This is topic Italics in 3rd Person DP in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


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Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
 
I know this has been done to death, but I need some advice on how to use italics with my POV. As far as I can make out, it's in Third Person DP. So are italics needed for these bits?

1) When a second inner voice is used:

quote:
Even though he didn't feel like it, Tavi forced himself to take a much-needed bath and, as he ate dinner, it occurred to him that if Falmet truly believed the accusation, she would not have bowed at all. His heart lifted ever so slightly at this.
She would've had every right to disdain proper protocol, just as Baland had. Or, said a dead, dull voice, she might have been too frightened to do anything that would upset a killer such as yourself. He got up from the table, his meal unfinished.


2) When a quick, imperative thought occurs:

quote:

A guard. Why had he been so careless? Now he would be dragged into the light and they'd see he'd escaped again. They would beat him. Worse, they would beat Falmet. Get away. Now.


3) To show a quick flashback image:

quote:

Silvam would be alive and with him still, if it hadn't been for the knife, the foolish, carelessly left out knife -- handle slick and red and protruding from the old man's chest, the old man gaping wide like a sacred fish, eyes glossed with pain, scrolls everywhere, blood everywhere, on his tunic, on his hands…
Tavi looked down at his own hands resting on his lap, clean and brown and dry. They were trembling.

4) To show an almost uttered phrase:

quote:

O, Liars! Tavi wanted to shout, but held his tongue, even though it took every fiber in his being.

5) Remembering a voice from the past:

quote:
Every life is sacred, the old man would've said, even yours.


So what do you think? Is this usage appropriate? Or is there a better way to show such moments without the shifty, slanty letters that (I'm told) are to be avoided at all cost?

[This message has been edited by Varishta (edited September 14, 2005).]
 


Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
 
I groaned when I saw the thread name, but actually, you bring up some good scenarios.

1) When a second inner voice is used:

I'm not sure where you were going with this example. Are there two people in her head? Is there telepathy going on here? Who, exactly, is thinking the part in italics?

2) When a quick, imperative thought occurs:

This is a perfect time to use italics. Short, to the point, and requiring extra emphasis.

3) To show a quick flashback image:

In your example, you did two things...switched to present tense AND used italics. I'm not sure what I think about that. To be honest, the whole example was jarring.

4) To show an almost uttered phrase:

Yes. Although this should happen rarely, even in deep penetration, this is a perfectly good time to use italics.

5) Remembering a voice from the past:

No. This would be a time to use quotations.

"Every life is sacred," the old man would've said, "even yours."

Or actally...this isn't phrased how I had thought at first. Remembering a voice from the past, in my mind, means remembering something someone actually said. "Every life is sacred," the old man had once said, "even yours."

This is different from imagining what the person would have said. In the latter case, italics would be appropriate to distinguish this from the character's actual inner voice.

****

Basically, use italics when something special is happening. When you have to emphasize something because it is another person's thought, a short, specific, and verbatim thought, something poignant and important, etc. Don't use italics when the character is musing to him/herself in deep third person point of view. That would get annoying and require italics over the whole story!
 


Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
 
What Christine said, even the initial groaning.
 
Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
 
Sorry to cause all the groaning.

I extended the first example to clear up some of the confusion, so you can read more of the first draft (in all its rough-shod glory). Even so, I just realised that without context, you wouldn't know that Falmet is a she. What a mess!

[This message has been edited by Varishta (edited September 14, 2005).]
 


Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :
 
We are so in synch I'm scared. The only thing I have to add to Christine's comments is in #2. Although italics work, I'd prefer

He should get away. Now.

...without the italics. It's just a little less work on the reader.
 


Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
 
OSC told us in the Uncle Orson's Writing Class portion of bootcamp that italics for internal monolog is out of fashion, and your editor might remove them for you.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
 
I'm afraid what works for OSC may not work for the rest of the world. In fact, I sold a deep third person limitd story back in January without italics for inner monologue and when they published it they added the italics for me.
 
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
I remember Frank Herbert putting the inner thoughts of characters in italics in "Dune." Every character. Different characters in every scene. It took nearly a third of the lengthy book before I was sufficiently undisgruntled by this being done to relax and enjoy---and this was when I was only about twelve, way before I even thought of being a writer!

(The David Lynch movie of "Dune" managed to mangle this further by having the actors keep their mouths shut while their voices were dubbed in.)
 


Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
 
I forgot to mention another instance --

6) To show a foreign word or concept:

quote:

He fixed his attention toward the great stone haikals shimmering on the horizon...

The only time I do this is when an English word can't convey an exact meaning, and I don't feel like bringing the story to a screeching halt to explain everything.

Nevertheless, it could get annoying.

It's interesting to see how different worldbuilders have handled "foreign" words. Frank Herbert's Dune didn't italicize them, but simply put a glossary in the back. Tolkien italicized AND had a glossary. Robert Jordan and Stephen King, on the other hand, continue to use foreign phrase italics by the truckload. And J.K. Rowling, despite her tendency to italicize emphasis and thought, lets words like "muggle" be known by inference alone.

Hmmm. What to do, what to do...

Write and fret later, I suppose.


[This message has been edited by Varishta (edited September 15, 2005).]
 


Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
 
I would not italicize a foriegn word. It drive me up the wall when people do this. Now, not only do I have to slow down and concentrate on the word (which may be beneficial for emphasis) but I have to decipher an unfamiliar pattern of latters in a slanty format.
 
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :
 
I agree with Christine except that you didn't shift to present tense in the flashback example--you included a string of present participial phrases, which are just fine in past tense. I didn't find the example jarring at all.

And sadly, Christine, it is considered correct (I believe) to italicize foreign words. It's one of a few places where I disagree with general accepted style.
 




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