So, I have this novel. And I have this scene in this novel that is 1.) a cliche--reluctant Prince arguing with father about an arranged marriage, then meeting his bride-to-be and relenting, 2.) short, 2K, and 3.) lightly humorous. I love this scene, but for all the wrong reasons.
I want to include the scene because:
1.) I wrote it (*sigh*) 2.) It provides some much needed humor in an otherwise philosophical book 3.) It provides insights into character traits and character interaction, which saves the reader from having to undergo introductions later on 4.) It sets up the next scene, which is something of a twist 5.) Manages to inform the reader about setting and basic societal rules in my world
I know you can't really judge, not without seeing it, but I want to ask for general impressions. Are any of these reasons good ENOUGH reasons to spend half a chapter on a cliche subplot which will have little bearing on the rest of the plot? I mean, all the plot needs is for these two characters to be newlyweds. The character development could be achieved with comparable results through other action, though the humor would be lost.
Would realizing, as a reader, that the scene doesn't really bear on the plot be a deal breaker for you? If you are entertained enough, while reading it, would you forgive?
Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
It sounds like you know the answer to this. Here's the wonderful thing--you can cut the scene and add it back later if you miss it. It's dead simple.
I'll bet almost anything that once it is no longer taking up space that you'll be able to come up with another scene that fulfills all the criteria without being cliche.
Then, arguing on the other side; some cliches arise for a reason and irritation at an arranged marriage might be one of those.
Posted by mommiller (Member # 3285) on :
You hit the nail on the head with me.
Yes, if it was entertaining enough, and set up the next scene properly, of course I would read it, read it and enjoy it.
It is my belief that cliched scenes are labled as such because so many of them are written poorly. No matter, no mind, about the good ones. But that is just my opinion.
Edited to add, good luck with the novel, and do we get to see it sometime soon?
[This message has been edited by mommiller (edited July 06, 2006).]
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
I don't have problems with cliche elements to a story or cliche scene in a story if the following are true:
1. It is well written *****
2. The overall story is fresh (in which case the cliche can add a touch of familiarity that helps draw me in).
3. It helps the story in some way.
I tink many cliches are cliche because they make so much sense. They are natural. If well written, they also float by me unnoticed and unflagged. This won't be true for every reader but then again, you can 't pleas everyone.
Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :
If you decide to cut the scene, well, you don't really need any particular scene to keep the plot going. Summarize it in a couple of sentences, and move on. But if it's fun, keep it! 2 cents.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 3384) on :
There's more than one way to skin a cat. If you love the scene, but don't love the cliche, just rewrite the basic elements into another scene. Turn things around, the prince is happy to fulfill his obligation to the kingdom, and the king is speaking fondly of his own arranged marriage and how well it turned out.
Posted by Mig (Member # 3318) on :
Stephen King's book "on Writing" is filled with so much great wisdom on the subject and I refer to it way too often in posts here. And I will again. But I can't help myself. He advises to "murder your darlings." No matter how much you love a particular line or scene, kill it if it doesn't work or if it doesn't serve the story.
Its hard to judge your situation without reading the whole. But if you can't bring yourself to kill the scene right now, wait til you've finished the work and let your test readers have a say. It could be that they'll like the scene as much as you or will wonder why you bothered with it.
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
MightyCow: I'd love to see a scene in which a prince/princess understands and is willing to fulfill his/her obligations.
Posted by Novice (Member # 3379) on :
Hm. Mighty Cow's comment, with Christine's reply, makes me add one more thing here that I didn't think to say earlier:
The scene is written from the Queen's POV, she's tired of hearing the rants and remembers her own arranged marriage as being frightening, but so advantageous that she quickly got over her fear. Is that enough to break the cliche?
(P.S. Eat More Chicken)
Posted by mommiller (Member # 3285) on :
I think so.
Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :
I know this is kind of off topic , but prompted by Christines point. I love cliche's when you mess around with what people are expecting the cliché to be.
Like have the prince or princess so absolutely convinced that the arranged marriage is romantic and right and cool and everything they could have ever hoped for. Or have them react in the exact opposite way in every respect to how a twenty-first century western reader would expect themselves to react in the situation, but have the arrangement make sense. If you do it (however cursory) as a preliminary exercise into getting into the mindset the prince is expected to have by those around him and what he also expects of himself then you will better protray the anguish his aversion will cause him should he feel it.
Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
This reminds me of Apu's wedding on The Simpsons. (He does all he can to avoid it then he meets her and then is okay with it. Then of course Homer runs in dressed as Vishnu, sorry I'm off the point.)
I'd say reasons 2-5 are good enough, but if you think you can do better go for it.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Ganesh!
Sheesh.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 2240) on :
Arranged marraiges are still more commonplace than love matches in this part of the world, and there are hundreds and hundreds of Bollywood, Tamil, and other movies depicting arranged marriages and the bride and groom falling in love. Perhaps it would help to see a few where they do fall in love. Oh, and it seems to be a common belief among those who are, shall we say romantic, that the best marriages are arranged where the bride and groom fall in love after the wedding.
And as a side note, my brother in law was married last April - arranged marriage - and they seem to be doing quite well in the falling-in-love inside an arranged marriage department. But then, dh's parents love each other very much, too, and theirs was arranged, and so on and so forth through the histories of arranged marriages... Yep, I know a LOT of people here who've had arranged marriages and the spousal units fell in love, some before the wedding, others after.
If I can help further, let me know.
Posted by Neoindra (Member # 3422) on :
My husband has a niece who is our age (large families and all that) whose parents wanted to arrange her marriage but she was adamantly against it. Anyway she met the guy and you guessed it they are happily married now. The difference in arranged marriages today and the story book type is that the couple does have a choice in the matter. It’s almost like the parents are setting up their children on blind dates from what I’ve been told. Although, in my husbands nuclear family there haven't been any arraigned marriages, which, as it turns out, is very good for me .
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Of course, this is more of a political wedding, so it isn't just like setting up a blind date.
Posted by Neoindra (Member # 3422) on :
True. I did say that there was a difference. My main point was that arraigned marriages do still happen and whatever the circumstance the people almost always object to it at first and then it works out. So cliché or not it happens.
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