Hatrack River Writers Workshop: On Education

This is topic On Education in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by cvgurau (Member # 1345) on :

How vital do you find education beyond high school to be in writing? Has it helped your own? If you have none, do you think it would help? Why?

Posted by MarkJCherry (Member # 3510) on :

Hmmm..an interesting question..

When you say "education beyond high school" do you mean self-education or college education? I like to think myself rather intelligent, with a wide range of useless information, and some useful skills. I never went to college, however, after getting my GED.

I don't feel that this hinders my ability to write, after all I wouldn't be here if it did. If anything, it helps not having a college education; I can approach situations at a fresh angle, perhaps one pros had never even noticed before, giving it a little extra originality. Instead of the classic hiker building a fire by rubbing sticks together(who knew that would work!?) you might try placing some steel wool on kindling and touching a battery to it. Both achieve the same ends, but one is quite a different angle that most people(even most boy scouts) don't realize. Mayhaps a bad analogy...

At any rate, I think if I had gone to college, I would be smart enough not to waste my time writing :P

j/k

In the end, it doesn't really matter. I just do a lot more research than some.

Mark

Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :

It's kind of like asking whether getting married and having kids helps with writing. You get more exposure to more stuff. But you also have less time for actual writing, I guess. If I didn't have a family, though, I'd probably replace that with being an obsessive cat-fancier.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

The only writing class I took in college was Technical Writing and it did not help me, nor, do I believe, would any writing class.

By the time you leave high school you should know the ins and outs of grammar and correct language usage. At least, you should know them well enough to put them into practice (I can't say I know the name of every obscure grammar rule). Once you have that down, the rest is really style and creativity. And that's all about practice practice practice!

It has helped me to read a few "how to" books on the art of fiction. Boot camp helped me a LOT. I took a few online classes but only for motivation. They weren't even graded.

But I would say to a high school student who wants to be a writer that there is no need to major or minor in English or any of its variants. First, unless you want to teach that won't pay the bills. (And it's pretty naive to think you'll succeed at writing automatically.) Second, majoring in something aside from English gives you something to write ABOUT. That's the best thing you can get from college, IMHO.

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

quote:
But I would say to a high school student who wants to be a writer that there is no need to major or minor in English or any of its variants. First, unless you want to teach that won't pay the bills. (And it's pretty naive to think you'll succeed at writing automatically.) Second, majoring in something aside from English gives you something to write ABOUT. That's the best thing you can get from college, IMHO.

I second all of that.

One of my minors was literature, only because I enjoyed it. My major was history. I wrote a LOT, and I did improve. However, what I ended up was a degree in exposition and summary. Translating that to fiction writing is, to say the least, deadly. My graduate degree isn't much better. Now I'm writing grant proposals, articles and HUGE research papers, so it's more exposition and summary and passive voice. Ah well.

Still, I think any education that requires writing is helpful, if only to get people used to using proper punctuation, capitalization, grammar and spelling. Fiction is not instant messaging.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

My college education has been somewhat useful to me in writing, I think, but not necessary. I majored in English, and I think the exposure I got to a lot of different literature was helpful. I would not have been exposed to that literature otherwise, probably. Some of my favorite writers are writers I came across in college classes, and I don't think I ever would have found them otherwise. Those authors have taught me a lot about writing.

What my college education has taught me directly about writing, though, is negligible. Rather, I should say my education taught me a lot about writing, but very little about writing fiction. I learned a lot about writing ABOUT fiction though, and some of the things I learned bled over into helping me write better generally. I picked up a couple good tips along the way, but not much more than that. Mostly, the exposure was useful and little else.

I will say, the one fiction writing class I took was fun, but I learned nothing from it.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Bachelors degree in math education, masters in mechanical engineering. My technical background has been helpful because I use computers (sometimes I wish I'd gone for a degree in electrical engineering, specializing in computer hardware, but only sometimes).

Everything should be "grist for the mill" for writers.

I know a couple who write fiction for a living (there are many people who write for a living, but not all that many who can live off of their fiction writing), and they recommend that the best field to go into if you want to succeed as a writer is business.

They assert that most of the writers who are good enough to live off of their writing but who fail to do so fail because they don't know anything about the business of writing.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

In fairness to all, I don't think any of the semi-traditional education I had (elementary school, private high school, community college) is of any use or value in my current job. Trained chimps could do what I do, and probably would be doing it if the contract permitted it.

In my writing, my education is of some use. But my education-of-myself [read: lengthy and voracious reading of practically everything I could lay my hands on] has been of more use. And of more personal value to me than what I learned in school.

(I might someday go back and work more on my education in a traditional way, given time and circumstances. Now that I'm older, I think I might be more focused.)

Posted by MarkJCherry (Member # 3510) on :

Well, maybe it will help when I take some business courses when I get to college. I'll be majoring in programming though. Love my computers.

But I'm going to have to agree with what all has been said. An education in writing gurantees nothing but an understanding of words. In my experience, authors like this tend to be slow and tedius reads(J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, Anne Rice, Stephen King) much better to write something just because you want to (Walter M. Miller, J.K. Rowling). Like the difference between Linkin Park and Green Day(for us youngins - Linkin Park is a band formed of people who met at a music arts college, Green Day was 3 guys in Cali who wanted to make some noise - both are good, but I can relate better to Green Day's music than Linkin Park's)

I know I have no background in english other than a love of stories. That's why history was my favorite subject in school, I love good stories and I could read my history book almost like a novel if I cut through some of the garbage.

And that's why I'm here, too! I learn so much every day from reading other peoples mistakes and helping them fix it, and from having people help me with my mistakes. It also lends itself to a unique and excellent community. I love being on here.

Anyway, at this point, I'm rambling as I so often do, so
That's me,
Mark

Posted by goatboy (Member # 2062) on :

I think education is an important thing. But, there are different kinds of education, and the one that helps you most with writing fiction seems to be the one you give yourself.

Posted by J (Member # 2197) on :

B.S. in chemistry, law degree.

I'm with Katherine--every step of education is "grist for the mill." Aside from the fact that greater experience = better writing, and more education = greater experience, most classes provide at least some opportunity to learn about writing. Law school for me was a three-year writing boot camp, and even my chemistry degree provided valuable instruction (by negative example) in writing.

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

BS in Electrical Engineering. I've always been uptight about language, and I've always enjoyed reading both highbrow literature and good pulp -- and I think enjoying reading and being willing to focus on writing has been more important than the formal schooling.

That said, you still need to do your homework. The homework that has helped me most has been self-imposed. Strunk and White's _Elements of Style_, Lanham's _Revising Prose_, and Browne and King's _Self-Editing for Fiction Writers_ are probably the most important books to read and re-read for technique and style. All the other stuff... well, I'm still figuring that out. A few kind-but-biting critiques from Hatrack (djvdakota and wbriggs especially) really helped me out, too.

I work in marketing (my technical colleagues say that I've gone over to the dark side), which has really helped me learn to cut -- but that's not something I got formally. If you want to learn to cut, try to put everything that's most important about your product into 50 characters or less for a trade show sign.

[This message has been edited by oliverhouse (edited October 19, 2006).]

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

I will echo what oliver says about cutting. Writing professional articles is a challenge because you really need to put all your ideas in the shortest amount of space possible. So do college papers with a strict length limit, though few professors set a hard maximum.

I must say, though, that just because a college education doesn't contribute directly to a lot of writing skills doesn't mean you shouldn't go to college. Even if you want to be a writer. College teaches you so many intangible things - about life, about responsibility, about growing up. Oh, and there's that whole 'having a degree' thing - kinda helps on job applications when your writing doesn't sustain your lifestyle.

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

It occurs to me that I didn't really answer the question, and that sojoyful really has the same answer I do:

quote:
How vital do you find education beyond high school to be in writing? Has it helped your own?

It has been incredibly important, because it has helped me get and keep a day job -- and one that will pay well enough to help me support my family without working one or two other jobs, which would take up all the time that I currently use for writing. And it has helped my writing by making it something that I do for relaxation and because I want to rather than because I'm desperate to eat.

[This message has been edited by oliverhouse (edited October 19, 2006).]

Posted by AeroB1033 (Member # 1956) on :

I'll just echo others and say that everything you learn is useful in writing.

The flip side is that this doesn't just apply to formal education. Who's to say that writer Jack's experiences living in the slums of New York aren't more valuable to his writing than Marcy's physics courses at Harvard are to hers?

In other words, I wouldn't sweat it if you don't have a college education. You have your own set of experiences that may be just as important as the ones you'd get there. On the other hand, don't hesitate to keep your idea net ready while you're taking that History of Medieval Europe class in college; great ideas and experiences can come from wherever you walk in life, whether that's the halls of an Ivy League university or the supermarket where you bag groceries part-time.

[This message has been edited by AeroB1033 (edited October 19, 2006).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I've been greatly (maybe overly) concerned about another facet of education: that a lot of the rich and the powerful seem to be so because they "went to the right schools." Not that they necessarily learned more than I did---just that they made the connections by going to said schools.

A distant relative of mine---I'm not exactly certain how to describe the connection, and I'm not even sure I've even met the guy (the story came to me through family gossip)---worked as a lower-level editor for certain newsmagazines. I'm told he reached a point with at least one of them, where he wouldn't rise any further in the ranks, because he didn't go to any of those "right schools."

I've wondered if failing to make the right connections plays into SF writing, too. Maybe I'd've had more writing success if I'd gone to conventions...involved myself more in fandom...talked my way into one of the college writing workshops. I don't know if I'd've done better...but not being sure eats away at me.

Posted by J (Member # 2197) on :

I can verify that having gone to the "right schools" is tremendously important if you are trying to get in the door or advance in a premier firm or corporation.

It's not neccesary to have gone to such schools to arrive at success, but it sure lets you take a much easier road to get there.

Example: A couple friends of mine from undergrad became lawyers, but while I went to a school whose name everyone would recognize, they went to more regional schools. They got grades similar to mine both in undergrad and law school, they are both excellent lawyers, and I'd consider it an even match were I to face either in court. But so far in our careers, they find themselves relegated to smaller markets / firms while I have considerably more extensive options. The only significant difference between my resume and theirs is the name of the school that precedes the letters "J.D." It ain't fair, but it's life.

[This message has been edited by J (edited October 19, 2006).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Is "success" that important?

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

There was a commentary around somewhere in the last couple of days about The Death of the Sitcom (again)...one point it brought up (also again) was the prevalence of college graduates from these same schools, writing stuff that didn't reflect any knowledge of the Real World Out There, that also failed to appeal to anybody in the same Real World Out There.

You gotta wonder about any system that got them those writing jobs...

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

quote:
Is "success" that important?

In some ways, not at all. In other ways, very.

I've enjoyed writing well enough...but, all things considered, I'd still rather have sold some stuff...

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

To pick a thread back up from earlier in the conversation (the one about cutting), one of the most educational assignments I ever had to do as far as writing was a paper for a class on "Frankenstein." Actually it was a series of assignments. The Professor would assign HUGE topics (analyze Passage X in in terms of writing devices used by the author, and describe how the scene illustrates a greater theme of the novel). If you've read Frankenstein, you know you could probably write pages and pages about pretty much any scene in the novel. He would assign these huge topics, and then give a strict one page limit. He would still expect us to cover the topic sufficiently, though. Those were some of the hardest and most educational papers I ever wrote, even though they were only one page. I had to cut and chop like crazy to try to get the necessary info in. Definitely a good lesson in cutting out the fat and just delivering the goods. That's one important thing college taught me about writing. I knew I SHOULD cut the crap, but that Professor helped me learn HOW to cut the crap.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I can't recall anything like that from any point in my schooling. I had to learn how to "cut the crap" on my own. Maybe I learned to cut out the wrong "crap."

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Well, that professor (the Professor) was an exception. wetwilly only had one teacher like that, it isn't surprising if you didn't meet one. Most educators assign work designed to encourage their students to generate as much crap as possible.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

Agreed, Survivor. That Professor was the exception. (Andy Scahill at Ohio State University. I think he at least deserves to have his name mentioned.)

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

My 2 classes from OSC were very helpful!

My other writing classes, not at all.

My other classes, sure, to the degree that the more I know the easier it is to come up with stuff. With this very important exception: my other classes helped me keep from starving to death, which would have interfered with my writing career.

[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited October 21, 2006).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

One thing I thought at the time, but wonder about now: I thought all my classes involving literature or writing were worse than useless. A complete waste of time.

Maybe if I'd'a kept a more-open mind, I'd'a done better.

But I also remember my reactions at the time: they ranged from boredom to outright anger at being subjected to it.

One high school teacher sniffed with disdain at science fiction and fantasy in the first class...our relationship went downhill from there...as did my grades...

I also took a high school class [different teacher] covering stuff purportedly science fiction---only one book was science fiction ("Childhood's End"), with the rest being the usual literary suspects (Orwell, Huxley, Golding, one other I don't remember.) I did okay...but I think to this day I could have gone to my own collection and picked out a better selection for study...

A college composition teacher used to mark use of "there is" or "there are" as mistakes. I've occasionally used that for cutting purposes---but I see no reason why I shouldn't use them when I choose to.

So I don't regret those classes or my attitude. I eventually sorted through a healthy portion of "good literature," on my own. I even found some great stuff in the textbooks themselves. But, in the end, what I learned, I learned outside them.

Posted by Tanglier (Member # 1313) on :

I studied philosophy in undergraduate and grad school. And it's possible that philosophy did not help my writing mechanics, but undoubtably, the study has deepened the quality of my thought and has allowed me to write better on more important issues.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I did draw some benefit from some college courses in logic and philosophy---the last courses I took, come to think of it---and they aided me enormously (I thought) in organizing my thoughts and putting them down. I was going to take the same teacher's ethics course, but I passed and filled my requirements for graduation. I was going to go further in my education...but that's another painful story for another day...

Posted by Grijalva (Member # 3295) on :

I'm currently going to college myself, and going for an English Major with a Creative Writing emphasis. I found that this path so far has helped with my writing tremendously. I've meant some awesome teachers who have published their own books, and helped me publish some minor things.

Going to a Unversity has also showed me how to discipline myself. Personally I just love writing and can't see myself doing anything else, so I'll spend my days studying it in hopes to make it as a writer myself. If I don't make it as a writer then I guess I will teach it, but I'm all in either way.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Since this thread is still alive...a chance conversation reminded me that there were lots of subjects I would have loved to have taken, but which weren't available anywhere I went. Here are a couple:

I would have liked to have taken some language courses other than French---but that was all that was available. I tried (and failed) with German on my own...I'd've liked to take something maybe more exotic...Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic, and Farsi come to mind. Possibly (maybe likely) I would've failed...but I'd've appreciated the exposure. (As, belatedly, I appreciate the exposure to French.)

I would've liked to take up fencing---something I might've put to use in heroic fantasy---but, again, nobody offered it. My athletic requirements ended with a course in bowling---after which I swore I would never pick up a bowling ball again as long as I lived.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

That is definitely the first time I have ever heard anyone call Spanish an exotic language.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Spanish sure seemed exotic when I was a kid...also it's kind of ancestral, along with German, Gaelic, Anglo-Saxon, and maybe Latin.

The last two are also what are euphemistically called "dead languages." I'm drawn to a language that wouldn't change from region to region, that once one got the pronounciation down one could understand anyone who spoke it at that level. (In French, I could never roll my "R"s right...)

Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :

There is no such thing as useless education.

College is probably the most efficient was to develop new experiences, new neural connections, which spark your creativity. Certainly travel and work can do the same thing, but I believe a college class can give you more new thoughts and ideas in less time than just about anything else.

The possible exception is courses in English grammar or creative writing. These may hone the writing machine in you, but if you want to expand your ideas to a higher level then take a class in psychology, sociology, economics, history, language, anthropology, mathematics, physics, art history, chemistry . . . they're all good.

Posted by Grijalva (Member # 3295) on :

Thats exactly the same way i feel. Through General Education you really get to expand your knoweldge, and with the current university I'm attending, not only do I get to be around other students with the same goals in writing, but also meet teachers who have already published many books.

Of course though, I'm attending a college with a really good english program, that encourages (well requires) students to also take higher level classes in other majors. I find writing to be a very "alone" thing to do, so when I can surround myself with other writers I do, and college is perfect for this. It makes the path to becoming hopefully a successful writer much easier.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Webcomics are a lot more efficient, using almost any possible criteria for effect compared to input.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

The most efficient way to form new neural connections is the Matric "I know Kung-Fu" method.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

That fails one important criteria of efficiency, availability.

In other words, the amount of time and effort it would take you to build such a machine is far greater than what it would take for you to learn Kung-Fu using traditional methods (and those methods would result in learning more than just the movements of Kung-Fu). Therefore it fails the efficiency test.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

Oh, Survivor. I am shaking my head and rolling my eyes right now. How dim can you be?

You don't BUILD the machine. You just take the blue pill.

Posted by Faye (Member # 4170) on :

I think majoring in Creative Writing is pointless, but I think taking more grammar classes would be beneficial (at least for me). A Creative Writing degree doesn't give you any more credibility in the field, and the other jobs it helps to get are fairly non-existent.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Well, if you have the blue pill, that's all well and good. As long as you're confident it won't just fry your existing neural connections and leave you a drooling idiot.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I've often wondered about Creative Writing courses. They were available to me, but something at the time kept warning me, "stay away." [Lousy voice in my head.] Looking back at it, I think I might have gotten something out of them, but, on the other hand, they all seemed to disdain science fiction. What could you get from a course (and teacher) that hated the genre you most wanted to write in?

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

Survivor, do you think we would even be having this conversation if I didn't have the blue pill?

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Um...now you're making me wonder which "blue pill" we're talking about.

As for hatred of SF, I think that being forced to write something you wouldn't ordinarily write is kinda the point of taking a writing class. Of course positive instruction is better than negative, but the fact that you wouldn't be able to write in your chosen genre isn't really a good reason to avoid creative writing courses.

Not that you shouldn't avoid them. Because you should.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

Back to the topic on hand (or is it AT hand? Not sure right now), Creative Writing classes can be fun, but are not I'm skeptical about their usefulness. You might as well take it if you just want a relatively pleasant class to knock out some credits, but don't expect to be a better writer at the end of the class.

If it's a workshop-style class, though, one benefit is that you quickly learn which stories are cliches, because everybody in the class will write the same bullcrap.

Posted by sholar (Member # 3280) on :

I took a workshop style creative writing course and I found it very helpful. Writing outside of my normal genre was a good thing. Of course, my field has not creative writing in it, so it also gave me an excuse to spend time writing which is hard for me to do normally.

Posted by electricgrandmother (Member # 2713) on :

I got my undergrad degree in physical/biological anthropology, though I had to have several classes in all the four subfields (which also includes archaeology, linguistics, and socio-cultural anthropology). I then did the grad school thing and studied biomedical anthropology (which is a combination of socio-cultural anthropology and biological anthropology).

This was wonderful background for me in terms of writing. First of all, my head was filled with experience and interesting (and potentially useful) knowledge. Secondly, I was taught to think critically and logically. Thirdly, though my writing skills were already quite strong, the degree helped me to develop my skills and abilities; we wrote constantly. We also read a lot (an insane amount, especially in grad school), and reading good writing helped me to write well. Finally, it helped me hit a writing groove. In grad school, I had several weeks where I had to write 100 pages a week of good quality text, if not excellent. I wrote a lot of ethnographies, which are sort of like fiction with a lot more fact and theory thrown in .

I, for one, believe that my education wasn't necessary for me to write after high school graduation, but I am so glad I did attend college, especially graduate school. Not only did it help me develop and enhance current skills, but it helped me learn new ones.

Finally, and perhaps a very important point to remember, those of us who decide we're going to be professional writers early on may need something "to fall back on" while we're learning our craft and working on publication. Even though we may eventually be published regularly, our stories and novels may not always bring in enough money to live, particularly if we start having families. Having a day job that brings in a decent paycheck (and usually one qualifies for such jobs when they have a college diploma) is usually a very nice thing. Unless you're into the starving artist ideal, that is. I have to admit, however, I tend to do my best writing when I eat somewhat regularly.