The question:
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It feels like none of you are taking my opinion seriously, while raising your own opinions up as the right ones. I know you will deny this, but constantly my opinion means nothing and that isn't fair. I don't understand how to earn your respect so if could kindly explain...
Mystic, I will do my best to explain.
You see, writing is a difficult art. It is one we strive to perfect on this site. When we write, we are doing more than telling a story, we are evoking a reaction. To that end, it is incredibly important for us to understand why certain things evoke certain reactions in others. Not only does it help us to get along better on the internet, which is almost entirely written, but it helps us to become better writers.
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It feels like none of you are taking my opinion seriously, while raising your own opinions up as the right ones.
The nature of any discussion is that people raise up their own opinions as the right ones. Some people do this well, backing up their opinions with facts, celebrities, or cute little animals. There are many methods of persuasion that can work.
But even the best argument, written plainly, well thought out, and seemingly right (to the author) is not always agreed with. This is not to say that it is not taken seriously...there is a distinction.
My opinions are typically taken seriously on this site. They manage that because after years of being here I have proven, with my thoughts and words, that I often write something worth reading. But even I get ignored. Sometimes, even today, I write something that I thought was brilliant and when I come back to look, no one even mentioned it and in fact, it may as well not even have been posted for all the dent it made in the discussion.
But what does it mean?
Probably, that people are more caught up in themselves than in anyone else. The cardinal rule of getting along with people requires remembering that at all times. You'd be amazed if you knew how little people really did think about (I Mean that in terms of quantity, not quality) you. We all would.
When people post to this site, they often want to be heard more than they want to hear anything. That's just something that is. I can't even count the number of times I posted something only to see someone else post the same thing. But they had to be heard, and for themselves not for being an echo of my thoughts.
Now Mystic, to you specifically, so that you will understand how your best intentions can be warped by the views of the reader, let me show you in ALL CAPS my gut reactions to some of the things you wrote.
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If you THE MOMENT I SEE THE WORD "YOU" I TURN INWARD AND THINK OF ME. YOU ARE TALKING TO ME. IT MATTERS NOT IF I FALL WITHIN YOUR IF CLAUSE. are a writer and you ME? think writing is nothing, but a business, and you ME? can just pump out book after book with your only regard being towards making money and not towards the pleasure in writing a book, then burn every manuscript you own THIS COMES ACROSS AS IF YOU ARE TELLING ME WHAT TO DO. BURN MY MANUSCRIPTS? ARE YOU NUTS? , take a sledgehammer to your computer, EEK! and roll your car over your fingers VISCIOUS! because you don't deserve to use your talent. I THOUGHT GOD GOT TO DOLE OUT TALENT! A writer should take pride only in the fact that he has the talent to write and nothing more. PHRASED AS A STATEMENT OF FACT INSTEAD OF AS AN OPINION, IT SOUNDS LIKE A COMMAND. IT IS BETTER THAN THE FIRST SENTENCE BECAUSE THE "YOU" IS MISSING, BUT SINCE I IDENTIFY SO STRONGLY AS A WRITER IT STILL FEELS DIRECTED AT ME AND THUS STILL FEELS LIKE AN ORDER.
Now, logically I am certain that you meant all of that as an opinion and not, as it came across, as an order, but hopefully my highlighted reactions give you a glimpse into what went through my mind as I read it. Many of these things are gut-level reactions, barely helped.
A few other choice phrases that might have been problematic:
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If the first thing you tell me about your story is the amount of money you sold it for, I am probably going to hit you.
Resorting to threats of physical violence does not work well fo rme. It makes it seem [to me] that you are going beyond passion and entering into the realm of true meanness, whether you intended it that way or not. I'm sure you meant this as a figure of speech, but this is one that, especially amongst strangers, is best to avoid.
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I know what you guys are saying and it is true...but writing is not a business, it is an art.
Once again, this is an opinion but it reads as a statement of fact. The best ways to have people think about and respond more directly to your opinions is to phrase them that way. It is the opening into their fragile psyche that might get them to see it your way. When someone sees the world a completely different way and you tell them it ain't so the reaction tends to be in the form of a counter-argument or flat-out argument.
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So if you write and care little for what you write about, only worrying about if you will be liked and well-payed, go ahead, keep writing, but just remember that the "no vacancy" light never turns on in Hell.
Once again, the "you" makes it seems as if you are speaking to me whether or not I fall under the if clause. This time, though, I feel as if you have told me that I will go to Hell. As a person raised in a Christian society, this sends a powerful and distatseful message. Frankly, I don't want to go to Hell and it makes me feel uncomfortable when anyone tell ms I might go there.
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If people care so little about creating something new, inspriring, and wonderful, then I'm getting out of this craft because it sickens me to think that all writing is, is a source of income and not enjoyment.
Now this one's a little interesting. I've used similar arguments before and with as little success as you have. I think seeing it from someone else helps me to understand it's negative effect. This time, you have not come across as mean, nor have you come across as demanding. Rather, it sounds like the three-year-old who threatens to hold his breath until he gets his way. It almost seems to be conceding defeat because you have run down to your last possible argument. In terms of taking people seriously, people don't listen to people who are down to their last possible argument. At least, I don't.
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The nature of any discussion is that people raise up their own opinions as the right ones. Some people do this well, backing up their opinions with facts, celebrities, or cute little animals.
Christine, I love the way you write.
[This message has been edited by Mystic (edited August 15, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Mystic (edited August 15, 2005).]
Mystic: That reminds me of the last point I was going to make...I dropped it because this post was getting so long.
I wish no one had attacked you for your posts. I believe you intended them well even if, as I described in some detail, I saw potentially argumentative wording.
Flame wars get started like this:
1. Someone says something insulting, whether intended or unintended.
2. Reader reaction
3. Writer reaction
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 as needed.
POOF!
Because of your question I wanted to focus on #1...how an innocently intended matter of opinion can come across, to some, as insulting. I do, nevertheless, feel that sometimes the best place to stop these situations is at step 2. We've had this discussion before, though, and I did not want to focus on this part. I thought of this as an exercise in writer intention vs reader reaction.
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You should have been aloof, intelligent, and opinionated when responding to my primal thread instead of losing your facade as dometicated dogs to become wolves and tear away at my flesh, then as I limp away and ask forgiveness, the wolves turn back to dogs and tell me what a bad little wolf I have been.
Could you quote the section where you asked for forgiveness? I'm afraid that I missed that while I was trying to be aloof.
I really did want to show people how their words can be taken badly. To get back on that track, I will follow up with suggestions for how to have your words taken seriously and as you intended. These are general and not directed at any one person.
1. Phrase opinions as opinions. "I think George R. R. Martin's Game of Thrones is a terrible book."
2. Back up your opinions with facts. "Martin has many point of view characters and many parallel plotlines..."
3. Then show how this truth relates to you, personally: "... making it difficult for me follow those characters I actually care about."
4. Using "I" phrasing sounds cheesy and like silly psychology, but it can actually work. "I feel.." "I like..." "I wonder..."
5. Use the word "you" carefully. "You should..." vs. "Have you considered?"
6. Write in complete, grammatically correct sentences.
I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I'm sure they will come to me.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited August 15, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Beth (edited August 15, 2005).]
Beth: What?
People come to Hatrack to discuss ideas, to share different opinions. I think the goal of this site is to help each other become better writers and get published. Most people here are what I'd call "serious writers": the idea of getting money for their work doesn't make them shudder, and they like to exchange different opinions over various ideas. Maybe if you look around and read a lot of the other posts, you'll see that this isn't a personal attack on you: this is how the site is. And, you know what? I like it here.
(Oh, and in case you haven't noticed...we really aren't vicious. The purpose of this thread is to making you feel better about the argument. If we really were out to be mean, we'd be flinging mud instead and chasing you away with big sticks. But people around here really are very nice.)
[This message has been edited by Miriel (edited August 15, 2005).]
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By my standards, I do need to be punished, but attacking my opinion is not fair because then you come to the level I dropped to in human weakness.
The trick is to keep comments focused on your own feelings and intentions and don't attempt to label the feelings/intentions of others.
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I don't care if I am ignored, but I won't be attacked. If I am assaulted, I pick myself up and do double to whoever assaulted me.
In my humble opinion, Mystic, you began the entire discussion with an attack of your own, then balked when people did to you what you have said (above) you would do to them in a similar situation.
In a moral world we take what we dish out--and we do it gracefully. I have yet to see you apologize with any kind of sincerity. Nor have I seen any of those who overreacted to your comments do the same.
You've said you'd like someone to explain what you're doing wrong. Christine just told you. Listen to her. Read her words carefully. She's wise beyond her years and a gifted writer. In my opinion, of course.
But it seems as if you're under the impression that everyone here dislikes you unjustifiably.
First, no one dislikes you. You've raised a hackle or two. Just because you didn't intend to do so, doesn't mean that you didn't do it.
Second, unfortunately, some of the responses to your original post were less than mature themselves, but you have to expect that when you offer such forceful and negative opinions.
Third, you want us to be aloof and intelligent? Set the example. When the dog barks, other dogs will bark back. Justifiably. If you introduce yourself with an exposed underbelly, only then are the barking dogs unjustified.
Fourth, if you really want to be taken seriously, you must NEVER act/react emotionally OR (as Christine mentioned) with an 'I'm right, you're wrong' stance. Never. No one EVER gains by such. And the squeaky wheel, while it may get the grease, is also the most detested. You said you don't mind being ignored. Certainly you don't want to be detested?
So, what do we do now?
We sweep all this CRAP under the rug and start over.
"Hello. My name is Mystic, and I'm a writer..."
[This message has been edited by djvdakota (edited August 15, 2005).]
You've come to the right place to learn. These really are a great bunch of people around here.
I hope to see you around the boards a lot. Just remember to be polite and supportive and jump right in!
(See? That was easy! And if ANYONE says anything to get the arguments started up again, I will personally reach through cyberspace and smack you upside the head!)
[This message has been edited by djvdakota (edited August 15, 2005).]
I would start an argument, but what if Dakota really can hit me, through cyberspace? I guess I'd better behave myself!
On the topic at hand: some groups have the concept of "I" statements: statements I make about me. they're hardly ever threatening to others (if I say "I don't like this," it doesn't say anything about you), and they also help me find out things about myself I couldn't get by sweeping generalizations, or by diagnosing others. I think they rock.
Inkwell
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"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous
You've had a rocky start, but it looks like you've been given a new beginning. Welcome to Hatrack.
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My opinions are typically taken seriously on this site.
In the pursuit of fairness and equity, I hereafter promise to call the seriousness of Christine's opinions into question.
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The best ways to have people think about and respond more directly to your opinions is to phrase them that way.
Surely you can't be serious!
For me at least, that was the greatest thing about graduating high school (many,many years ago). I went to a tiny country school. After 13 years of seeing the same people that judged you for the clothes your wore, what you said and whether you drove or rode the bus, I was ecstatic to find the world at large didn't care one whit about me. For a truly liberating experience to be yourself without being judged I recommend living in San Francisco (just leave before you become a real whacko).
The other comment I wanted to make about her statement is that it's the secret to conversations and dating. People are inherently more interested in themselves so the key is to talk about yourself while making the other person feel like they are getting equal time. Actually, it's part of the reason we write and post replies on the forums.
I'm done, someone else's turn to talk.
Where did the thing about women come from? I think you guys lost me.
Personally, I think Survivor hit it with the super-villain comment.
Though I expected you to come back with I am being serious! And don't call me Shirley.
Mechwarrior's the one that started talking about dating.