If something's confusing in the 1st 13 lines, it isn't because we needed to see the rest; it's because it was already confusing and we needed to know it now. I speak not as an editor (which I'm not) but as a reader. I don't want to feel confused about what the author's saying, even if I find out later what he meant.
Same for hooks: I want it now. If you can't tell me up front why I should read this, I'm likely not to. Tell me!
Sometimes I'll come across text like this:
quote:I think: As if what? A few sentences later I find out. But I don't want to have to put up a marker on something that confuses me, feel confused while I keep reading, and then say, oh, that's what the author meant. I want the explanation as soon as it's needed. As in
As if, Michelle thought. Dad was always such an optimist. Sure you'll adjust, kiddies! She looked around. No mall. Nothing but trees. She would never like it out here in the sticks.
quote:
Michelle was never going to like it out here in the sticks, no matter what Dad said. He was always such an optimist. Sure you'll adjust, kiddies! She looked around. No mall. Nothing but trees. As if!
Much better. Pay me my 2 cents now.
[/rant]
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited November 30, 2005).]
Will is right on. Don't confuse me needlessly.
There is, however, a such thing as slipping info into the story a little at a time in order to avoid an info dump. Especially in sci-fi. It allows you to reveal the world and situation gradually. Good if done correctly.
That said, don't withhold info as a means of trying to create suspense. It just doesn't work. Tell me up front and let the suspense be a result of me wondering what is going to happen next, not a result of me wondering what is going on. That's not suspense, that's confusion.
You can tell a lot in the first 13. Giving us more of the same doesn't help. Once the writer can churn out a well-written 13 line set, THEN it's worth it to give them a critique for a larger piece.
Like those cheese samplers at the grocery store, that entice you so much you'll buy the whole product.
...besides, posting a hundred thousand words of novel would take up a lot of computer space...and if a hundred people did it, it would take up even more...
Love the cheese metaphor.
No hook: you never know the cheese exists at all.
No hook, but the author claims it's coming: a stranger comes up to you and tells you that in the store somewhere there's some really good cheese that you should go buy.
Bad hook: you're allowed to look at, smell and discuss the cheese, but never actually taste it.
Initially good hook that falls slack: you get to taste the cheese, but then they won't tell you what it's called or where in the store you can find it.
Good hook: you get to taste the cheese, even have a second one if you want, and they tell you what it's called and where to find it.
Great hook: on top of all that, they give you a coupon.
[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited November 30, 2005).]
Anyway, I feel the first 13 are just right. I think I believe in them because they challenge me. If it were easy, it probably woulnd't be right. It probably wouldn't help.
To borrow from Haley Joel Osment: I see hooks everywhere, walking around like they don't even know they're hooks.
In fact, I am starting to hate hooks. In so many stories they are so obvious and boring. I wonder why the writer thinks I have the attention span of a deranged gnat. Granted, the hook is intended more for the editor than the reader, and who knows? Maybe editors DO have the attention span of a small, biting, two-winged fly.
I don't agree that all readers 'want it now!'
It sounds like the complaint of the 'gimme gimme gimme' sugar-fix generation. The 'fast-food, delivered in under thirty minutes or its free' squad. And responding with the capitulatory: 'Let's shovel in the fat, sugar and salt and shut the kids up.'
What about 'slow food'. Classic recipes? You remember! Osso Bucco. Meals that take two hours simmering to get right. Sure, we can live on microwave mac and cheese if we want -- but hey! Is it living? We'll turn into the rag-butted, wombat-necked, splay-footed, morbidly-obese, 'its not what I eat just that I don't exercise enough' brigade.
Just my 2¢.....
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited November 30, 2005).]
quote:
In fact, I am starting to hate hooks. In so many stories they are so obvious and boring.
I would tend to agree, but I guess that's the difference between a good hook and a bad one. A good one will read like it belongs where it is. A bad one just jumps off the page and says, "Look at me!"
Gives the reader some idea what the story's going to be like.
Makes the reader curious enough to read the rest of the story.
A bad hook:
Bears no relation to the rest of the story, or does not give a clear idea what the story's about.
Confuses the reader.
There is a very thin line between "curiousity" and "confusion" that everyone must learn to walk for themselves, and which varies from reader to reader (for example, wbriggs, I liked your first presentation of Michelle much better. *grin*)
There's also the problem of length. In a short story, hell yes, you'd better have done something interesting in the first thirteen lines. In a novel - in my experience, at least - while it's still important to hook, readers are more likely to put up with a little confusion or a slow start. You've got a whole book to explain it to them, after all.
) I must say that I'lve lost my taste for F&F.I think that the first 13 may be important for a flash or short story, but for a novel, they are too little. When I read a novel, I give it 40 or 50 pages before I totally give up. If I only read the first page of some books, I would have missed out on some great ones (ever read the start of Grapes of Wrath?).
For me, I think that a service like "Critters" is vastly superior to F&F, no offence intended of course!
Ronnie
quote:
I've lost my taste for F&F.
I think that the first 13 may be important for a flash or short story, but for a novel, they are too little...I think that a service like "Critters" is vastly superior to F&F, no offence intended of course
F&F is not intended to be a comprehensive critique service. It serves a different purpose all together than www.Critters.org . F&F is a place for Hatrack writers to post a notice saying, "I have a piece, I need a full crit," or for new writers to get a sampling of what a critique looks and feels like.
Here on Hatrack, the best way to go about getting full crits on longer pieces is to join a Hatrack group. There is a forum to post your interest. I belong to a group and we collectively critique one section of writing once a week. Some of our members write short stories, there are a few of us in the group submitting novel chapters. Different groups work it different ways.
While critters.org is a great way to connect with people willing to do critiques, I suspect it lacks the more casual "get to know you" atmosphere a small crit group can offer. When you only have 5-6 people in a group, people get to know your style from seeing your stuff several weeks in a row, and can point out patterns in your style that a single-time critiquer would miss.
If you aren't getting what you need out of F&F, I suggest you try to round up a few someones to join you in a small critique group.
[This message has been edited by Elan (edited November 30, 2005).]
quote:
I think the "promise of a hook" cheese bit was aimed at me
Not at all! I sincerely apologize if it came across that way.
No, it's just something that I seem to see a lot. And *I* was even slightly guilty of it in my last F&F posting!
Edit:
quote:
Just my 2¢.....
Wouldn't it be great if there were a smilie that did all three of those at once?
[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited November 30, 2005).]
.How do you guys "quote" like that?
[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited December 01, 2005).]
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/ubbcode.html
And, er, what's this about novels? No wonder all my attempts to write a first 13 for my novel have been so painful.
[This message has been edited by franc li (edited December 01, 2005).]
quote:
F&F is for short stories. For novels, see Hatrack groups.
Is this correct? I hadn't heard that. I was under the assumption that it could be a fragment of anything just as long as the length was given so that those giving a crit would know, and those who wanted to contribute feedback could decide if they wanted to reply to novel fragments or short story fragments.
A lot of stories opened without a scene, just setup of setting or situation. It seemed as if the ideas that are hanging about in the 1st 13 are not borne out so much in the actual choices.
Maybe two issues is too few to make such judgements, but I’m curious about the real world choices. Has anybody else seen this?
Did the beginnings you sampled make you believe the author had an interesting story to tell? Did you want to continue reading? Were you convinced that the author had sufficient skill to sustain your interest and the story for the subsequent pages?
From what I've read, editors are more likely to consider stories in their entirety if you have some recognition with them, so the First 13 isn't as important for established writers. I've read that if an editor has read your story in it's entirety, even if they reject it, that they will remember your name and will be more likely to consider future submissions more thoroughly and give the author some latitude as to the opening.
As unfair as it may be, established writers don't have to follow the same rules as writers trying to break in, so they don't have to grab the slush readers and editor's attention as much.
Beth said it really well. Nothing sells a story as well as the story itself. If a writer can get the slush reader at one of these mags, who read thousands of stories, to read all the way through, and at the end think 'WOW', the story will sell, no matter whether you are established or not. The rules for the First 13, while not a hard and fast rule, is a good basic principle to start with for someone without recognition.
First off, there's the problem of peeves. We've all got 'em, and the more beginning writing one reads, the more irritating those peeves get, until we've honed our rants down to a fine point. And then, well, it seems a shame to waste perfectly good rant....
Second, there's the uncertainty factor. We wish, when reading, to offer helpful commentary. We don't want to just say "Good work!" or "This sucks!" But it's not always easy to tell what's wrong with a story, even when you know something is... and so we fall back on the aforementioned peeves, or on nuggets of writing wisdom we've heard. "Not enough action." "Don't start with the weather." "Too many long sentences." When we're looking only at the first thirteen lines of a story, the uncertainty factor gets multiplied, because we all know we can't diagnose a story's problem from thirteen lines. We can say "I would keep reading" or "I wouldn't", but when it comes to reasons we all tend to stick with truisms because we're not, in our hearts, sure.
And finally, there's the middle ground. Every time I skim F&F, I see a few stories that I would never keep reading and a very few that I most certainly would. The rest? Probably, if I had time, or was in that kind of mood, and they didn't hit one of my turn-off switches (I can't stand most vampire stories, for example), and they didn't let me down within a few paragraphs, and the cat didn't suddenly want feeding... these are not turn-offs, but they're not superb hooks either. And there's nothing wrong with that. They fall into TNH's Slushkiller categories seven and up, where only further reading will give me, the reader, any idea whether this is a good or bad story.
It might be nice to attach a really superb hook to these stories, but I can't even begin to say what that hook would be without a better sense of the story. Hooks are not entities unto themselves, but rather a part and parcel of a larger thing. Diagnosing them from thirteen lines, in all but the most extreme cases, is like diagnosing a sick patient by examining his finger.
I'd argue then that the problem with the first thirteen isn't that they're too short, but that they're too short for what's frequently done with them. We can pinpoint extreme problems or applaud excellent efforts, but for the vast, muddling middle, all we can say is "Not bad so far - I'd have to see more to say." We cannot write an entire critique, as I sometimes see done in F&F. For an entire critique, we need the entire story.
[This message has been edited by KatFeete (edited December 21, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by KatFeete (edited December 21, 2005).]
Not that it's a guarantee, but I'm more likely to offer if somebody is asking more specifically.
I'll take you up on it, Elan, when I do the rewrite! Thanks.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited March 18, 2006).]
To "nuance" (Beelzebub, what a useful word ) Card's statement a little, you can mention an argument and just tell us what it signifies rather than showing us the whole thing.
"Mom and Granny were arguing in the front seat, as always, Mom was accusing Grans of some arcane sin and Grans was pleading her innocence. He didn't even know what the putative crime was this time, and he sure didn't care who was right. They always did this. Besides, there was a strange cloud in the east."
There, told everything about the argument that actually matters, but didn't mention a word of it and didn't make you want a word of it.
But once you begin quoting the arguments, then people start trying to figure out who's right and who's wrong. Cut off their access to the speakers and tell them the argument doesn't matter, and they'll wonder what your game is. That's no good. A narrator can be unreliable, but the audience has to believe in the author without hesitation.
It might be interesting to compare the first 13 to the first 30. We, the critiquers, would be looking at the lines in different ways. With the 13, would it entice someone to read further? With the 30, is the story off to a good start?
[This message has been edited by arriki (edited August 07, 2006).]
Back when I hung out more frequently at fictionpress (supress shudder), I frequently came across authors arguing with readers. Authors must learn an important lesson: they are always wrong. The reader is always right.
OSC talked about this (in Characters and Viewpoint I believe). The reader is having an experience, and how can what she experiences be wrong? If she is confused, the writing must be clarified. If she is bored to tears, the writer needs to make it more interesting.
Granted, you can't please everyone, but if more than one reader has a problem with something, you'd better fix it.
[This message has been edited by authorsjourney (edited August 07, 2006).]
All a hook needs to do in those first 13 lines is convince me to read the 14th line. It can do this by being written so beautifully that I just flow through to the next paragraph without even noticing I'd done so...it can do this by giving me a character in pain that I can sympathize with...it can do this by giving me an argument or other conflict I find compelling...it can WOW me with some interestin thing I've never seen before...it can grip me with a tease of what isto come (this works best, IMHO, in first person).
There would be no difference between the first 13 lines and the first 30 lines for me. If you haven't hoooked me in 13, you are unlikely to do so in 30 because, whether they're included in the F&F post or not, I won't read them!
Moreover, in F&F I'm not looking for a hook. I'm looking for a sign that the author has reached a certain level of competence.
quote:
All a hook needs to do in those first 13 lines is convince me to read the 14th line. It can do this by being written so beautifully that I just flow through to the next paragraph without even noticing I'd done so...it can do this by giving me a character in pain that I can sympathize with...
But I'm the consumer. To pull in the editor, maybe the First Thirteen is necessary---certainly I try to come up with something compelling at the beginning.
When is the last time any consumer has ever purchased a single short story?
They don't. They purchase anthologies either as books or magazines. If they bought the book/magazine, the author has already made their money.
Once a consumer buys the anthology, they are going to read every story they can vaguely stomach the first page of. A saavy writer understands that they still want people to read their stories in the hopes they will remember their name and at least purchase other stuff with their name in it. At best, a writer hopes that readers write in, complimenting the author so they have an easier sell with the next story.
Sidenote: There may be places online to purchase short stories, I don't know of any. It sounds like lame PoD/Vanity stuff. But, it may exist.
So you don't have to write spectacularly well to be published. That doesn't mean you shouldn't still strive to be excellent in every way you can. Working hard at great thirteens will help you a lot. Ignoring them will hurt you a lot, and frankly, it's lazy writing.
But otherwise, yeah, you want to interest the reader. I dislike the term "hook" because it implies it's irresistible, that it seizes you by the throat and doesn't let go. No 13 lines have ever convinced me I had to read the rest or be forever unfulfilled.
Why have useless prose? 13 lines is enough to set a scene, introduce a viewpoint and describe some characters. Why bother with the 13 if the next 10 are where stuff gets interesting? Dump the dross and get with the good stuff. You need enough on that first manuscript page to get a reader to turn it. A slush reader has piles of first pages to read, why not make your story capture their jaded interest. Novel or Short Story, the writing should be tight and help bring the story to life. The first 13 is a good place to start.
Grim
quote:
13 or 30 lines, a lot of your writing sins will be layed bare.
Oh, yeah, thirteen lines are more than enough to reveal all of my literary faults and problems, too.
In general, this site is used by writers who are trying to get published/established.
In trying to get published, you need to make a slushpile reader get through your story, pass it to the next level, get THAT reader to finish your story, and pass it along up the chain, however many steps there happen to be. For this, a hook (and I do mean in your general sense, rather than a teaser) is surely vital.
Once you have become an established writer, a recognised name for both editors and readers, you don't need a hook; your name is the hook. This is why a lot of published material does not appear to have a 13-line hook, and that's why every few weeks there's a discussion on this site about it. Someone always says "but so-and-so doesn't have a hook in such-and-such"; so-and-so is invariably a best-selling author. They have a two-word hook - "Steven King" or "John Grisham" or "Robert Jordan".
Okay I'm a suck. But I did recently read an early OSC novel (Treason) which a probably wouldn't have touched except for I knew he was a good writer.
Of course once you win a few awards you have an even better hook.
For the rest of us, though it's the hard way.
The problem is that 13 lines with no glaring mistakes is a lot to ask from a new writer.
That's why I don't demand that you give me a perfect 13 before I'll read. I know that you're workshopping because you want to improve your story. If you think that I can tell you anything helpful, it means that there are techniques, tips, even tricks that I might be able to tell you. I'm perfectly willing to read for fun when I'm pretty sure that there won't be a lot for me to say other than "this is perfect". But I'm not demanding that you be perfect before I'll read when the point is how I can help you be better.
But if your first thirteen reveals that you don't have a basic grasp of written English or the art of narrative, or if it's a story I'm going to hate reading, I'll give it a pass. You don't need the feedback I'd give you on that story, and I don't want to give it to you.
quote:
Maybe I should put the guy in a grocery store, confused, naked, and looking for cheese!
I think this might hit way too close to home for some of us.
quote:
For me, all you need to do in the first thirteen is avoid looking like you don't know what you're doing.
bump
With reference to earlier comment I made, I see it was incomplete: I was referring particularly to clumsy hooks that prove to have little bearing on the rest of the story.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited March 26, 2007).]
quote:
With reference to earlier comment I made, I see it was incomplete: I was referring particularly to clumsy hooks that prove to have little bearing on the rest of the story.
Now that would be a good forum contest. I feel a thread coming on...
Matt
It simply isn't possible to do that in thirteen lines. A character evolves and we come to know them through the course of the story. The other reason, and I'm sorry if I'm a little direct here, is that a number of people offer advice on what editors are looking for. That would be great if in fact the advice was relevant, but it isn't.
When submitting the 13 lines those who volunteer to critique should focus on those thirteen lines: Is there a hook? Does it pique your interest? Does it make you want to read more? Is it clearly written, etc.
I understand the importance for the first thirteen lines to have a spark, but the critiques are, in my opinion not very helpful and the problem lies in the audience.
We as writers owe it to the reader to invite them into the story. We don't smile, shake hands, and introduce ourselves ten minutes after we meet someone, we do it at the beginning. We should be doing the same with our stories.
But they who critique ought to critique the first 13 for what they are and should be. An introduction and invitation to read more; not for what they aren't.
[This message has been edited by jongoff (edited March 27, 2007).]
I think that when you post your first 13 you should also ask for those who are interested in critting the whole thing (or if a novel, the first chapter). Then you are essentially saying, "here's the intro, is this interesting enough to keep reading?" That's how editors work. If the first bit is good, they'll keep reading. If not, then it's trash. Or sent back in your self-addressed stamped envelope. Whatever.
Matt
A critique is one person's point of view. End of story. If you think the person has a valid opinion, then listen to it. If not, ignore it. If several people point out the same issue, then it would do to take note of it.
A critique is a chance to peer into one reader's mind. If they are telling you they aren't hooking into your story, and why, that's useful information.
The problem NEVER lies with the audience. If you think it's the audience at fault, you are lost. An opinion about writing is never wrong... because opinions about writing are not true/false things. I like it; I don't like it... one is not right and the other wrong. Opinions are barometers, not statements of fact. If the opinion is based on a false conclusion, you can only blame the writer for that. It is the writer, after all, who completely controls the words on the page. As a writer, you can assess where a particular reader veered off course and make a decision on whether you need to clarify, edit, expound, develop. And that is the gift in critique, a chance to see where a reader veers off course so that you can make a course correction.
I know exactly what you mean. I eventually read Treason, which is (I think) a rewrite of "A Planet Called Treason." And I read it under the high recommendation of a friend and the fact that it was written by OSC. I did finish it, and can honestly say there is no other book like it.
I wanted to drop it several times and found the situation of our main character distasteful, creepy, and just plain weird. The entire book is amazingly clever and brilliantly creative, however, despite its artistic value, it is nothing short of a severe acid trip and don't think it would be a breakthrough success for any up and coming author.
Your observation about the audience never being wrong ONLY applies to a passive audience. In other words readers who haven't taken upon themselves the responsibility of providing helpful feedback. When a person takes on that role they have a responsiblity to provide feedback that is relevant and useful to what is posted.
Useful feedback on the thirteen lines would include telling the author how effective it is as a hook, whether the writing is clear, etc.
Feedback that is less than helpful are comments about the character being underdeveloped, or there not being enough information about this or that aspect of the world (this is exceptional because if the opening scene begins describing a world, it should obviously have some detail).
The thirteen lines excercise is to help us develop as writers that can hook a reader, and from a professional point, an editor's interest. It is impossible to really develop the characters, the world, or the plot in thirteen lines. We can only provide a snapshot, but that snapshot should be well framed, interesting, and in focus.
So if we take up the mantle of critic we should be aware of the responsibility to provide good observations, and where possible suggestions on how to improve.
Now having said all that it's important to point out that sometimes it is possible to tell a lot in 13 lines. I'm reminded of a story in an anthology of the world's shortest stories. The entire tale was told in remarkably few lines. I don't recall the author's name, but the story, in it's entirity was rather brief. If you'll indulge me I'll present it here:
A Short Story for Mindreaders:
It was a dark and stormy night... you know the rest.
The End.
Thanks to everyone for your indulgence in my prattle.
[This message has been edited by jongoff (edited March 30, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by jongoff (edited March 30, 2007).]
The baby’s blood type? Human, mostly.
- Orson Scott Card
If you'd like to see more check out the website:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.11/sixwords.html
It's a web site of stories six words or less in length.
Enjoy!
quote:
There should probably be a section entitled "How to Accept a Critique."
This topic is intended to help with that.