Looks like the tuition is going to be about $1500. I'm dithering. If it's nice . . . that's a lot. If it kick-starts my writing career, it's cheap.
Thoughts?
Other than that, I say take it. I wish OSC taught at UT Dallas.
As opposed to say, me, who was an art major.
quote:
I have a rare opportunity
Surely sounds like a rare opportunity. Wouldn't we all want to be taught by a very successful person in our craft of choice? If you missed this rare opportunity wouldn't you regret it? The answers seem obvious to me. Hopefully you'll be able to share some of the experience and wisdom you learn if you decide to take the class.
quote:
You could just ask him.
quote:
I Major in generals
You are the very picture of a modern major general...
I don't know if it's the tiny campus, or the LDS bent, or what, but everyone sure was nice. It was interesting having people ask me what my major is!
So, pick a character. Man or woman? Man. How old is he? They picked my age.
What happens when you're that age? Got to a writing class at SVU, I said. Mid-life crisis, others said. ("Hey!" I said.)
What do you do in a mid-life crisis? Piercings. (I figured I was safe from detection on that one.) Get a tattoo! (I made sure my shirt sleeve was down.) Buy a convertible. (I resolved to tell no one about my Jeep Wrangler.) After all, convertibles are bought by two kinds of people: 20-year-old women with more money than brains, and men in mid-life crisis with more money than brains. (Hey!)
On a more serious note, it looks like our homework will be pretty light, to someone who's used to Mike Munsil's weekly challenges, and I was thinking of bringing this up . . . are Mormons forbidden to murder classmates for asking for more homework? My school is Disciples of Christ, which has no official position on justifiable homicide.
I believe the position of some would be:
Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a class should dwindle and perish in excessive homework. (See 1 Nephi 4:13)
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited August 30, 2005).]
Either way, I don't think requesting additional homework was one of the sins that required blood atonement. I think you're safe.
I did physical anthropology as an undergrad and medical anthropology as a grad.
In other words, you picked out this guy for his expertise in teaching writing. Is it really such a good idea to start off by second-guessing his teaching methods?
Instead, why don't you outdo yourself on this homework, turn in the best writing OSC has ever seen in his class? Maybe you'll impress him. At least you won't be whining for more than he thought advisable to give.
I'm guessing "whining" is the problem, and I submit, wbriggs, that Survivor might have been speaking in hyperbole (ie, exaggerating for effect).
I don't think the effect intended was to insult you.
That was very far from my intent, and I apologize. I thought I was replying in the spirit that Will asked.
In sort of a mean way
By the way, I wasn't trying to be rude either. I actually removed a particular phrase that, though I thought it rather witty in a "doesn't this sort of thing always happen" sort of way, could have been interpreted as an aspersion on wbriggs writing ability.
I'm a little surprised that anyone could think referring to someone as "whining" would not be intended as insult. It hardly seems a compliment! But I get that you, Survivor, don't see how that could be rude. Ask people to describe your comments in that way for a while, and I think you'll get it. I appreciate the willingness you have shown to consider my comments on this.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited August 31, 2005).]
There is probably more inference of rudeness on the internet than is actually intended.
But I wasn't trying for irony, I was just pointing out one of the obvious problems with such a course of action. The one I concentrated on was that interfering with Card's teaching method would be counterproductive to the reasons you chose to take his class. But the fact that asking him to alter the amount or type of homework he gives you will not be likely to leave a favorable impression also deserved to be mentioned, so I mentioned it.
To clarify, I didn't mean to say that you were whining to us, I thought your post was funny. I was warning you that if you started asking Card to change your homework assignments because you felt dissatisfied with them, that would definitely be whining.
I know, I know, I'm sure that you weren't really thinking of doing any such thing...but you didn't actually say that you weren't really considering doing it. And, people here have done stuff like that. It really does happen.
I am not aware of any author anywhere I would rather take a class from! OK, it was Tolkien who blew me away, but... as a writer (not a reader) I wish I'd never heard of him -- he started LotR w/o knowing where he was going, and I thought that was ok! AFAIK he just started writing. I can't do it that way.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited August 31, 2005).]
It is true that he "just started writing", but none of that material entered his finished work except as "source material".
quote:
Also, they were written in the same period (1938-39), when The Lord of the Rings was beginning to unroll itself and to unfold prospects of labour and exploration in yet unknown country as daunting to me as to the hobbits. At about that time we had reached Bree, and I had then no more notion than they had of what had become of Gandalf or who Strider was; and I had begun to despair of surviving to find out.
--Mel
[This message has been edited by MCameron (edited September 01, 2005).]
Interestingly, (although a little off-topic), Tolkien seemed to be an intractable edit-as-you-go writer. He found the world of scholarship and his own attention to detail so debilitating, that he wrote a rather depressing (presumably autobiographical) short story called "Leaf, by Niggle" about a man whose life's masterpiece is painting a picture of a solitary leaf.
[This message has been edited by J (edited September 01, 2005).]
Today's Thursday. Where is our update, Will?
Sorry, Mary. Back to your regularly scheduled OSC class notes.
--Mel
My characters don't just show up. They have to be constructed first!
Humility. OK, so people prostrate themselves and crawl on the ground, until this becomes a display of pride (because the most powerful people do it), and so the low-status pose keeps shifting ...
Duty. You can only do it if you don't benefit. So if you help your community you must leave town. If you help your family you must leave it. Or else go blind. Or, no, the magic won't work. Or maybe you can stay in town, but only if you become a hermit, and you don't love your family. Or ...
You can change into an animal, but you can't change back. Or, you're allergic to that kind of animal. Or, it makes you sick to be that animal for long, but now it makes you sick to be human again. The kingdom needs loyal tigers and elephants, and you're drafted -- but you'll never be human again. Or...
We didn't really get to making stories, much, after that. Maybe we should have done that in the second part of class.
More happened with me after class, and that's in my blog (youwillknow.blogspot.com).
* You've just ruined any suspense about whether the POV character died in the story. He didn't, or he wouldn't be telling the story now.
* He's distanced from the events in the story by what happened since (his experience, wisdom, etc.); 3P limited need not be.
These don't seem like debilitating problems, necessarily. Might work well for comedy.
OSC spoke of the Evils (my word) of 1st person present tense. I have written one story this way so far: it had a memory in it, which the MC found herself literally in, as in, she couldn't stop thinking of the past and be back in the present; she was magically put into the memory. I simply couldn't do this transition in past tense w/o being clunky. But I see that as a special case. I can't imagine why someone would use this in a story without time travel.
As we discussed fixes for this and that, I personally started considering how much of my difficulties in writing result from stubbornness. That is, I know that a story has technobabble in it that's too much for many readers, but *I* like it, so too bad for them. Or, I know that people got lost in too many characters in scene 6, but I don't want to cut any. Maybe it's time to be flexible.
I'm not sure what else to do to get published. I thought I might try a totally different, potboiler route: not come up with a story and then find a market, but identify a market and then think, "What story would be perfect for this one?"
I hope we can process these story-idea cards more quickly; that is, I like the idea of being prolific, and I think it's important. That's what I liked so much about the 1000 Ideas in an Hour idea: it made me able to produce stories way, way more quickly. I don't like lecture so much (in any class); after all, it's usually in the textbook. But the exercises in this class are way cool.
--
For some reason this also has me thinking of a gripe of mine, for another thread.
Picking POV is tough to me, here. Ira's POV looks preferable to me, because Ira's culture (Jewish) is less alien to me than the policeman's (some weird hi-tech Maya culture). Cop is hard to write, and is less sympathetic. Ira can have his own story, but cop is the one that really makes things happen, in it, at least, in the version I like. Maybe you could think of it as: Ira decides to trust cop. That's his action. Then we see what happens. I'm still not sure about this. I hate passive MC's. Could I have it from Ira's POV, but be about cop? OSC says: too confusing. I tend to think he's right. I can't find any stories that did this.
--
We also had this discussion. I have several stories that fit one of these patterns, all of which end with a POV shift at the very end. OSC's initial reaction is, "I'd throw the book across the room if I came across a last-minute POV shift," but I don't think I made myself clear. Or maybe I did, and it's a bad idea. I welcome comments.
Pattern 1 (using an old Asimov's story as an example): John comes back to Earth to negotiate with Lady Fiona of Scotland to buy her thousand-year-old castle. The whole thing, to be shipped to his star system, so his people can have a piece of history. Fiona seems reluctant, but Scotland is economically desperate, and nobility obliges her to see to her people's need . . . so she finally agrees. "Think what you can do for your people with this money," he says. The deal is made.
#
"OK," Lady Fiona tells the townspeople. "He fell for it. Time to start work on the next one!"
If I told it poorly, ignore my errors. Thing is, if we tell it from Fiona's POV, there's no twist ending. If we tell it from his POV and don't shift, we never get that there was a scam. You can't reveal to John that there was a scam, because then he'll stop payment, and the scam fails.
Pattern 2: John sees the magic unicorn painting in the castle, and thinks, "If I could just see a unicorn, I'd be happy from then on!" He's inspired to seek out unicorn rumors. This leads him on a fantastic adventure, blah, blah, and he goes on to some better world.
#
And even today, from time to time, someone will see the painting, and think, "If I could just see a unicorn, then I'd be happy from then on!"
This last paragraph is in omniscient, and the rest is in John's POV. Removing it wouldn't kill the story, but I wouldn't feel tricked if I read it.
Pattern 3: John does this, thinks this, etc., about and with Mary, and meets some final irreversible fate (maybe dying, maybe leaving and never returning.)
#
A couple of paragraphs about how Mary reacts now that John is gone, because at this point, we know her and want to know what happened at her end.
I recognize a certain cost, but I don't think it's high, provided the story really ends with John, and Mary's stuff is just a little wrap-up.
How would you feel, reading these plot structures?
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited September 08, 2005).]
quote:
You'll also find lots of claims that there never was any blood atonement doctrine
Anyway, sorry to go back to that. I just wanted you to know that it is possible to believe BY preached blood atonement and still defend him for it.
P.S. I guess I checked in to see if how the Card class is doing.
P.P.S. 1st person present tense is odd, 1st person past is how he and K.Kidd wrote LoveLock and I thought it was incredibly effective given that the MC was created to be a witness or recorder to his owner's life.
[This message has been edited by franc li (edited September 09, 2005).]
quote:
Ira's POV looks preferable to me, because Ira's culture (Jewish) is less alien to me than the policeman's (some weird hi-tech Maya culture).
I would go with the policeman. Here is why. When you consider these two POV, your normal reaction as a human is to pick the easiest one. I've found that any time I have caught myself taking a shortcut and doubled bak to do things the hard way, the results were much better. So here you have the opportunity to explore a very strange character, and you will learn about his ideas as you create them. They will be much mroe interesting, and too, you will have the opportunity to discover your own ideas as viewed from the outside. I think this gives you the potential of an incredibly rich set of characters.
I don't see why the castle story could be all from the Lady's perspective. She does, after all, have to act in order to pull off the scam.
I guess I should read "character and viewpoint" before getting too puzzled over the obsession on POV.
but mostly I wanted to say that a high-tech mayan culture sounds cool.
And you know what? It sort of makes me want to throw his book across the room when he does it
One important thing to note, each of the POV shifts wbriggs portrays take place after the scene with the previous POV has definitely closed. John 1 buys the castle and takes it home. John 2 has his adventure and goes to a better world. John 3 pines for Mary and then dies (or whatever).
This is different from a sloppy POV shift within a scene.
When you have a story taking place in a vastly different culture, and you have a POV character who is of that culture, the POV character takes the vast majority of his environment for granted. There are plenty of things that he not only doesn't think twice about, he doesn't even think once. This can make it very difficult to convey information about the culture to the reader. (I'm not saying it can't be done, obviously.) It often also requires the reader to figure things out from hints in the text.
For instance, in the milieu of my fantasy novel there is no moon, and the night sky has no stars. (The day sky has one: the sun around which the world orbits.) But none of my characters notice that there is no moon and no stars, because that's just the way the world is. So it's been rather difficult to get readers to understand that.
However, if you give the reader a POV character who is a stranger in a strange land (so to speak), it allows you to highlight aspects of the majority culture that members of that culture tend to ignore because it seems natural to them.
For example, the high-tech Mayan civilization probably still uses the Mayan calendar. Under most circumstances, a Mayan wouldn't think about how the calendar is organized -- he might look at his watch and see that today is 8 Muluc, which means his board meeting on 8 Chuen is only two days from now, but he won't think about how the calendar works.
But the Jewish POV character can think about how weird it is to have twenty day names to cycle through, and the inconvenience of having a separate calendar to determine which day is the Sabbath.
Thus, the Jewish character gives readers an easier position from which to view the differences in Mayan culture.
[This message has been edited by EricJamesStone (edited September 09, 2005).]
...and I'm reassured by Survivor's comments. And a night's sleep.
I don't actually write like that, mind you.
As for switching POV, I changed POV twice in my last novel. There are three chapters (maybe 15,000 words) before the main character is born, so I needed a surrigate POV. The last chapter occurs after the main character dies. Again, somebody else has to carry the ball. I don't really think anyone would get upset at a last minute POV change for that kind of reason.
Also, the person making things happen is often the antagonist in the story. That might not be the case here, but it is something to be considered.
For more on what happened in class, bop over to Forums, Discussions about Orson Scott Card, and the thread on Taking a class from OSC. I put the punchiest stuff on this thread, but there are 2 other students who post on that one.
No updates this week, unfortunately: no class this week!
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited September 12, 2005).]
http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003558
I can't imagine what's keeping you out. You don't even need an account to read the discussions (although you do need one to post).
2 more synopses. Each required a bit more world-building. Regarding one, a possible interpretation was that the ending was a practical joke being played on the reader. I didn't understand this ending, so I don't know if it's accurate, but OSC said, basically, don't go there -- a surprise ending that breaks the rules of the world as we understood them previously will not be fun.
We also did the scene-from-life-in-3P. It wasn't so much looking for minor POV violations (although we did that -- your POV character won't notice what she looks like, unless she's putting on her face!), as noting when the POV becomes cinematic, simply because we're not paying enough attention to reminding the reader whose thoughts we're in. Also, OSC suggested that if the most interesting person -- the one with the funniest lines, for example -- changes, the reader may think the POV is shifting: so give the real POV character a few anchoring thoughts. All this is about staying in 3PL, deep penetration. Other POVs are of course legit!
Also, he said that it was cool to notice what you can do in 3PL, dp, that you can't in cinematic. YOu can't show POV char's face, but you can do dialog+thoughts, like so.
"Of course I want you to come over," Mary said. "Any time." Any time she wasn't there, that is.
My main conclusion: some things to look for in the edit stage. I blew this really bad in a recent story on Liberty Hall, in which people didn't know the POV character until about halfway through.
Tell 'em up front
Check out this less-than-13-lines segment:
quote:
There was a lot to think about after a men's meeting. Frank offered Tim and his dog Rusty a ride back to their house, not really expecting Tim to take him up on it, since it was so close, but Tim agreed.Rusty said, "Whatever" -- in doggie body language -- and jumped in the back.
"So waht are you going to do about your dad's visit?" Tim asked.
"I guess I'll let him," Frank said. Tim had said, during the meeting: life's full of decisions. What's yours? Make the call.
"You 'guess'?" Tim said.
"I'll do it," Frank said. As Yoda said: do, or do not. There is no try. No "I guess," either.
Rusty had no comment.
Whose POV? Some thought: Tim. (Tim has relationship to dog and to Frank.) Some thought Frank, since he was "not really expecting" something; but OSC said, it could have been Tim imagining what Frank would expect (?). In any case, it can be fixed trivially:
There was always a lot for Frank to think about after a men's meeting. He offered Tim and his dog Rusty a ride ...
This has the added advantage that Frank, Tim, and Rusty don't appear in the same sentence; you get a little more time for Frank to settle in before more characters appear.
Remaining problem: 3-sentence flashback. "Tim had said..." OSC suggested putting this in paragraph 1, as soon as Frank offered Tim and the dog a ride. You still have the flashback, but it can be used as a justification for the offer of a ride, thus also answering the question: why did Frank make this offer?
Alternately, just omit it.
Problem for me: knowing what the reader is going to wonder aobut. Clear thing: if it's something the reader will wonder about, do it in paragraph 1; or, at least, paragraph 2. Paragraph 1 is "free," that is, it can be expository, violate POV, whatever.
OSC has also said: if you start a new section/chapter, tell the reader the change in venue/POV char/time elapsed in the very first sentence.
The two things I was concerned about when I wrote this: making people not do a double take when, later on, the dog has dialogue. So I worked and got this so that the class had no trouble with it; no explanation needed -- I eased them into it.
I was also concrned that people would wonder about this "men's meeting" stuff; or, why didn't you tell us earlier that Tim runs a business (which becomes relevant later)? They didn't. Instead, they didn't get 2 words I used: "Aspberger's" and "maudlin." Know Thine Audience.
Tell 'em up front, OSC kept saying. It's OK to tell the reader your cool story idea in paragraph 1! and then show it to them. Suspense is knowing 99% of what's going on, and being driven berzerk by the remaining 1%. (It *isn't* being confused about what's going on!) We keep saying this in Hatrack writer's workshop. New writers want to create mystery this way. As for me, I just thought everybody knew what I was thinking! Also true for others in the class, I think.
Better to say "duh!" than "huh?"
More on POV
In 3PL, deep penetration, let the writing not call attention to itself, but to the character: the character provides the humor (or whatever emotion).
Subtle detail. We were deep in 3pl (in another story), and the author said of the MC, "...and then she hit upon a plan."
This was justified, and the writer went on to show us the plan, but it did remind us we were in a story. It's a cost.
"She looked worried." Not if she's the POV character; she won't be thinking about how she looked! "She grinned." Well, this can be -- but what if she's alone? Do people grin alone? Maybe -- but you could show her attitude internally.
"She was happy." Possible, but almost never do we need to say the emotions; they can be implied by actions and thoughts. Thank you, OSC: I get so annoyed at [gripe]paragraphs full of someone feeeling terrified, gasping, having his heart leap into his throat while his hands shake and his thoughts turn to the alien's hot breath and on top of it all he's really, really scared ... argh! Once I heard that there was an alien monster with big teeth coming his way, and his hands are shaking when he picks up the ray gun, I'm pretty sure he's scared![/gripe]
Some of this was very subtle.
Mary's POV. Husband is John. "Blah?" he asked his wife. Problem: she doesn't think of herself as "his wife." "Blah?" he asked her -- works better.
"With anticipation, she..." Well, not breaking a rule, but we can get the anticipation from her waiting and watching.
(So, Maria, is that enough detail for the week? )
Oh, well.
quote:
Bob knew that the giant robot monkey would destroy him and Jillian felt a horror as the robot monkey came closer.
If you are not Nabokov, approach POV shifts with great caution.
But here are some
* Really, really, don't start a story in a meeting.
* Really, really, tell us up front what is happening. Here at Hatrack, we warn against info dumps. What we should warn against is irrelevant info dumps. Relevant info is essential. Relevant info is what the POV character knows and we want to know too, so we can understand what's going on.
* Pick your POV and stick with it.
* Really, really let us into the character's thoughts. Don't be cinematic; we have cinema for that. If MC is happy, don't let her grin; let her reflect how nice the daisies are. If MC is impatient, don't make him say, "We've been here for hours!" Instead, put in the statement, "They'd been there for hours."
* Melodrama: having a character react with more emotion than the reader will. Just say no. To make the reader cry, have the character hold those tears in.
* Tell us what the character is raging about FIRST . . . then show us those clenched fists. That way we can relate.
* The POV character should be someone whose actions are relevant to the story, and who doesn't die before the end
* If you're going to have humanized animals (like in cartoons, say), set the rules and stick with them. You can have them sleep in burrows and live in fear of predators (Watership Down) or drive cars (Goofy) -- just be consistent
* Did I say, don't be cinematic? Don't do it all in dialog, or in things seen. Use thoughts. Let us know what things signify. If Peter sings a song and MC Nora bats away a tear, let us know what the song means to her.
Will
quote:
College drop-out
Me too. Though I'm going back in the Spring to work towards a History major. (focus on American History, specifically the late 18th century and the American Revolution)
JOHN!
Congratulations!! And I'll bet this answers the question: "Will it be worth it to spend the $$$ to take a class from OSC?"
Next semester: novel writing class.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited January 15, 2006).]
Seems to me though that OSC spent a lot of time teaching stuff he has written about in his books on writing.
If you ever have the chance to take any sort of course from him, jump at it.
Kathleen, sometimes I have felt that "Respite" was a fluke, but I don't really believe that. I just need to find a way to consistently get ideas that incorporate the basic storytelling elements I happened to stumble on in that story . It would have been nice if I'd been able to go to Boot camp, as it would have hastened the process, but my main obstacle at this time is really more butt-in-chair. I know the nuts and bolts, it's the execution where I lose steam.
Survivor, Scott has seen about a half dozen of my stories since then. He accepted one for publication with the proviso that I tweak the ending. I did so. He felt it still wasn't ready and decided not to buy it after all. A couple of the others he liked very much, but weren't right for his magazine (I knew that ahead of time, no surprises there). He has one on his desk right now that I have hopes for, and he'll read it before finalizing the second issue, but he's been so busy for the past several months that he hasn't read it yet. I'm not going to send him any more until he's had a chance to read that one. And even if he likes it, it has some language and may exceed the PG-13 rating of the magazine.
But as far as Scott's helpfulness is concerned, he's really done a lot for me. He's boosted my self confidence immeasurably. He's compared my writing to his when he started out, and his relationship to me, to that of his with Ben Bova at the beginning of his career. He's been consistently supportive and praising of my efforts, and has written me multiple emails on the craft of writing, and my writing in particular. He's also publically praised my work on the other side of the forum, and offered to help me when I finish my first novel by looking at it for me and possibly recommending it to publishers.
In that sense I've gone one better than bootcamp. And I'm still friends with many of the people who attended, because of this forum and Codex, where many of them hang out.
Really the only thing I miss was the enforced writing time. I do much better with deadlines, as I'm a very lazy person by nature. I have to fight that to get any writing done. But even that aspect I'm working on. I try to find deadlines as much as I can, and enter contests and the like to help spur me on.
Seems to me that you're well on your way to becoming a very successful writer! Leave the rest of us hacks the opportunity for help!
Ronnie