If you picked up a fantasy book in first person present tense, would you be less inclined to continue reading it than if it was third person past or even first person past? All other factors aside, that is. I've heard people say that reading present tense is tiring, and I can understand that; I used to feel the same way. But I wrote a little bit in it and got used to it, and I'm curious about experimenting with it further.
Posted by mommiller (Member # 3285) on :
I can't seem to remember reading anything in the first person in quite a while. However, if the story was compelling enough I don't see why it would be a problem. Tense is not as big an issue for me if the plot is interesting enough.
Posted by Minister (Member # 2213) on :
All other things being equal (not that they ever are), I'd rather read something else, especially at novel length.
Posted by Thieftess (Member # 1683) on :
Adriana Trigiani's last book, Queen of the Big Time, was written in first person present tense. I could only make it through about four pages before I gave up.
Alice Hoffman's Practical Magic was written in third person present tense, and it didn't bother me as much. (It was also a fabulous book.)
But I do think present tense seems to be limited to the "literary fiction" genre (despite Practical Magic being arguably fantasy...).
If you write in this tense, it's your call of course. But your story better be phenomenal.
~Alethea
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
When 1st Present works, it can be really good. But most of the time it doesn't work and is just intrusive and in the way. You are probably better off avoiding it.
Posted by Jammrock (Member # 3293) on :
I can't stand first person for anything but a murder mystery. It is especially bad in fantasy and SciFi. I would put down any non-mystery book written in first person after the first page or so.
my $0.02.
Posted by Ray (Member # 2415) on :
I've read three books in first person present tense all the way through, and enjoyed two of them. They were The Rainmaker by John Grisham and You Don't Know Me by David Klass. I loved the sarcastic narrators in both stories, and that tone carried all the way through their everyday problems, which in themselves wouldn't have been as interesting without the characters reactions. Maybe I just loved having smartass protagonists that I was willing to forget how the story was told.
The book I didn't like was The Street Lawyer, also by Grisham, and that one bugged me to no end. Of course, by that point, I was already tired with Grisham, so that may have affected my judgment.
I usually don't care how a story's told just so long as it's really compelling. I actually like first person narrations, but I haven't seen it done well in a long time.
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
If you go back and look at the archives, you'll see several rants with my name on them against first person present tense. Yes, I would put it down. I have, in fact, put down even short fiction written in this tense. I'm not partial to first person in general, but good first person PAST TENSE won't bother me. I'm not partial to present tense in general either, but good THIRD PERSON present tense might not bother me if the story is good enough. But if you put them together I am 99% sure I will not read it. If it's a novel, I am 100% sure I won't read it.
It's not a matter of how phenomenal the story is. I won't read far enough to find out.
And that's my brutal honesty for two cents.
Posted by Kherezae (Member # 2855) on :
Alright, thanks for all the input. Guess I'd better avoid (at the very least) the combination of first person and present tense... I still think first person would better fit my story, but I may end up writing third person all the same, especially since the biggest reason I have for using first person is avoiding pronoun confusion. Yeah, I have a lot of same-gender characters.
So, again, thanks.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
I've read some pretty good books written in present tense.
Without exception, every one of them would have been far better written in normal past tense.
I have never read an entire book written in first person present tense. I probably never will.
Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :
In what POV are 'choose your own adventure' stories written?
You see a box in the corner with smoke issuing from the lock. If you open it turn to page 5. If you leave the room and continue down the passage turn to page 138.
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
second person present.
For a good example of 2nd present that actually works, read Stuart O'Nan's Prayer for the Dying.
Posted by Spider (Member # 3349) on :
First person present tense can work. Good FPPT can create a relationship between the reader and the character that's as strong, if not stronger than any other way of storytelling. The reason for this: split second honesty.
Two books that bring this to the table are Fight Club and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.
Posted by Leigh (Member # 2901) on :
I have never read any fantasy novels written in First Person present tense. I have, however read 6 books by Robin Hobb which are First Person reflective tense (is that right?). They were brilliant;y written, so I read them.
As for FPPT, I havent't read a successful piece... ever, to come to think about it. Only ones my friends have forced me to read, which were horrible as they were Tolkien rip-off's written during the height of the LoTR's trilogy's movies height.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
I'm going to be the dissenting voice. If you the author think the story needs to be told in first person present tense, then tell it in first person present tense. Just be aware that it comes at a cost.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
quote:As for FPPT, I havent't read a successful piece... ever, to come to think about it.
Go read David Gerrold's Thirteen O'Clock in February's F&SF. Not only is it in first person present tense, it also uses no caps and almost no punctuation.
Posted by pjp (Member # 3211) on :
I personally have nothing against it, but then again, I don't think I've read anything of length in that format.
Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :
According to OSC, present tense is de rigeur for "literary" fiction.
I've read one novel in it: Hardwired, by Walter Jon Williams. In that case, I liked it.
I've written one story in it, because it was the best way to let an ambiguity about time be ambiguous only when it should.
I do get tired of it sometimes.
Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :
This is probably not something I shoudl say on here, but OSC is wrong.
Present tense has become much more common in "literary" fiction, but it is certainly not "de rigeur".
There are reasons to use present tense, and there are reasons to use first person POVs. I've used both. Indeed, I have used both together. I don't recall a single critique on one of my first-person-present-tense stories that so much as commented on the present tense, and the only POV comments were about the shift between two narrators (which I accept has to be done with enormous care and was one of the main reasons I wanted critiques on the piece in question).
As with any technique, it can be done well, and it can be done badly. I don't know why some people seem to have such a phobia about it - it may well be that they haven't read a good example, but I don't think any technique should be discarded without consideration for instances where it might be appropriate.
Now, what about first person POV future tense? I've got some unfinished stuff written in that... a kind of experiment in hyperfiction, with differently possible outcomes according to reader choices (and no, not like those solo "gamebooks")...
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
if no one commented on it, tcherno, then you were doing it right.
but when people are reading your piece and all they can think is "holy crap, I hate 1st person present" instead of "wow, great story," you're doing something wrong.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
I can think both. Well, okay, I can think both "*&^%$#*( present tense" and "wow, great story" at the same time. Combine first person with present tense...keep it short.
Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
I've only seen First Present work once because it was a stream of consciousness. Actual thoughts that the girl was thinking while things were happening. So it was written while it was happening. And it was said in story that the only way you could be reading it is if they read it straight out of her brain. (That Story is "To The Humans" by Kari Michelle Murray.)
When you write: "I am digging." The thought comes to my head how are you writing while your digging? If you have a good explanation then I'll accept it.
Posted by Leigh (Member # 2901) on :
quote:Go read David Gerrold's Thirteen O'Clock in February's F&SF. Not only is it in first person present tense, it also uses no caps and almost no punctuation.
Is that an American book/magazine? I don't think we get that here in Australia.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
F&SF is the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, one of the major U.S. markets.
Posted by Leigh (Member # 2901) on :
I'd doubt we'd get that here in Oz, but I might go and have a look around the major newsagency or bookstore next time I'm out.
Posted by Kherezae (Member # 2855) on :
XP Good conversation, here. Thanks again, guys.
I think I may give writing FPPT a shot and see if it works out as well as I feel it will, but I'll get some people to read it if I do to see if the method of telling overwhelms the story x_x; If it does, I'll switch to something different. Probably third person, past tense.
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
To be fair to the writers (or wannabe writers) of FPPT, Strange Horizons seems to love it. I constantly see stories there written in that style. I don't read them, though.
Just brining it up as a potential market for some of you who want to write in that way. I would *strongly* advise against writing a novel like this.
Posted by dckafka (Member # 3258) on :
Zelazny wrote quite a bit in first person past. All his Amber books and a lot of his short fiction. However, most of his better novels (IMHO - and apologies to the many fans of his Amber series - Lord of Light, Dorways in the Sand, Jack of Shadows) were third person past.
Posted by Leigh (Member # 2901) on :
Christine, I'll have a go Just got to make sure it's present tense and First person
I've done it before, though I doubt I'd be able to replicate it as I'm now write Third Person. Well I'm going to give it a go.
If anyone wants to critique it, I'll post it on the F&F within a week.
Posted by DeepDreamer (Member # 5337) on :
quote:Go read David Gerrold's Thirteen O'Clock in February's F&SF. Not only is it in first person present tense, it also uses no caps and almost no punctuation.
I read this, and personally didn't like it. It worked as stream-of-consciousness, and I'm put off by that kind of story. Just a personal preference thing, I think. I don't know, it always seems unfinished to me.
That's probably because the only place I use first-person present tense is in freewriting. "I'm hurrying down the deserted path, winter-blackened tree limbs like skeletal arms reaching out to grab whatever comes their way. The sun is setting, the air's frigid, the wind a wall of ice in my face. I pull my cloak closer around me, realizing how futile that gesture is. If the cold doesn't get me soon, then the Hunters will."
Obviously a weak example. But nevertheless, it works for me-- but purely as a method for just getting words on paper.
I can stand third-person present tense for a sense of immediacy. I like first person if there's a strong PoV character. Someone with attitude or a wry sense of humor or just a powerful sense of persona. Yes, this is a childish example, but the best first-person sci-fi I've ever read were the Animorphs books by K. A. Applegate, because there was such a clear sense of character for such short, low-target-age books.
I think most people attempt first-person present to eliminate the assumption that the POV character can't die. In FPPastT, the character is speaking from a distance in time from the events, usually after it's all over, and so they obviously made it through. There's never a question of if they survive. But in FPPresentT, the story could, theoretically, end with the POV character's dying breath.
Which isn't to say that the POV character in FPPastT can't die while in POV. KAA used every trick in the book to make characters die in POV (with varying degrees of success.)Well, every trick except the cliche view-from-the-afterlife. I think she did what she did just to say it can be done. Just nobody else try it, 'cuz it's been done now to death. A couple reasons why she was able to pull it off:
1)The establishment of multiple POV's. Which is easiest when the POV's are clearly distinguishable one from another. Where one POV leaves off, another can pick up the thread of the story.
2)Use of the immediate-past. Instead of a POV character reflecting on events from some distance in the future, we're reading these events more-or-less as they happen. No "only later would I realize" or "of course I didn't see then that X wasn't gonna work and we'd have to try Z". No flashbacks, just straight-forward storytelling for the most part. It's not Pulitzer-Prize winning prose, (what book written at a fifth-grade level was?) Just good storytelling.
So IMHO, if you're going to do First Person, and want something accessible yet not reflecting-from-some-point-in-the-future, try a more immediate approach.
Alright, enough of my rambling. I just want to make one final point: It's okay to experiment if you first know how to follow the rules you intend to be breaking.
[This message has been edited by DeepDreamer (edited April 13, 2006).]
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
Somehow I missed that story---of late the last several years I tend to skim through the magazines at best---but I can say that, in general, stories written without the normal conventions (paragraphs, sentences, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and so on) tend to give me headaches. It's not that these stories aren't occasionally rewarding, it's just an extra effort I have to extend. And I never thought it fair to make the readers extend themselves in that way.
Don't let that kind of picky objection stop anybody, though. Writing rules are certainly made to be broken, if it can be done well enough...
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
DeepDreamer: I can respect your opinion. At least you read it.
Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :
I just finished a book (Pagan's Scribe by somebody-Jinx--a pick-up-off-the-shelf-because-the-cover-looks-interesting book) that was written in FFPT.
I quite enjoyed it.
I kept trying NOT to because there are so many compelling arguments (especially presented here) against its use. I kept trying to let the FFPT get in the way of my liking the story. I kept trying to let it distract me. But to no avail.
Still, I think FFPT has to be done VERY well in order for it to be workable at ANY length, but especially novel length. Since I don't have the compunction or the skill to do so, I'll avoid writing it myself. However, after my encounter with this book I won't let it prevent me from seeking out those rare gems in which it's done beautifully.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
quote:Since I don't have the compunction or the skill to do so, I'll avoid writing it myself.
That's a good way to ensure you'll never be able to do it. If the story demands it, give it a try. It's good exercise.
Posted by autumnmuse (Member # 2136) on :
I'm guilting of writing FPPT, but in flash form. As in, less than a thousand words. And for the particular situation, it was the perfect choice. I've gotten a lot of comments on the story, but not one said they didn't like the tense.
However, having said that, I wouldn't wade through a book length of it unless I found something EXTROARDINARILY wonderful about the plot and characters. Not very likely, and I wouldn't give a book very many pages to prove me wrong.
Short stories are different animals to me than novels. I'm much more understanding of experimental voice in shorts, because I know I won't be immersed in them for too long.
Though in general, I'm actually a big fan of 1st person past tense in the right situation. I just read an excellent fantasy novel by Juliet Marillier that used the tense very well, and plan to write my second novel in a similar tone.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
I would agree that a novel is too much for unconventional style for most writers and most readers. Short story length, up to 7500 words is about the limit of my patience with FPPT. That despite the fact that one of my best short stories is in FPPT. I just couldn't get it to work for me in any other voice.
Posted by pooka (Member # 1738) on :
The other day I ran across another novel to add to my list of first person narrators: The Secret History by Donna Tartt. Granted, none of my list is present tense. And here I thought I had decided to rewrite my novel in 3rd person.
Posted by Annabel Lee (Member # 2635) on :
I don't mind FPPT at all. Actually sometimes I much prefer it. Some stories just seen to call out for it. Plus, I like variety. I don't mind the idea that someone can't actually be writing while they're describing themselves doing something else with their hands. To me it doesn't seem like more of a device or a leap of imagination than a third person past tense narration which allows access to more than one character's innermost thoughts.
Those that get it really right make it so that I don't even notice what tense it's written in until I've read a few pages. As long as it doesn't come across as mannered and affected, I'll probably be okay with FPPT.
Posted by trousercuit (Member # 3235) on :
Has anyone done second-person future?
EDIT: And gotten away with it?
[This message has been edited by trousercuit (edited May 18, 2006).]
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
You will.
Posted by trousercuit (Member # 3235) on :
You will have made a hilarious joke.
Posted by trousercuit (Member # 3235) on :
I just realized that ransom notes are generally second-person future tense.
I'm not sure I'd read a 300-page ransom note. It'd probably be too demanding.
I feel another Ask Mr. Writing Person coming on...
[This message has been edited by trousercuit (edited May 19, 2006).]
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
Tonight, you'll write another installment of Mr. Writing Person. You'll sit down at the computer.
Nothing will come to you.
Nothing.
"You ignorant Philistine!" you'll say to yourself. You'll stand up, walk around, fling a copy of "The Da Vinci Code" at the wall, consider taking up smoking. You'll scrub the grout in the shower with a toothbrush, you'll call your mother, you'll start alphabetizing your spice rack, anything to avoid that empty page, that vast expanse of white.
And then. Finally, all other options exhausted, you'll do what you always do. You'll troll Hatrack looking for topics. Someone will come through for you; they always do.
They always will.
Posted by trousercuit (Member # 3235) on :
Bahahahaha!
Actually, I'm really looking at zeroth-person present tense, though I don't know whether that would be a character's body part (like a finger), an article of clothing, or, like, a brain cell.
Buzz. Bzz...bzzz. Buzzzzz.
Maybe I'll try them all.
[This message has been edited by trousercuit (edited May 19, 2006).]
Posted by pooka (Member # 1738) on :
Also A Farewell to Arms and How Green was my valley. If you don't count any Orson Scott Card books (and I haven't read Lost Boys but isn't that another?) The majority of books I've ever read were in the first person. Not first person present, of course.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Cherryh is famous for her no-grammatical-person-attached stream of consciousness passages. Sentance fragments. Sensory impressions laden with implications unspool in tangled metaphors. Immersion is the boundry between thought and feeling. Obviously I can't do that kind of thing myself, but she's virtually patented the whole non-tense non-person style. Some people hate it. Others really like it.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
That must be why I find Cherryh obtuse. I can't get past page 25. Too many other books to read that I will enjoy more.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Her writing really can be difficult to read at times, and I wouldn't try it myself (except for purposes of illustration, which I didn't do very well either). It has merit, and I don't hate it when it's well done. But she has a corner on the market because it's really difficult for most people to write anything remotely coherent that way and it's difficult for most people to read even if it is coherent.
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
I never "took" to Cherryh---I've read a dozen or so of her novels but can't remember much about any of them. Your comments helped me put my finger on it---most of them seemed rather densely written, as I recall...
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
It's funny, but I would have thought that anyone who'd ever read her stuff would immediately finger her on reading the phrase "zeroth-person present tense".
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
Probably missed it...I was denser in those days, too.
Posted by pooka (Member # 1738) on :
That description of Cherryh reminds me of trying to read Faulkner in high school.
Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :
Yeah, I hated Faulkner's high school writing, too. He improved after graduation.
Posted by Gecko (Member # 2709) on :
A couple reasons why she was able to pull it off: