Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Childrens novels

This is topic Childrens novels in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :

I have a good idea now of the word count for an adult fiction first novel; but when I have finsihed the project I am currently working on, I am going to re-write my childrens novel(for teenagers). My question is, what is the right length for a first childrens novel, and how much violence can go into one?

I have a couple of scenes of bullying, two fights between boys, and one death.

[Edited to add:]

Thought I should mention, it's science fiction/fantasy.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

[This message has been edited by darklight (edited May 19, 2007).]

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

Why must a teen novel be different from a real novel with the exception of content? Look at Harry Potter, which is technically young adult, but appeals to both children and adults. It isn't because she wrote it down for children, she just didn't use many of the adult themes books can include. There are still situations which include some violence, and even death, but it is the manner in which it is treated that I believe is the difference.

If you concentrate on writing a good story that lacks the more adult themes and subject matter, then there shouldn't really be any other differences.

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

As to word count, it depends, I think, on the publisher. I think someone said the first Harry Potter novel was around 80,000. JK Rowling has been allowed to make her novels as lengthy as she has since then because people goble them up.

As to violence and death, I think what you described is fine. Bridge to Teribithia had a death. A lot of children's books have fights.

If your novel fits into young adult, you can get just about as bad as you want. A lot of stuff I'm seeing these days in YA gets pretty rough.

And I would put Harry Potter in the children's book category, that's where the book stores put it. So, if its shorter and less violent than Potter (ie Book 5), then I think you're fine.

Matt

Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :

Thanks for the replies.

It's at 101,000 so thinking I might have to lose twenty thousand or so.

Also having a rethink about the death. Its quite violent and I could probably lose it without changing the story too much.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I know little of the market...but what little I know makes me think even cutting twenty thousand might not do it. I would've thought between fifty and sixty thousand. (I note the Harry Potter exception as the nine-hundred-pound gorilla of teen writing.)

But there must be somebody 'round here that knows more than I do (well, at least about this). Owing to our recent disruption of service, the more knowledgable may not be in touch...

Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :

Robert, do you mean cut fifty or sixy, or have the total length fifty or sixty (which I suppose is pretty much the same thing if you think about it). I'm sure that doing either would be nearly impossible.

That would be equivilent to cutting each chapter in half - I don't think I could do that with this particular story, it would take too much away. But give me another week, and I'll have to see what I can do.

Posted by Balthasar (Member # 5399) on :

This might help:
http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/03/word-countget-fire-extinguisher.html

Actually, this might be the best advice I've seen on the issue of word count -- that is, doing the research for yourself and coming to your own conclusions. Time to start taking the advice myself, me thinks.

[This message has been edited by Balthasar (edited May 21, 2007).]

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I meant a total length between fifty and sixty thousand---but the effect is the same. And, like I said, I'm no expert.

Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :

Thanks Balthasar - some of the thoughts in the link were contradictory, but it actually helped me. In the end, I guess its up to the editor/agent. I'm no expert, but I'm sure they aren't going to reject a novel on word count alone. If its too long, but they like it, they may suggest shortening it, but I'd have thought that story and style would be their first priority.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

The problem is that editors don't have a lot of time to spend on unsolicited manuscripts (they have to read such submissions in their spare time--during their commute to and from work, etc), so they look for ways to thin the pile. This means that they look for every possible excuse to reject a manuscript unread, and length can be one of those.

If you are going to submit something that may be too long, and you want someone to actually take the time to read it before rejecting it, you may want to try to get an agent first.

If an agent will read something that might be too long, that is.

Posted by pixydust (Member # 2311) on :

I would seriously look at your work to see if you can edit. Teens want fast stories that thrill and entertain. It can be complex, but it has to have punch. Lots of it. A book that long typically can be trimmed down. And I second Kathleen. It will help you to have one less thing to leer at when that slush reader picks up your query.

Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :

I have started researching this a little bit too. Miss Snark has some useful tidbits, and I will have to dig for my other links. There are general theme guidelines for YA vs. Children's vs. Adult literature. For instance, my library classifies the first 3 HP books in with the juv titles. The next 3 are in YA. I'll have to look on the spine to see exactly...I wonder if it's part of the dewey decimal system?

Many many many books for children and YA have death and violence in them. In my view, it's *how* those bits are told that is key in making a book for a children's audience, or YA. A children's audience might have death mentioned, but not described. A YA book might give a few more details, but stop short of long descriptions of blood or the detailed explanation of the bullet entry point or which bits of who were splattered where.

In my view, it's through books/fiction where children are exposed to many of the concepts of death/life is unfair/people can be mean and cruel. 101 dalmations anyone? Any Disney story has a dead parent (usually mom) though they rarely include any explanation or depiction of the death (bambi being notable exception.) Covering these themes in your books focused on children/YA is perfectly fine, IMHO, but you may need to use more writers tools to get around doing gorey explanations for them. Allude to what happened. Use compressed narrative ("After finding her parents dead on the sidewalk, Janice was relocated to a foster home.") Talk about the death but use different words (can't get too allegorical in a children's/YA novel, though. They tend to think in more concrete terms.)

Good luck! FWIW, I think having an 80k starting point for your novel length is probably fine. Check out oliverhouse's cutting blog for ideas on cutting if you're looking for tips/tricks. (He's a Hatracker.)

Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :

Thanks for all the advice. I will start the re-write sometime toward the end of next week - I'm aiming for a 60-70 thousand word novel at the end of it, leaning toward sixty if possible.

Thanks again.

Posted by Mauvemuse (Member # 5488) on :

"Teens want fast stories that thrill and entertain"

Um, no. I am a teenager and I can tell you that action, sex or other cheap thrills do not make a book good. I want a book that is well written and has characters that are realistic. Why does the age of the audience dictate how complex it can be? Maybe for young teens (12-14 audience) blood should be toned down and some themes can be more simplistic.

Ok, I just rethought what I wrote and realized that I was mostly taking offence at being grouped with people who it seems like you guys don't think can handle 'real' books.

About your book: in general I wonder why a violent death scene was there if it had no purpose to begin with? And what age is it amaied at? If you group children and teenagers you might not know the audience well enough to write a book they would relate to (there I am being vindictive again, sorry ).

[This message has been edited by Mauvemuse (edited May 26, 2007).]

Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :

quote:
I wonder why a violent death scene was there if it had no purpose to begin with?

I don't remember saying it has no purpose to begin with. I said I could probably lose it without altering the story too much.It has purpose, but on a rethink, I thought maybe it is too much for the type of audience I am aiming for. I was aiming it at teenagers, if I said childrens novel and then teenager in the same sentance, that was my mistake. Obviously, its not aimed for anyone below the age of twelve.

Sorry, I just wanted to add; I haven't made an desicions yet what I'll cut and what I'll keep when I start the re-write. I have to lose over a third, and it won't be that easy.

[This message has been edited by darklight (edited May 27, 2007).]