It only recently occured to me that in my WIP I might have borrowed a species idea that was copyrighted or otherwise protected. In my fantasy story I use classic species like humans, dragons, fairies etc, but I also always liked the idea of shapeshifting creatures similar to in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
I don't call this species "changlings," there is no "great link" nor do I reference the show in any other way, but could I be in trouble for using a species whose natural state is that of liquid and can form itslef into any shape desirable?
Clearly if I were to put Klingons in my novel the stolen species would be obvious, but this case seemed less extreme, since you could also argue I got the idea from the Terminator 2's T1000 (or other similar creatures from other sources I'm unaware of, I'm sure).
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
Shapeshifting aliens are a longstanding SF tradition. You're OK.
Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :
Shapeshifting is more than a Science Fiction element. Shamans in many countries the world over have long been purported to engage in shapeshifting. Check out the Carlos Castenedas books about Don Juan Mateus, the Yaqui sorcerer. (One title is "A Separate Reality") Don Juan was a shapeshifter.
Posted by SteeleGregory (Member # 2049) on :
Changelings have been around in folklore forever. Here's a link to some examples:
The basic idea is that a changeling kidnaps or kills a child and takes his form. Star Trek happily borrowed from the legends, as did "Invasion of the Body Snatchers", "The Thing" (John Carpenter version), and any number of other sci-fi stories.
Don't worry about adapting a general idea or creature type that you've seen in other stories. You wouldn't worry about using an elf, ghost, werewolf, zombie or vampire, would you?
Even more specific things can be okay.
Here's a story idea: Killer cyborgs travel through time intent on destroying the human race.
Now guess what cyborgs I'm thinking of: The Terminator? The Borg? The Daleks?
You see? All very different uses of the same general concept.
In short, you're okay. Borrowing concepts is good. Just do something different with them.
Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :
Ok thanks, I was pretty sure this was the case, it was just that since the "reverts to a liquid" type of shapeshifter was (in my mind anyway) unique to Star Trek, I thought I'd see what you all thought. Thanks.
Posted by SteeleGregory (Member # 2049) on :
Okay... now that might be a little too specific for my liking. In the legends, the changeling does revert to its original form when discovered. Usually that form is a person, animal or spirit of some kind. If you're saying that your changelings need to continually concentrate or revert to liquid form, like Odo, you may be getting a bit too close to the Star Trek version.
You may not actually be in legal trouble over it, but I would avoid that similarity unless it was vital to the story. Ask yourself "Why does my creature have to be a liquid?" and "What else could it be to achieve the same goal in the story?"
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
I have no problem with a shapeshifter reverting to a liquid or gelatinous form as its "natural" shape. It is the most plausible form for something that is able to shape shift, after all.
Note that this idea is also borrowed from T2.
Now, if you play around with them all belonging to a single superorganism called "the Great Link", calling themselves "Founders" or something like that, you might be going a bit far.
On the other hand, you should read a few more stories that have shapeshifters in them, enough at least to overcome the notion that they are peculiar to DS9.
Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :
And try asking yourself, "Would having the character shape-change into something OTHER than liquid (ie, plasma, electricity, etc.) be beneficial to the story?" Ask yourself something about the race of creatures that would evolve as shape-changers. Most evolution is a survival-of-the-fittest process. How would being a shape-changer have helped the race survive?
Keep asking yourself questions. You might get answers that are far more intriguing than your original concept.
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
This may not count since it isn't the actual aliens shapeshifting, but the movie Abyss shows aliens shaping water into whatever they want. I thought it was pretty cool.
Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
How about a killed robot driving instructor that goes back in time for some reason?
Did I mention that his best friend is a talking pie?
Ok, ok, that's from the Simpsons...
Posted by Robyn_Hood (Member # 2083) on :
It took me a minute to think of another shape-shifting application and had trouble placing it. I remember seeing something in a movie where the shifter pours through something and reforms as a human or something. I might be thinking of "The Mummy" where Imotep (sp?) changed into sand and poured himself through a key-hole, but I'm sure I've seen it somewhere else and it wasn't DS9.
Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :
When I picked the "reverts to liquid" shapeshifter I had essentially the same reasoning as Survivor. It just seemed the most reasonable state for a creature capable of changing shape however it deems fit.
As for does it HAVE to be able to do that, as opposed to a human-like creature that can simply change shape into other creatures, yes it kinda does. Alot of the time, in combat, they don't just take on shapes of things, but are capable of doing numerous other tactics using their capability to the full advantage it could be. (For example, a shifter might, say, form its hand into a dagger, stab you, and then expand the portion of its body thats inside of you rapidly until you are torn apart from the inside out.) These are things a being who can only change shape from one creature to another couldn't do.
But no, there is no "great link" they are not "founders" etc. The only thing similar to DS9 changlings is the mechanism by which they change shape / their natural form.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
If you have the shapeshifter obey the laws of conservation, that alone should distinguish it sufficiently from Star Trek.
Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :
Well as a physicist, I really can't help but make my shifters obey the laws of conservation, otherwise I wouldn't buy it. Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
The whole stabbing/etc. tactic sounded very T2 to me, not so Star Trek.
One thing to consider, if the shapeshifter can do that, then it must have the ability to become (even if only temporarily) strong enough to make a good knife/dagger. Since we're talking about a basically homogenous body here (I'm presuming that because of the liquid form, but it's a pretty safe presumption, don't you think?), that would seem to imply that the entire body could reach that same level of structural strength for at least short periods of time.
I'd think it a good deal more reasonable to simply conceal some weapons inside. Of course, my favorite amorph uses both strategies, even though he lacks the savoir-faire to disguise himself as anything other than a rather large fecal sample...with eyeballs.
Posted by SteeleGregory (Member # 2049) on :
Hmm... Why couldn't a shapeshipter just absorb extra material from his surroundings when necessary? Conservation of mass wouldn't be an issue then.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
I should have known you would be a Schlock fan, Survivor.
I have two original Schlock drawings here at work, including one of "Baby Schlock."
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
The conservation of mass issue I'm referring to is stuff like "Odo turns himself into a rat then transorms back to human size without discarding or absorbing anything."
Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :
Actually, if you assume that a shapeshifter of a natural liquid shape can change his density as well, there's nothing wrong with transforming into a rat - a rat as heavy as a human anyway. But you would have to take things like that into account, as I make sure to do. For example if anyone came across the rat and tried to pick it up, they would be in for a shock at how hard and heavy it was. This is also the reason a shifter could stab someone with part of his/her/its body as well. I'm assuming they can compact that part of their body into a very hard, very dense material to achieve the strength a steel sword might have, etc.
As for simply absorbing extra material to grow bigger... do humans work that way? Take almost any organism. If you wanted to grow it bigger and simply fed it a whole lot, true that might help it grow over time, but any creature's metabolism can only take so much at a time. Unless you're talking about simply forming a shape around something to appear larger, and not truly absorbing it. (I use the term absorbing for the way shapeshifters consume matter for energy, analagous to eating, so the disctinction is an important one in my mind at least.)
Posted by SteeleGregory (Member # 2049) on :
No. Humans don't work that way, but humans also can't change their structure at a molecular level at will either. Since a shapeshifter can, perhaps the rules are different for them. Maybe only pulverized material could be absorbed and used. Or organic. Or water. Maybe the shapeshifter secretes a chemical that breaks down matter, then another that restructures it.
Since a liquiform shapeshifter has no permanent internal organs, how does it eat and digest things? Envelop and absorb? Does it create a temporary digestive tract for that purpose? Something else?
How does it expel waste? What is waste to such a creature?
What about the lack of brain and nervous system problem? How does it think and retain memories? Do brain cells randomly float around in its liquid soup of a body? Does it have to keep a liquid core in any shape to continue cognitive functions? If it loses mass because of expelling wastes, injury or accidental seperation, does it start forgetting things or have trouble thinking?
I'd really like to know how such a creature would work. How would it evolve to the point of sentience in the first place? What kind of world could spawn such a thing? What would threaten its survival? Fascinating stuff.
Posted by JmariC (Member # 2698) on :
It seems to me, hypothetically speaking, that a shapeshifter of this type could also become larger than his/its normal mass, though at some risk. There are two ways I can easily see this happening, by hollowing or by fluffing (think cotton candy), in both cases a naturally liquid state would be best for belief.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Eating would be necessary anyway.
We'd have to assume that the individual cells/whatever of a shapeshifter could all perform various tasks like metabolizing and reproducing. I don't have a problem with eating to grow rapidly, as long as it takes hours rather than seconds for doubling or tripling in mass I'd probably buy it. In between, like minutes, and it'd be iffy for me.
But for changing density...I'll buy lowering your density by introducing air pockets and such, but increasing your density much above your liquid state would be very hard for me to believe, because of the nature of most liquids and particularly the most common medium of known life processes, water (or, you know, an isotonic solution of same). Besides, simply increasing your density wouldn't necessarily increase your strength at all. In fact, it would seem likely to reduce available strength because at least some of your tensile integrity was being used for compressing your mass.
Just the same way that having a really large BM that you're holding back impairs your fighting ability (part of the reason one effect of a flight/fight response is to loosen your bowels ).
Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :
quote:having a really large BM that you're holding back impairs your fighting ability
Somehow, this must explain the crappy fight scenes I've read in some stories.
Although it's information I truly had no desire to think about.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
quote: but increasing your density much above your liquid state would be very hard for me to believe
Doesn't that pretty much rule out most solid forms for the creature that aren't essentially a bag of liquid. Not to mention the energy lost in the phase transition or the energy required to remelt.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
No. After all, your solid form is a little less dense than your liquid form.
And with a metamorphic life form, it isn't like melting and freezing. The phase change model is just invalid from beginning to end.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
If that's the case, it has to be a very viscous liquid, like the goo they used to fill Stretch Armstrong.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Well, yes, that probably goes without saying. I thought we were all assuming that. It doesn't have to be quite as viscous as the goo they put in a Stretch Armstrong, but a very healthy gravy consistency would be about the most liquid such an organism could be and still be viable.
Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
Now what if the shapeshifter streched himself over something like a refrigerator, assuming he was strong enough to carry it then he could increase his size.
Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :
I would think it would be more plausible for a shifter to hollow himself out to appear larger than to actually carry around something big and bulky like a refrigerator. If you only need to create an outer shell for something you'd like to mimic, I could imagine a shapeshifter could get pretty huge if he wanted.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Well, unless he were actually using the refrigerator for something or intended to use it later. Like, if he were taking ice cream to a picnic. Or in my example above, if he were going to be involved in melee combat, it might be good to stow a knife or two somewhere. If he needed to impersonate a very heavy person under close inspection, then it might be possible to "ingest" something heavy but inert, like sand, to make up the difference in weight. That wouldn't improve strength at all, but that isn't the point.
If an increase in strength (but not power) were really needed, it might work to "swallow" an endoskeleton of some kind, possibly with dynamic tensile integration (static tensile integrity is sometimes called "tensegrity").
If you needed it to add power rather than just strength, it could be fitted with motors and controls of some kind. Interesting reversal of concept, instead of wearing some kind of power armor, the power armor would be on the inside. There are a number of benefits, in that it is easier to engineer and hide an endo-skeletal enhancement.
Naturally, that would require a lot more preparation than just eating some sand or whatever. It might be more difficult, depending on various things like how your shapeshifter naturally moves and deals with inclusions.
).
