It might be helpful to understand the nature of the powers. They are supernatural in origin, and demonic. The way one gains these powers is by forcing someone else who has them to submit to you either by killing them or by placing your foot on their neck (Ancient symbol of defeat in the ancient middle east) The powers then travel from them to you. Most of this character's enemies don't bother about the neck thing, they're more than happy to kill you outright.
The male side of magic is tainted, and all men with the gift eventually go insane.
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Now I'm facing a conundrum. I don't want the message of the story to be "evil is ok as long as the result is good" but that's what it's seeming to me. How can I work this out?
I think you're OK, as long as the price the hero pays for getting rid of the powers is high enough.
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The way one gains these powers is by forcing someone else who has them to submit to you either by killing them or by placing your foot on their neck (Ancient symbol of defeat in the ancient middle east) The powers then travel from them to you.
Frodo had to get up close and personal with evil, and it wounded his soul. (To me, this is less interesting than some other takes : )
DS9 episode: Sisko can participate in a forgery to trick a neighboring power into joining us in a defensive war. This will also involve arming a terrorist with WMD materials; covering up murder; paying bribes . . . or he can keep his moral standards, and watch the Federation be destroyed.
When France surrendered in WWII, Churchill urged France to give the UK its navy (rather than giving it to the Nazis). France responded by ordering its ships into port, where the Nazis could take them. While France stood down in its war against Germany, Churchill blew up the French navy. What else could he do? Although destroying ships full of sailors that were friends a few minutes ago certainly isn't nice.
You might play with what it means for magical powers to be evil. In the real world, usually, power is neutral. But in your story: how about the power to brainwash? Necromancy? Human sacrifice, to gods that will grant powerful favors? I wouldn't be content to have magic that was just evil because the author says so. Let it be something that's evil for a reason.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited June 06, 2005).]
But exactly what is wrong with blowing up the French Navy? Even if you accomplish nothing else, you've blown up the French Navy. That's like, a time honored tradition for the British
My own belief is that "means" don't exist independently of their "ends". Whether an action is good or bad depends entirely on what it actually accomplishes. Note, I believe that you have to include all the consequences in your tally. Many types of actions have serious long-term consequences even if the immediate effects seem good.
Shooting at the navy of a nation that has (for whatever extraneous reasons) just joined an enemy effort to destroy your nation and your way of life is not usually counted as a bad thing. Sure, the immediate effects of shooting enemies are bad, but the consequences of not shooting them are quite a bit worse (unless you happen to already be on the wrong side).
The hero doesn't know this however.
Evil, when all is said and done, is an exaggerated form of selfishness: "I want power, I want land, I want to be in control." It is the user's motive that makes it evil or not.
[This message has been edited by Elan (edited June 06, 2005).]
In other words, the Sentinels have epsilon powers as well as the Shuhr, but the difference is that they are looking for a way to destroy these powers rather than a way to further the strength of these powers.
If you haven't read this trilogy yet, you might want to take a look at it. It could help you to figure out what to do with your own story.
I believe that Canadian law requires you to insult Americans in French, too. Please update your message with a translation.
Does it help that I have a friend who can insult people in Klingon?
As to thinking it's ok to use evil to defeat evil, that depends upon how you define evil. I'm getting a sense that we define it far differently from one another, for the reason I mentioned above, if nothing else.
For example, I disbelieve this blanket statemetn: "War is evil." War is not evil. In fact sometimes war is very very good. War is another sort of power, and it is made evil or good by the hands that manipulate it. (Of course, there is often gray area. Usually troops on both sides do bad things, but they have their individual souls to look out for.) Let's take WW II for an easy example. The evil there would have been to sit by and do nothing. In fact, let's forget the holocaust for a moment. A dictator was trying to sieze power all over Europe and take control.
Obviously, the question of whether or not a war is evil is incredibly complex and requirs a case by case look.
To be honest, I don't believe in evil all that much. I believe in selfishness. People are all, to a greater or lesser degree, selfish. Evil people are entirely selfish. Children are born selfish. They learn right or wrong based on the good or bad things that happen to them as a result of their actions.
I'm done now.
At least, Letterman claimed he wasn't to sure of the significance of the gag when he blew up a miniature French frigate in his miniature of the Thames. Of course, Letterman always is pretending to be particularly obtuse about things, it's so he can use that unique facial expression of his.
Back to the subject (again). Do these powers get passed on somehow from generation to generation, or are those with the power immortal until they lose them? Also, are there any safeguards to prevent them from falling into the hands of "good"? If so, how does your hero bypass these safeguards? If not, in what sense are they necessarily "evil"?
[This message has been edited by Blue_Rabbit (edited June 07, 2005).]
Yeah, I've read about them. And I stand by what I said. War is not inherently evil. Just because people die, in fact, it doesn't make a thing evil. Death is not evil. It is a part of life, merely a part we fear. I find it entirely over-simplistic to call war evil, although perhaps easier. I also find it leads to sentiments that create intolerable situations and dictators because we couldn't possibly fight back.
In fact, killing is not evil. It is a little known truth that the commandment actually translates as, "Thou shalt not murder." The difference is subtle but poignant. The easier way to explain it is that if I've killed in self defense I have not murdered and therefore done nothing wrong. More complicated is things like war, when killing is part of a greater purpose, a force or power that is often out of the hands of the individual soldiers carrying out the orders though it is also shaped by them.
No, war is not evil. Men do evil things but things and forces are nothing until they are guided by the will of men.
And one more thing, the most dangerous people are those who think that "something greater" might be more important than human lives. I know where this kind of thinking goes to. Right after war, we had a clean example.
I won't answer now, because there will be definitely a flamewar :/
[This message has been edited by Blue_Rabbit (edited June 07, 2005).]
Listen, war isn't pretty for sure. It causes death and destruction. It helps the spread of diseases that would not otherwise flourish as well because men are bunked in twight quarters and do not have adequate nutrition.
But right now, we're really talking about the nature of good or evil. I was using a frankly controversial example because it's something I've thought about, especially in recent years.
You see, bad things happen. Whether or not we're at war, bad things happen. People get shot and die. People get into accidents and die. People get sick and die. Epidemics ravage entire populations and they die. We don't see a lot of that in the US, but it's still prevalent in the world. People are hungry and die. Cities crumble due to neglect or abuse.
Bad things happen and people question God. Why, God, did you let this happen? And the ministers' answers usually come something like, "The Lord workds in mysterious ways."
Not really, I say. I think he's brilliant. And that's true even when it comes to death and destruction. And for so many reasons. What if you could not feel as you did about war? What if there were no war, and so you did not have to go through that emotional reaction? How, then, can you appreciate peace? How love without hate? How joy without sadness? But more than the poet's contrasts is this: God created an ecosystem. He put men at the top of the food chain. We abuse it sometimes, but whether we do or not the planet and its beautifully planned environment puts us in check.
The three horsemen of the apocalypse come, not when man is so evil that he must be dealt with, but when men need thinning out. There are too many people settled in one place to feed them all? Enter famine. There are not enough resources for everyone and only some can have them? Enter war. But pestilence, he is the great equalizer, for not even rich and powerful men can escape him.
Death as a part of life. Cold, cruel, but a part of life. That does not mean I will not cry when I lose someone I love. That's what makes me human. Nor does it mean I won't shed a tear for those who lose their lives at war, through pestilence, or through famine. But I do not accept that the things that killed them were evil. It is not evil because it makes me sad.
Evil, in my opinion, is in the hearts of men. It exists in the actions that precipitate baseless war and needless suffering. It is in the actions of troops during war...actions they take because they can, because they won't ge tin trouble for it, and because they have power and want to prove it.
But it is not in things. Things have their purpose. Their cold, cruel purposes. They serve men and by that serving develop their nature.
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?
I love hitting the nerve of you jewed up americans, so ignorant and gullible.
Anyway, so long you talentless losers
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Nah I only post here when I feel like raising my self-esteem by being around people with no talent or friends
Like beth said, when your drunk.
(BTW the only reason I'm not going off on that jewed-up thing is because I know that you are trolling.)
Did he just get the idea that because nobody was taking his other little hints that he hates America seriously, he should mention that he hates it because it's all a big Zionist conspiracy to take over the world? Doesn't he realize that I, who have had to recuse myself from all votes on whether to exterminate the human race, have him beat hands down as the forum's resident eccentric? Of course, the French have earned a special place in my heart by persecuting my ancestors for a thousand years (quite the accomplishment, since there wasn't yet a France at back when they started)
I mean, did he come here thinking that he was going to "blow our minds" with these off topic rants? Or is he just telling himself "sour grapes" because someone shot his writing down?
I think the main clue is "talentless hacks". Somebody must have given him a really harsh critique. But I'm willing to hear evidence to the contrary.
Anyway, back on topic. I think that the discussion of whether war is inherently evil doesn't advance anything. Most of us can probably agree that war wouldn't exist if there were no such thing as evil. I happen to think the same thing is just as true of "good", and in many of the same ways, but that is besides the point. The main point is that this "Nimrod's Curse" we were talking about doesn't seem to have anything to do with war. The point is that it is the Devil's method of selecting the eventual AntiChrist. One has to remember that the AntiChrist is described as a master of ruling by persuasion and politics rather than by direct conquest. He appears to use his powers for good, but is really seeking to undermine and destroy the Church of the Lamb.
So, is that biblical description of the AntiChrist/Abomination of Desolation something that you're keeping or tossing? This goes along with my other questions (the on-topic ones in previous posts, not the off-topic ones in the opening of this one).
Either way you get a hero with "tragic dillema" and you can't say that messing with demons is ok for him.
Anyway, if Satan made these powers, he should have had some wicked purpose.
It's up to the writer if the character will somehow overcome the curse, or succumb to darkness.
Give in. It sounds to me like you want to write a Christian Fantasy that centers on the temptation of one who could become the antichrist. The moral of the story? Give yourself over to God for only He can save you. I think you've got it spelled out right there. If you do that, there's no way anyone can confuse your meaning and think that what he's done is a good thing. It was a terrible thing and now he must beg for forgiveness or ris losing his very soul -- indeed, risk becomming the sort of monster we all fear.
Moreover, I think there's quite an audience for such a story. Christianity truly does dominate our culture and end of the world stories involving the antichrist never seem to grow old. (Well, they do to me, but not to the rest of the world and that's what's important. )
One option is to suspend disbelief. This is a fantasy world, it does not exist, and it has nothing to do with the real world. That works to a point, but even in my fantasy worlds I will not support a moral or philosophy I abhore.
Another option is to go with it. Write your beliefs firmly into your works. This can come off preachy, but if you do it well it won't.
The third option that I can think of is more difficult for some. Without giving up your beliefs (I would never suggest such a thing), you can expand them and learn to accept other, shall we say, manifestations of God? Setting aside deeply held moral and philosophical ideals is no part of this. Rather, it is a matter of consider that maybe the God these aliens worship is actually the same God you worship. He just manifests himself differently for them. This even works in fantasy novels that have sources of good and evil that are obviously God and the devil.
I had all sorts of interesting things I was planning on saying, but by the time I finished reading the entire thread they had all either been said or premptively refuted.
The one thing I can say is this: Mythopoetic, I know how you feel. I spent about four hours thinking about a novel and planning out the whole story line and I had this grand point that I wanted to make, but in the end it didn't work at all and it seemed like the only conclusion was one that I didn't wish to endorse. It was painful.
I have come to the conclusion that sometimes, the point you are trying to make isn't possible, and other times it is not as you want it to be, but other times the point is hidden deeper inside your work.
I'm sure that didn't help you one bit. I was just surprised that I had had a very similar problem only the day before I read this.
Jon
I was riding the bus the other day and this guy was going on about how money was evil and a tool of Satan and all that. And I thought...okay, so I got a bit defensive.
The systemization of currancy, and of credentialization, and even of the military...I know perfectly well that these are Satan's prime tools in this world. But that's because they are powerful tools. Satan didn't invent them, we did, and we gave them to you in unstinting generousity. Even if I'm saying it myself. That's just because, if the decision were left entirely to me, I wouldn't have given them to you, or, had I done so, it wouldn't have been a generous act.
But the gifts were good. They are good. The fact that they increase the freedom and power of men to act for evil as well as for good is proof that they are true gifts.
Of course, now I'm the one getting off track
I'm just saying that I don't think that you can say "it''s demonic, therefore evil" and have the question be that neatly settled in the reader's mind. One of the core ideas that allowed Christianity to dominate the world and is still strong in most of the Christian world today is that all power is an attribute of God, and that it is misuse of power rather than power itself that is evil. This works in conjunction with the more explicit belief that man has a fallen and corrupt nature, so if men have more power than other men, they will use it to bad ends.
Also, the more purely Christian idea is that Satan and his associates cannot create anything, including powers. They only have the ability to twist and distort that which is given by God. Of course, this is consistent with the above. More to the point, it is also theologically consistent with monotheism rather than dualism. And it places moral responsibility upon man for his choices, which is the point of any religion.
So I don't think that the appeal to Christianity will work. Christianity has too long a history of serious moral philosophy. Even if most laity are largely unaware of it and many preachers are somewhat incompetent, a "Christian" work has to deal with theology on a rational basis. You can't take the pagan approach and say "my gods good, your gods stinky."
Those that do, definitely don't agree that Satan is powerless. Some say he is, some say he isn't. Some say that God is the only one who controls fate but in which case, doesn't that make him evil because he lets Satan have his way? (And they have an answer to that, I just can't think what it is right now.)
As to magical powers being evil, that's a Christian teaching that goes back to the witch trials. They used the devil's powers to create their witchery. They signed a contract with the devil. They danced naked with the devil. And there are some today who still believe in witches and witchcraft. After all, the bible does say, "Though shalt not suffer a witch to live."
Christian Fantasy is a bit of an oxymoron by it's very nature, but the point of the stories are not an accurate relfection on the teachings of the Bible but rather the communication of a related moral such as, "Surrender yourself to God and ask his forgiveness." (Which, by the way, is one of the points you won't get Christians to agree upon.)
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Some say that God is the only one who controls fate but in which case, doesn't that make him evil because he lets Satan have his way? (And they have an answer to that, I just can't think what it is right now.
I think that the answer you're referring to is Free Will. IE: God doesn't want to be a bully and just make us all into good little puppets so He lets us choose good or evil.
He could MAKE us choose good...then we'd be puppets...
or he could destroy Satan - but that would equal the same thing by taking away our choice.
Meenie
It seems to me that the closer this man gets to Satan (and the longer he has used these corruptive powers), the more difficult it will be to BE ABLE to turn to God in the end. At least, if the powers work the way you have them set up. (I would suggest rethinking the close allusion to Highlander. What if they stole the power by forcing the others to turn to God in their abject misery? Prayer, or even a simple "Oh, God!") Anyway, for him to be able to turn to God in the end--despite having all of the world's demonic, corruptive superpowers--somewhere in there you need to leave a window open for good. How would this be accomplished?
At any rate, so long as your hero is motivated by godly forces in the end, then one could not say that "evil is ok as long as the result is good". The end result is motivated by God. Although, I do think that makes a better point. What if evil IS ok, if it opens one's eyes and makes him realize the glory of God? Is that why evil is "allowed" to exist?
Ok, didn't mean for that to turn to a theological debate, but that's dangerously close to what ended up coming out. 
Shen--because it came up in the course of discussing the topic.
[This message has been edited by Ahavah (edited June 09, 2005).]
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Might I ask, not to be rude or anything, why we are discussing these things when this was not what the original topic was about?
You are more than welcome to ask, but I think the question is off-topic.
I'm kidding. But seriously, sometimes threads wander a bit. As long as it isn't cuasing any problems and as long as the original question has pretty much been answered, then we just kind of go with it.
Of course, if you don't think the original questoin has been answered and want to go back to it, then by all means yank us back.
Thanks for the info, Ahavah. Always good to learn new things.
http://www.trhickman.com/essay.html
mostly the third part.
A thing to remember in all this is that these storys are not true, that is what the word Fiction means. Jesus spoke in parables, they weren't true but they had truth in them. (of course some people will tell you they actually happened, and they could have but they didn't really need to did they?)
As to your story, I think it could work out to say what you want to say, just be sure to mention that things would have turned out better had he not taken on those powers. And perhaps you could actually have another antichrist chosen. (possibly the one he just killed, the bible does talk about him coming back from the dead) and then he battles him using the higher power from God. And personally I suggest moving this away a step from Christ and Satan, even using thinly veiled analogies. This way your story will be better recived by people who would otherwise think that you are trying to write a prophetic vision. (For example the DaVinchi Code, it startles me how much energy is being used to disprove a work of fiction.)
And since the whole theology thing has come up, I guess I'll put my two cents in. As you might have guessed, I'm coming from an evangelical christian background. However, I don't think there is as much difference between different groups of christians as you claim. Now, I'm not talking about cultural difference but doctrinal differences. Typically, any differences tend to fall into doctrines that aren't that important. (for example: Is dancing godly or not? Doesn't really matter too much when it comes to salvation, but it is a difference of opinion which makes some christian denominations different from others.) There are cultural differences. For instance a hispanic church will not be the same as an anglo-saxon church or a black church, or a church with mixed attendance, but they are all equally christian and their doctrine tends to be in about the same place. Now I need to make a point here about christianity: I don't mean to offend people, but there is a big difference between christianity and popular "christianity". There are lots of people and lots of churches which claim to be "christian" but aren't. Lot's of people go to church, but that doesn't make them christians. This tends to confuse a lot of people when it comes to figuring out what christians believe, and is one of the reasons why you'll sometimes here people refer to "born again" christians to help be more specific about what they are talking about.
Just wondering, if you don't believe in satan, then how do you account for man's fall and why Jesus had to save us in the first place? The two are kind of connected.
ok, i'm done with the theological meanderings. Back to story writing. Sorry
Does somebody want to explain the highlander magic system real quick?
Jon
[This message has been edited by Ahavah (edited June 10, 2005).]
Yeah, I've never seen a single episode of highlander in my life. What's up with all this highlander stuff?
Anyway, I'm not very familiar with Highlander, but I saw the movie. I'm sure there are fans who can explain the plot better, but here's the basic gist from what I caught (and it's been a while). All these immortals have power they try to take from each other. The way to kill them is to cut off their heads, and then the survivor absorbs the loser's powers.
[This message has been edited by Ahavah (edited June 11, 2005).]
My point is just that I need evidence that these powers are "evil" beyond your say so as author. More so if you're appealing to "Christian beliefs" because I consider myself a Christian and my beliefs don't support the notion that actual power (as opposed to pretend power, like the "power" of judges or other "authority figures"), in and of itself, can ever be evil.
But even if this story has nothing to do with Christianity at all, you still need to get the reader to understand that these powers are really a bad thing. For an example, let's say you have an "addictive" drug that enhances mental abilities, so a person with an IQ of 120 can have an IQ of 160 by taking this drug. There are no bad side effects, except that your sense of smell gets stronger (all your senses get a bit better, but smell is the only one that makes anyone complain). If you go off the drug, then your IQ goes back to what it was before, and many people with 160 IQ's don't like the feeling of their IQ's going down like that. But other than that there are no bad effects.
So, let's say that the drug is a controlled substance, for use by prescription only and all that, but lot's of people "abuse" it to be smarter at times and some people take it continuously, every day, so that they can function at their habitual level.
Now of course you're laughing at the idea that such a drug could exist. All drugs have some side-effects, and usually these are pretty bad things, even if they're mild and have a low incidence. Many are addictive in the sense that your mental/physical/emotional health could be seriously threatened if you went off them suddenly. A good many will kill you outright in doses even slightly greater than prescribed (some kill you at the prescribed dose, but that's a discussion of malpractice).
I hope that's a more useful analogy.
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You are more than welcome to ask, but I think the question is off-topic.I'm kidding. But seriously, sometimes threads wander a bit. As long as it isn't cuasing any problems and as long as the original question has pretty much been answered, then we just kind of go with it.
Of course, if you don't think the original questoin has been answered and want to go back to it, then by all means yank us back.
Eh...I'm a moderator at another forum and it's one of my duties to make sure each thread doesn't stray too far off topic for too long. I just guess my modding habits carried over to here.
Anywho, um...well, I was going to add something to this subject, but I don't really think I have anything more to add at this point. It's all been said. *shrugs*
What are the concrete bad effects of having and using these powers?
I'm sorry, I know that you probably do have some notions of the bad effects of these powers, it's just that you seem to be hung up on the "bad" source instead. And that just doesn't cut it with me.
Depending on the intended audience, this assumption could be valid.
It's also possible that I have misinterpreted mythopoetic, and this post is full of sh#t. But casual application of profanity is yet another thread, isn't it?
Part of what I meant by asserting that these "magic" powers are demonic is that you aren't really controlling them. You aren't in control. What you are really doing (whether you believe you are doing it or not makes no difference) is telling demons to do stuff for you. And, unlike in many fantasies and such, demons aren't like some magic creature you can compel to obey you. They do what they want to do, and they will serve you only as long as what you are doing is in line with their own plans. Basically, they are using you by telling you the lie that you are using them. Confusing, I know, but essential. Well, I have to go take my sister to driver's ed, so I'll be back soon.
1) Evil Ends: The effects of the powers are evil. Driving people to madness, reanimating the dead, and removing a person's free will are all generally seen as evil ends. While it's possible that they could be turned to good (animating a graveyard full of corpses to fight another army of corpses) the opportunities to do so are rare.
2) Evil Means: In order to focus the powers, or even just keep them around, there is an additional price, usually one a good person would balk at paying. A hero might use the Chalice of Night to animate the aforementioned army, but when he murders one of his siblings to get the ritual going, this character ceases to be a hero. While it's possible (though difficult) to remain sympathetic to him, he is now a villain or anti-hero.