately, that mostly coincides with proper comma usage.

I don't really object much to commas being used where no punctuation is necessary, as long as a pause would be appropriate in that spot, or if they add clarity.

What I do object to is commas being left out when they are needed or used when different punctuation is needed.

When it comes to punctuation rules, I tend to side with clarity over formalism.

For example, according to current usage rules you should not place a comma before the and joining the last item in a list, unless at least one of the items in the list contains and:

* I bought an orange, an apple and a pear.
* I bought a cup and saucer, a knife and fork, and a plate.

Of course, that nice grammatical rule leaves some ambiguity in the following:

* I'd like to thank my parents, Madonna and God.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

I'm 95% behind standard comma usage. I recognize that readability, rhythm and mood sometimes just don't jive with the rules. For instance, in the sentence

As one of the elite team captains, he was expected to be on time.

the comma is correct. However, if the sentence were

As one of the elite team captains, he was expected to be on time, but saving a life seemed more important to him.

then I'd suggest leaving off the first comma. Otherwise, the readability is choppy.

As one of the elite team captains he was expected to be on time, but saving a life seemed more important to him.

Even trimmed, the results are the same:

As team captain, he was expected to be on time.

As team captain he was expeced to be on time.

As team captain, he was expected to be on time, but saving a life seemed more important.

As team captain he was expected to be on time, but saving a life seemed more important.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited May 02, 2005).]

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

quote:
For example, according to current usage rules you should not place a comma before the and joining the last item in a list, unless at least one of the items in the list contains and:

Ah, the infamous Oxford comma. This battle has been raging among editors for centuries. Typically, Americans (possibly including Canadians, though one can never be sure what Canada is up to -- perhaps plotting to take over the world is my guess) will put the comma in, and the UK and others will leave it out.

Which is correct? Both are. You decide. Big deal, right?

In MS Word, you can customize your grammar settings for either usage.

On to JB's point... since I've not seen this story, I can't comment. But misplaced punctuation, intentional or otherwise, makes for difficult reading. Punctuation should be mostly invisible, subtle, and unobtrusive. Signposts, really.

Apparently, someone wrote an entire novel without using one comma. I'm still looking forward to reading that one...

Nevertheless, I hate the artsy-fartsy types who forego all proper conventions just because they feel like being "different." It makes me want to kill kittens... (not again...)

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

I was taught to use Oxford commas, but recognize not using them as a viable choice. I love the example Eric points out above.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I use commas phonetically. If I find that my commas are instructing the reader to use the William Shatner dramatic technique, I cut some of them. If I find that certain commas are suggesting that clauses be reassembled in such a manner as to completely alter the meaning of my prose, I delete them.

In the end, I want readers to hear rather than see my commas. So if four different readers comment on my usage, I know that there's a problem. Even if all or most of the comments are positive, it means that my commas are sticking out as an artificial contrivence rather than a natural use of effective language. I would much rather only see them mentioned by critics telling me that I should use the Oxford method or whatever than have everyone say they really liked the way I used commas.

And that example that EJS used...that's so blasphemous that it has to be something someone famous actually said in public.

Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :

I'm with Survivor, at least as far as prose is concerned. Use commas when you need to control the rhythm of the reader's mind. When you want to put William Shatner in your reader's head, add commas all over the place. If you're looking for more of a Sniffels the Mouse effect, you must omit all punctuation entirely.

This usage applies to no other form of written communication, just prose. Non-fiction, blogs, lab reports, research papers, news articles, grant applications, movie reviews, Hatrack postings -- just about everything else in the English language -- should employ commas strictly for clarity.

Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :

I use commas in any way that makes my meaning clear to my intended audience, "music" included.

Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :

Like all the rules of writing, there is a time to break standard comma procedure, as long as 1) you know you are breaking it, and 2) you know why you are breaking it.

For example, I used the following sentence in a recent piece, which, as far as I know, breaks the "rules," but communicates the point quite clearly and succintly: "I watched Mom’s face, unmoving, peaceful."

(And I ALWAYS include the Oxford comma )

[This message has been edited by TheoPhileo (edited May 04, 2005).]

Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :

In that sentence, are you unmoving and peaceful? Or is it Mom's face that's unmoving and peaceful?

Just curious.

Posted by dpatridge (Member # 2208) on :

the way i read his sentence, it's the mothers face that is unmoving and peaceful. probably dead, sleeping, or had a concussion.

Posted by Jules (Member # 1658) on :

I put in altogether too many commas, and remove them on second draft.

I tend to only leave them in where they are necessary either for emphasis, like the one above, or to clarify the structure of the sentence -- e.g. for setting off paranthetical phrases, like this one, from the rest of the sentence. I also always use a comma before a modifier that provides extra information about the main part of the sentence (either adjectival or adverbial), like this one.

I often write ridiculously complicated sentences with about 6 or 7 commas, which is a habit I must get out of.

Posted by RavenStarr (Member # 2327) on :

For me, comma usage all depends on a few different things.
For a general 3rd person narration, I use the usual punctuation rules. But for dialogue, I try to put more concentration towards copying a person's speech pattern, and very few people ever really use perfect punctuation when they speak... so, I'd only use punctuation so that it makes the person sound natural... like how OSC writes his dialogue... read almost any dialogue spoken by the Piggies, or even Hazie from "Ender's Shadow"... They speak almost completely in run-un sentences... because it's natural for people like them. Like for me... the way I normally type here with the different slang and combining of words with “-“ and “'”, and breaking things up with “...”, that's actually how I normally speak when I speak casually... or sarcastically…

[This message has been edited by RavenStarr (edited May 04, 2005).]

Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :

Ha, so much for clarity. It works in context, where the POV character's mother is asleep on a hospital bed.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

No, it doesn't, unless you had already specificed that the "I" was moving and/or not at peace.