Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Dealing with real world people and events in Fiction

This is topic Dealing with real world people and events in Fiction in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by WolfofWar (Member # 3156) on :

I'm trying to draft a conspiracy thriller novel. My main goal is to use some current events and REAL conspiracy theories that are out there, and weave them together into a conspiracy mystery thriller which will, hopefully, cause alittle controversy, and also be entertaining.

The conspiracies involved are only from an even that happened a few years ago. I have some big names involved in the script passively (meaning theyre not actually in the story itself, but being mentioned as being involved.) And I wanted to know what type of legal issues I could have with it.

Is it slander, even in a fictional story?

Posted by MarkJCherry (Member # 3510) on :

I'm no expert on this matter, but I don't believe this is slander. In my own story I make allusions to certain people. As long as it's presented as fiction(and a conspiracy theory) I don't think theres anything wrong with it.

Don't take my word for it though. Your best friend is Google. Best to see if there were any lawsuits of this variety and check some laws regarding slander and liable.

Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :

If it's clearly a fictional story, and the "big names" are all public figures, then you will not lose if someone sues you for libel. (BTW, in a legal context, "slander" is spoken and "libel" is written.)

That doesn't mean someone won't sue you, but it's very unlikely.

Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :

And if someone does sue, your publisher will probably love it, because it will be free publicity.

Posted by WolfofWar (Member # 3156) on :

Hmm. Okay. Yeah it is all public figures and people.

The story is essentially revolving around the 9/11 conspiracies that are floating about, and I sortof link it all together with groups like PNAC and basically talk about the fanatical nature of some think tanks today, who are willing to do anything to achieve theyre goals, while also warning about the dangers of giving up freedoms and liberties for the sake of security, and how it can ultimately turn against you.

But because I'll be naming a few big names: PNAC, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfiwitz, etc, I was a bit worried whether or not it would be considered libel that I'm accusing them, even in a fictional story based on real conspiracies, of being involved with the plot of 9/11, before and after.

Posted by MarkJCherry (Member # 3510) on :

Hmm, this could be interesting. I'd love to talk to you about some ideas...right now the first part of my own story revolves around Bush, the War on Terror, and conspiracy theories that lead into the dystopic America of the second part of the story. Our stories, I'm sure, are completely different(you're going for a conspiracy thriller, and I don't even know what I'd classify mine as other than an Apocalypse)

[edited in this next part]
I'd love a chance to talk to you about this, and the conspiracy theories. I want to weave in anything "existing" that could make this ring with more truth.

Mark

[This message has been edited by MarkJCherry (edited October 12, 2006).]

Posted by WolfofWar (Member # 3156) on :

Yeah my story at the moment is aptly labeled just "Patriot Act."

I'm not going for a dystopian view of the future, but more of a realistic view of where we are today, and what powers they do have now.

And if you'd like to talk, feel free to email or AIM me at shadowofjedis@aol.com (Shadowofjedis for my AIM.)

Always like some collaborative dicussion.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

(Spoiler for South Park)

The last South Park showed GWB (with lines) and Condi Rice (w/o lines, IIRC) and "revealed" that the US government was secretly behind all the conspiracy theories that said the US government was secretly behind 9/11, because, GWB said, a quarter of the population is retarded and needs to believe the US government can do anything.

Posted by MarkJCherry (Member # 3510) on :

I added you to my list. My own is MarkCherrySBS.

At any rate, I'm still looking for some influence for my own story, which I intend to name simply "Four" so I'd love something that I could mesh into the plot for more realism.

Beyond that, I'd love to hear about what you're planning...I love conspiracy stories.

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

Be careful.

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE: Defamation (most states have done away with the common law distinctions between libel and slander) occurs when you knowingly state a fact that is not true about a person. Defamation, per se, in certain states occurs when that false stament relates to certain areas or topics. You can defame public figures although the standard of proof is higher.

Since events are recent, you might want to spend a few hundred dollars and consult with an Entertainment Lawyer about what you can and can't do. The money spent now will save you a lot of time and money later. After all how horrible would it be to have a great story and no publisher willing to touch it because of legal concerns. OR WORSE, it is published and now you are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting a law suit that seeks millions of dollars in damages.

Posted by CoriSCapnSkip (Member # 3228) on :

Are you, the author, accusing real people, or is a fictional character in your story just proposing theories? Could make a difference.

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

Be careful. Be careful. Be careful.

I always cringe when I see legal questions in discussion groups on the web. Especially where you don't know if the person responding has the necessary background to opine. I can not stress enough the importance of consulting counsel if you even think there is a risk, and sometimes if you don't.

I've seen too many matters that could have been avoided if the client sought my or any other attorney's advice before doing something but didn't because they didn't want to spend the money. Based on experience the amount you'd spend for attorney fees before something bad happens is negligible if you have to hire an attorney AFTER something bad happens.

quote:
If it's clearly a fictional story, and the "big names" are all public figures, then you will not lose if someone sues you for libel.

If someone sues you, whether or not you end up being liable for the damages he/she want, you have already lost. Also, nothing is guaranteed once you walk into the courtroom. I've won cases I should have lost and lost cases I should have won.

So, I will continue chanting my mantra in the background. . .

Be careful. Ask Counsel. Be careful. Ask Counsel. Be careful. Ask Counsel.Be careful. Ask Counsel. Be careful. Ask Counsel.Be careful. . .

edit (breaking mantra to curse and fix typo. Okay mantra's back on track)

[This message has been edited by kings_falcon (edited October 12, 2006).]

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Thank you, kings_falcon. I second your advice.

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

You are welcome, Kathleen aka SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED.

Did I mention that my hourly billable rate triples when you wait until after the world has fallen apart to ask my advice???

Think of it this way, the issue is trick enough (especially since international laws also come into play) that even though I am an attorney and have sued people for and won defamation claims, I'm not willing to give advice on a bulletin board (my malpractice carrier would shoot me and THEN cancel my coverage!!!).

Back to mantra chanting:

Be careful. Ask Counsel. Be careful. Ask Counsel. Be careful. Ask Counsel.Be careful. Ask Counsel. Be careful. Ask Counsel.Be careful. . .

Posted by Inkwell (Member # 1944) on :

I think a little creative allusion would go a long way toward keeping yer arse covered.

No...make that a lot of creative allusion.

Inkwell
-----------------
"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

It depends on who you slander.

GWB isn't going to do squat about a book accusing him of personally engineering 9/11 as a way to make himself Emperor or whatever. You could even publish it as "non-fiction" and he wouldn't do anything about it. So you're perfectly safe.

Is it legal?

Technically, it might not be. In my own reading of the law, what you describe is very iffy. But it is pretty safe. A lot of people have already written such books (and plays, and movies, and so on) and none of them has gotten sued, or ruined, or harrassed.

Now if you were writing this about Clinton...

Posted by MarkJCherry (Member # 3510) on :

I'm gonna jump on the "seek legal advice" bandwagon.

After out talk, it doesn't sound like you're going after anyone, but mentioning names can be just as bothersome. Better to cough up however much it costs(it can't, honestly, be that much for a half hour of a lawyer's time for preventative advice...?) than to act on assumption and make an ass out of us both.

ur gramer masder and frend
Mark

Posted by trousercuit (Member # 3235) on :

Naw, screw the lawyers and go for the throat. If you play your politics right, you'll get the ACLU backing you up in the lawsuits and make a killing in sales and promotions.

Heed my advice! Women and fame and glory and millions in advertising revenue can be yours!

Posted by kings_falcon (Member # 3261) on :

shakes her head in the general direction of trousercircuit.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I'm sure tc didn't mean that literally. Or at all, come to think of it, since he immediately suggested playing for ACLU backing.

I'll stick with my original reasoning with some clarification. By "very iffy" I meant "probably criminal" and almost certainly cause for civil action. By "perfectly safe" I mean that GWB and the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy aren't going to do much about it (if your book recieves an inordinate amount of attention, somebody from PNAC might deign to make fun of your story).

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

When I read "Gone With the Wind," I remember noting that a number of historical characters are mentioned, and a certain interaction with the familiar fictional characters was said to have gone on...but none of the real characters had any lines of dialog. (Of course, they were all long dead...)

Of more recent vintage, the makers of the movie "Contact" took film of then-President Clinton, worked on it to put the fictional characters into the film, dubbed in dialog, and attributed statements to him that he certainly never made, about events that never happened.

I suppose you could get away with a certain amount of use of real people in fictional present-day works---I doubt if you could get away with making out someone, say, a murderer or a conspirator to murder.

*****

On the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy: they probably won't sue, but, just in the last couple of months, people from the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy was threatening legal action over a "9 / 11" television docudrama---something I find an exceptionally poor way to present facts in, incidentally.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I'm guessing that the people making Contact got legal permission to use the footage in that manner before they put the movie in theaters, so it doesn't really speak to the central issue. Of course it's legal if you get permission. It may still be unethical, but that's a different question. Sadly, while GWB et al are unlikely to take legal action against you after the fact, they are equally unlikely to give you permission before the fact. So if the legality of this proposition is a problem for you, then just drop the idea.