Hatrack River Writers Workshop: How critical is a 'love interest'

This is topic How critical is a 'love interest' in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

I read this part of an interview on Australia's ABC Radio National website with novelist Colleen McCullough:

quote:

Ramona Koval: How important is a love interest in a whodunit?
Colleen McCullough: You have to have it. If you don’t, your publisher screams blue murder.
Ramona Koval: So did you have to put one in after the first draft, or…?
Colleen McCullough: No.
Ramona Koval: You knew that rule.
Colleen McCullough: This is novel number 16 or 17, something like that, so I’m well aware that you have to have some sort of love interest in a book, and I congratulate myself when I manage to wriggle out from under being obliged to write love scenes, which I hate writing. Describing a non-verbal activity is terrible. I didn’t really have to put in any big love scenes in On, Off which was great. You want to see at least one of your major characters involved on a human level that has very little to do with the problem on hand.
Ramona Koval: You want to give a bit of a respite too, don’t you, to everybody. But everybody likes a bit of romance, don’t they?
Colleen McCullough: Well, they like a bit of a love interest, yes.

I, personally, despise the love interest thing, and avoid writing them into a story. Is this a mistake?

What are your thoughts on this sort of thing?

Edit:
Despise is a strong word, I guess I avoid it because it seems too hard to do well.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 22, 2005).]

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

I suppose, technically, that a character could be in love with an inanimate object rather than a human being... would that qualify as a love interest? Perhaps.

Because all the various kinds of relationships are crucial to our survival, most of them involving some degree of love (or even hate), then writing in a love interest is probably the most natural and easiest thing to do -- many of us probably do it without conscious effort. Most everyone loves someone else. And a new, romantic relationship is particularly thrilling for those involved -- and far too often, those on the periphery of it. Since having children is also crucial to our survival as a species, then love interests in long fiction seem almost necessary.

It's also an easy way to gain sympathy for a character. Most, if not all of us, have fallen for someone at some point in lives. We know precisely how we felt or still feel when that happens, so it's easy to understand how the character will feel. It doesn't require a whole lot of setup, either. One could simply write: "He loved her more than anything else in the whole wide world." And you'd know exactly how that character felt. Even better, if the love is unrequited, then you have perfect conflict, too.

Do you need a love interest? No, but since we're all human, and most of the characters we write usually pass for human, then it's only natural that a character will fall in love with someone they meet along the journey. Life happens. Love happens. People get together and more life happens. It's nearly unavoidable.

And, of course, it all depends on the story you're writing and the characters involved. Do whatever your story needs, is my point.

[This message has been edited by HSO (edited November 22, 2005).]

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

There must be a seductive chemistry somewhere for that particular genre. I'm sure there are all kinds of ways to handle it creatively.

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

For some reason this leads me to make the statement that "Batman Begins" was a better prequel than "The Sum of All Fears". The thing is, I was trying to think of a protagonist who is in a stable relationship and the one that sprang to mind was Jack Ryan. I don't know if it's a genre difference, but he has his wife as his love interest (as far as I know...). Batman, on the other hand, is always sort of interested in a different woman due to his secret identity and his inner angst or what have you.

Anyway, I think a love interest is a pretty easy thing to have in a story because what provides opportunities for characterization like a love interest?

If you'll forgive me for straying [further] from the mystery genre, I think love interests that are not romantic can be engaging as well. There is the much used dead relative, as we see in the early Harry Potter series. I think someone can have a nemesis thing going on as well.

I don't know, though, I see ads for mystery programs on PBS and I'm having a hard time thinking of them as having love interests. Especially the monk. Or that lady who seems like her true love is probably either cats or gardening. It may just be the subgenre in which this woman writes requires a love interest.

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

We also have to remember that a love interest can be depicted in many ways. Just because a character has a love interest doesn't mean you have to write 'love scenes'. They could be two people who are happily in love, then end up facing a certain situation together, but because they are unique individuals they will react differently, and that causes romantic conflict without you having to write romance.

Personally, I'm more interested in non-chemical love in my stories. I'm fascinated by it. I have one story in progress about twins (brother and sister) who love each other. In my big WIP, the main character has a 'love interest' but it is totally platonic and therefore deeper in many ways.

But I don't think all stories need love. Personally, Star Wars (the originals) would have done just fine without the love thing. Better, even. And the prequels...well, we won't go there.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I think it's a horrible attitude for an editor to take, that you MUST have a love interest in a detective story. The Queen of Crime herself only did it occasionally; it's usually irrelevant.

But it's fine if it fits.

Posted by yanos (Member # 1831) on :

Good point, WBriggs. I'd forgotten that Agatha did not use romance much in her stories.

I think some of it will depend on the age and circumstances of your character(s). If your character is 55 then it is less likely that there is any romance/love interest. If character is 21 it is almost certain there will be unless he's a total geek and even then there will be longings.

Just write what's appropriate.

Posted by D_James_Larkin (Member # 3007) on :

Hrmm.. so, if my cast were a bunch of talking worms, and since they are A-sexual, I would be forced to have them run around having sex with.... themselves. Now there's some quality bedside reading.
:rollseyes:

I for one would not enter into a contract with an editor who required it.

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

It depends on how anthropomorpized your worms are beyond talking. Do they carry little briefcases and wear pearls? Also, I think worms can be... uh, involved with themselves but they are designed to do it with another worm where available. At least the worms I dissected, the bits were too near one another to be accesible normally.

P.S. I think having a love interest is part of making a story accessible for a wider audience. I mean, we can write books in esperanto if we want, but no one has to publish them. The publisher wants to sell books. If we don't want to give them books that will sell, there are plenty of authors who will. And there is nothing wrong with that.

[This message has been edited by franc li (edited November 23, 2005).]

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

If not a love interest then a caring relationship of some form. Father - son. Man - father. A less robust friend from youth. A kid in a hospital that the MC goes and reads to once in a while and gets savant sage advice from.

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

I've been thinking about HSOs post.
I think it is true that the love interest may not have to be a person. (Please forgive the cheese factor in the following)
After all, didn't luke skywalker flirt with the dark side. Might that be considered his 'love interest'? Will he/will he not be seduced?

Is it an essential part of the hero's journey?

Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :

I think you can write a story with a fair amount of sexual tension and still avoid mentioning it directly at all. All it takes sometimes is the right situation to raise the awareness of it in the readers mind.

I wouldn't say it's always necessary, but it is an element of life, and if the story is True, chances are it will crop in some way or another.

Posted by rcorporon (Member # 2879) on :

I think that for a modern audience, it is expected.

I write fantasy, so allow me to stray away from the whodunit (what an awkward word.)

When I hammered out the outline of my novel, I noticed one thing when I was done. There were no female characters.

Now, this wouldn't have bothered me, but I realized, if I ever want to sell this, I need to have a female in there somewhere . Now, will I put in a love story? Probably not... I think the sexual tension between characters is always more interesting than the actaul sex, so I'll probably stick with that.

Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :

Yeah, I agree with rcorporon that having no female characters suck. On the other hand, it is possible to have a novel without a love interest, I think. But harder to pull off. As some people have said, you need the hero(es) to have some kind of caring interest otherwise they're total jerks.
I'm not speaking for my WIP, in which half the cast ends with the other half (erm, those not dead, that is).
I'm reminded of "The Other Wind", in which the hero is married and getting old, and which has few romantic scenes, really.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I'm intrigued by the line of thought here. I rarely write about characters in romantic relationships, on the "write what you know" line of advice. Still, I could gull something up along those lines...as long as I can avoid being too clinical about details...

Posted by Leaf II (Member # 2924) on :

I just figured I would point out that my absolute most favorite book ever, "Ender's Game" has no love interest in the 'traditional sense' for the Main character. Sure, the novel is driven by Ender's love for Valentine, and the lack of love by Peter toward Ender. But it is proof for anyone despairing that a novel can be successful and AMAZING without having 'romantic involvement

$.02

- leaf

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

A great point!

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

Yeah, it's a good point. Because the story is about children. Incredibly intelligent children, but essentially still children. How on earth could anyone fit a "romantic" love interest in such a story and make it believable? Isn't the reason clear enough?

Can we pick a story that works without a love interest and involves adults instead?

I can think of several, but that's beside the point.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

Ironically, one of the reasons the movie version of Ender's Game is taking so long to become a reality is that OSC has had to battle the movie moguls specifically because they wanted to cast Ender as a 16 year old so he COULD have a love interest.

Here's a title for HSO... How about Lord of the Rings? (The books, not the movie) The main story revolved around the nine males who set forth on the quest. I don't think you can seriously count the love interests with Éowyn, Rosie Cotton, or Arwen as a significant factor in the plot. They were merely backdrop, like the characters love of pipeweed. The biggest deviation Peter Jackson made between the books and the movie was in developing the love story between Arwen and Aragorn.

I personally LIKE love stories mingled in with my fiction, but that's just me. However, I don't think they HAVE to be present for the story to be well done.

Posted by Leaf II (Member # 2924) on :

Well OBVIOUSLY i know WHY there isn't a love story in E.G. I was just pointing out a book where there wasn't one. And OBVIOUSLY there are books without a love interest. But people like to read them.. mostly. And I only pointed out Enders Game mostly cuz I'm reading it again (at the time of writing.)
And shut up... it's thanksgiving.
(not really shut up.. but you know..)

[This message has been edited by Leaf II (edited November 24, 2005).]

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

See, I thought of Petra immediately when Ender's Game was mentioned. But I first read it as a 19 year old (female). The relationship with Valentine is fairly vital, but remember how he unlocks the fairyland room- by kissing the serpent that represents the Hive Queen. Well, I think it does at least.

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

I thought the snake he kissed was Peter... Still, it's often been said that love and hate are two sides of the same coin, so maybe the emotions surrounding peter were part of the 'romance' in some way.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

On the love/hate thing, Robert McKee, author of STORY, talks about three kinds of relationships in a story: hero and sidekick (also known as support system), hero and bad guy (or protagonist and antagonist), and hero and love interest (also known as sometime support system and sometime antagonist).

If you look at the love interest as someone (or some thing) that is sometimes a help to the protagonist and sometimes a hindrance, then a love interest can be quite useful in making a story a little more unpredictable.

Posted by TruHero (Member # 1766) on :

On the topic of love interest, I think that it's the things that don't happen that are as important as the things that do happen. I have read several books where what most people would describe as the "love interest" never happened to get together. I think it is that type of sitiuation that is much more enticing than an all out sex scene. Take the TV shows "Moonlighting" or "Remington Steele" for example( not exactly great, but they work). The main characters were always just inches away from some romantic situation. I think it is the tension in those scenes that really make things work. You don't have to go into a huge, sappy love scene to let your reader know that two people have feelings for each other. It's the things that go unsaid that mean as much if not more than the actual physical contact.

But... I think if you cause that much tension between two characters, you had better resolve it eventually or the reader may feel cheated. You can't tease some one forever with that kind of relationship and not resolve it someway. It doesn't have to end in a sex scene either. It could end with the death of one of the characters, or they mutually separate, heck any number of ways could work for a resolution. My rule is: If you start something, you'd better finish it.

Oh, to answer the original question. I think that some sort of love interest should be an integral part of every story. Everybody loves somebody, it only makes sense, and it makes the characters seem more lifelike. In fact, I feel that if you don't use one, you are missing out on a bunch of plot opportunities.

[This message has been edited by TruHero (edited November 25, 2005).]

Posted by HSO (Member # 2056) on :

Further to "how critical is a love interest?" thing:

One way to look at it is giving your protagonist believable motivations for his or her actions.

If the protag (or main character) is trying to save the world, so to speak, why bother saving it if there no one or nothing he loves about it? If he's madly in love with his wife or some other thing, then saving the world is directly relevant, since said saving also saves his true love. Everyone has reasons for what they do. They may not always understand their choices and reasons, but they are always there.

Of course, everything has a price in some measure, and perhaps by saving the world, an unfortunate and unintentional mishap occurs in which the love interest is killed. Or not. But you can clearly see the power of such a plot line. Indeed, similar plot structures are used so often that it's weird not seeing it in a story.

So, in some regards, having some kind of "love interest" is critical. I don't think it has to be a one-on-one romantic love interest, but there has to be a reason why someone would suffer (and most protagonists do suffer miserably in trying to acheive their goals) in trying to right a wrong or whatever...

To paraphrase Morpheus: "What is a 'love interest?' How do you define what love is?"

Everyone is different. Yet everyone has at least one thing to care about, and usually they have so many more than only one.

I will say that I see a good many stories that lack depth because characters do the craziest stuff and have no good reason for doing any of it... Things like:

A guy is severely depressed, has no reasons to live, everyone hates him, and he hates everyone and the entire planet. And yet suddenly when an giant asteroid is heading for Earth, the guy is gung-ho about stopping it... for no good reason. Seems to me this depressed dude would be first in line at the predicted impact site. (Of course, that actually could be wonderful and believable motivation for the character... trying to die, but things prevent him from getting at his destination, and along the way he begins to care -- it's all relative to the story you're trying to write.)

It's one thing to have a wicked cool idea, and it's another to put in believable characters to effect that idea properly. Characterization and motivation are critical to most every story. Love interests help that along in no small measure.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

Regarding the love/hate thing: I've long maintained that hate is NOT the opposite of love. Apathy is. If you hate someone, you are still bound to them with your emotions. If you cease to care, you are free of the emotional entanglement.

Posted by Leaf II (Member # 2924) on :

Good point, Elan

+10

-leaf

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I want to believe that apathy is not the opposite of love.

Posted by TruHero (Member # 1766) on :

I want to believe that too. Besides, apathy won't work as a finger/fist tattoo, too many letters. You know, LOVE on the right hand and HATE on the left.

Posted by Leigh (Member # 2901) on :

quote:
I want to believe that apathy is not the opposite of love.

5 entries found for apathy.
ap·a·thy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-th)
n.
Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.
Lack of emotion or feeling; impassiveness

(Courtesy of www.dictionary.com)

I believe that apathy is the opposite of MANY emotions.

Posted by luapc (Member # 2878) on :

Hate may not be the opposite of love, but it is a stronger emotion than apathy. I would say that unless you want to show no interest at all, then hate would allow for more opportunities for story development.

Just my opinion, but I think stronger emotions work better in most situations for a piece if you're going to get into human interations. Apathy might come off too dull and boring, but might be right depending on the story.

As to the question of the post, I don't believe a love interest is necessary, but that depends upon the type of story. Fanatsy, for example, has a higher percentage of female readers and they like romance. Just look at romance novels and how many of them are sold.

Science fiction and Horror usually have more action and are more technical, so if there isn't a love interest, it probably has less impact. Most Science fiction readers are male also, which makes the exclusion easier. I'm not sure what the breakdown of the Horror genre is, so I don't know about that.

Males can appreciate romance and the love interest too, but seem to care about it to a lesser degree. Having this kind of thing in a story doesn't usually detract a male reader unless its blatant and overdone, so why not put it in?

If it fits the plot and story, that is. If not, then leave it out. Forcing it where it doesn't belong is a sure way to ruin a story in my opinion.

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

quote:
Hate may not be the opposite of love, but it is a stronger emotion than apathy. I would say that unless you want to show no interest at all, then hate would allow for more opportunities for story development.
Just my opinion, but I think stronger emotions work better in most situations for a piece if you're going to get into human interations. Apathy might come off too dull and boring, but might be right depending on the story.

Well, I agree and don't agree. Yes, hate is a stronger emotion for the person feeling it. But what about the person on the other end? For example, imagine you are passionately, heart-wrenchingly in love with someone. Which is worse: having that person respond to you with hate (which is at least an interaction of some kind), or having that person turn an indifferent shoulder on your effusive protestations of love?

An example that comes to mind (thought it's about father-child love, not romantic) is the scene in Fiddler on the Roof where Tevye turns his back on his daughter Chava for marrying outside the faith. We know he is conflicted, but from her perspective he is dismissing her with complete indifference, as if she doesn't exist. Watch how painful that is for her.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Well, then, the opposite of "love" is love. The opposite of "hate" is hate. Very simple, really.

Posted by arcanist (Member # 3049) on :

I agree with HSO. Mostly it seems like a love interest doesn't *have* to be there for the story to be good, but if the story is good, a love interest might just happen. If you have a group of characters that involve opposite sexes, the more they go through together the closer they're going to get. It's just human nature.
Does Errantknight need to fall in love with Stronwilledhealer after he saves the world? No. Are the two going to be attracted after traveling, fighting, etc. together? Probably.
Also, and this might seem kind of idyllic, but I put my characters through a lot of shit. It seems like the least I can do is reward them a little, and love seems to fit the bill.

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

I thought the opposite of love was fear. Though this is a biblically based opinion. In my experience, apathy is never really apathy, but sublimated hostility.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Or merely conscientiously suppressed hostility.

Posted by Casefile (Member # 3101) on :

I don't think it's essential, and I think it's a silly position to take that it's essential. A good love intrest can improve a story, sure. But having one for the sake of having one? That's just silly. You'd wind up making the story worse.

Posted by Zodiaxe (Member # 3106) on :

Most stories of this genre, deal with a certin dark and dangerous character, be it the criminal or the detective, pi, bounty hunter or other type of hero. So, it plays on the sensuality aspect of the danger. Damsel in distress throws herself at the rugged, chain smoking, hard drinking, ex-cop that handles his business with a fifth of bourbon in one hand and a Smith and Wesson in the other.

If there is no love interest, then like Batman, James Bond or Sam Spade there is always someone moving through the story that arouses the sexuality of the main character.

A love interest also adds more plot lines to future novels and gives the character someone with which to dialogue or bounce off his theories.

I have two characters in this genre. Maximillius Macedonius Euis Locs, a Roman general. Currently there is no love interest in the first book. the second book will introduce someone who moves through the story in which he has a fling with in order to fullfil a prophecy. In the third book, I am planning on him rescuing a slave by purchasing her and working a love interest from that angle.

Bartholomew Landry, a former professional football player now a New Orleans private investigator has Katie Arceneaux, a New Orleans attorney as his love interest. It helps explain how Bartholmew can stay in business when his clients usually can't afford to pay him except with pencils and loose leaf paper from a school supply locker in which one of his clients, a teacher, worked, shoes and hats from a sporting goods store where one of his clients worked, fresh fish from a Gulf fisherman...again, one of his clients...etc. It's the typical way a PI gets paid.

Katie sends the occasional paying client his way.

Peace,
Scott