Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Dashes, Ellipsis, and Commas at war

This is topic Dashes, Ellipsis, and Commas at war in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I have found that in general the comma is the best way to indicate a pause mid-speech, or rather the most "conventional" way. But one thing I can't help but notice is JKR's addiction to dashes and ellipses everywhere. They do the trick and she uses them well, but she uses them a lot. It makes me wonder how accepted this practice is, and whether these other tactics are becoming more regular, or if JKR is just an anomaly.

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

I also noticed she uses colons and semicolons frequently, too. That's fine, except the few I really paused to look at seemed like they would have been fine, or better, with just commas or periods.

As for dashes and ellipsis, I think some writers use them more than others. My rule is that if I can possible get away with a comma or period, I do so. I only use those where I feel they are critical to the feel of that line, and that is somewhat rare for me.

I use dashes more, I noticed.

What I've heard for rules is that a dashes can replace commas in a parenthetical phrase. "Then he saw Maria--that old hag--walking down the street."

Or they can add emphasis. "Then he saw Maria--his nemesis!"

I think they also work for a change of voice. "Then he saw Maria--what the hell?" (In this case, both emphasis and a change of tone or voice.)

(My understanding is that in a manuscript there should be no spaces between them. To put spaces between is considered informal? Anyone know if that is right in a submitted manuscript?)

In most case, I think a comma can replace a dash. So that is why I adopted the rule of emphasis. If I really need a phrase to stand out, I'll use a dash.

Also, I've heard that dashes are used to indicate a break, where ellipsis are used to indicate trailing off.

So if something interrupts a speaker's dialogue, use a dash. If they just trail off into silence, use ellipsis.

That's about all I know about dashes and ellipsis. I put all this hear hoping someone who knows more will correct any flaws in my understanding

Posted by luapc (Member # 2878) on :

I don't know much about how JK Rowling uses punctuation, but I do know that it is important to use punctuation correctly. Don't necessarily follow what another author does, no matter how popular they are. Just because an established author like JK Rowling can get away with bad English doesn't mean everyone can. Learn the rules and follow them. Later on when you start getting published, then you can do whatever you want, just like JKR.

Poor punctuation is the sign of a novice and will keep an author in the slush pile, no matter how much we'd like to think otherwise. A little might make it through, but rampant misuse will turn an editor off. Most editors and slush readers have English degrees and seem to think they have to use that education.

Here's a good link on some tips on how to use these confusing punctuations correctly and for the most benefit. There's also some other interesting tips to be found here.

http://www.sff.net/odyssey/tips.html

[This message has been edited by luapc (edited July 31, 2007).]

Posted by Wolfe_boy (Member # 5456) on :

Someone on here once debated with me the benefits (or restraints, depending on your perspective) of following proper punctuation, as per Strunk & White. I said then, and stand by it today, that following correct and accepted punctuation is just about the most important thing you can do in your writing. Style can and should be conveyed by sentence structure, word choice, grammar, etc, but not with punctuation. It is doable (Cormac McCarthy's The Road takes a few liberties here and there) but is should only be attempted when you are absolutely sure of what you are doing, and when you are absolutely absolutely sure it will not cause confusion for your reader. Poor grammar makes a reader think of stylistic changes. Poor punctuation either makes a reader lose track of what exactly is going on, or makes the reader think that the person in charge of the printer that day had a little too much to drink with his bowl of cheerios that morning.

Jayson Merryfield

Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :

I use parentheses a lot.

Posted by dee_boncci (Member # 2733) on :

I found Noah Lukeman's book "A Dash of Style" to be helpful. I only vary from commas and periods sparingly.

Posted by HuntGod (Member # 2259) on :

I'm fond of points of ellipses to characterize speech trailing off and then maybe picking back up.

i.e. "So I'm just supposed to wha... did you just see that big purple elephant?"

or something like that...

The internet is destroying punctuation, there is so much informal communication through; chat, email, messageboards, etc. That traditional proper punctuaion will probably not survive the next decade or so. I suspect you will see some radical changes in proper punctuation as the information age...er ages :-)

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

What cracks me up is when somebody come onto a writing board like this and uses text message abbreviations. & u wnt 2B a Wrtr?

Posted by HuntGod (Member # 2259) on :

wum? (what you mean?)

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

I use dashes fairly often where others might use parentheses, because I find dashes less obtrusive. I don't deliberately favor commas over dashes, because I believe that multiple distinct delimiter types can help readers identify the various parts of sentences, which helps me create complex sentences in which the train of thought isn't derailed.

I also use semicolons more than the average person does, but because they're not as common as dashes I avoid them when (a) writing marketing copy and (b) when the diction of my text is relatively low. I also try to make sure that I don't use too many of them, since they're unusual enough to call attention to themselves, and that's exacerbated by repetition. I have no such compunctions with dashes.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I use a fair amount. Speech and thought don't come in an orderly fashion, and I don't see any valid reason not to try to represent these things as I see fit.

I do a lot of things here I wouldn't do in straight writing, though. Parentheses are right out, for instance.

I haven't yet dived into my copies of the Seven Harry Potters, but I heard once that Rowling used rather a lot of capitalization---considered as "screaming at someone" when online posting, but might or might not play well in a book. You guys who've read it, you'd know better than me what Rowling's stylistic oddities are.

[edited to insert "not" between "reason" and "to try." It's been four days but I just couldn't let that stand.]

[This message has been edited by Robert Nowall (edited August 05, 2007).]

Posted by Snorri Sturluson (Member # 5807) on :

Curious, Oliver, since to me em-dashes seem far more "intrusive" than parentheses. Indeed, that is exactly what I use to determine when to use the em-dash; when I want something to stand out but it doesn't deserve to be bolded, underlined, or what have you. It is for this reason that I also favor spaces surrounding the em-dash (of course, that is also how I learned it, which I am sure has something to do with preferences).

Commas are nice additions to the punctuation possibilities at a writer's disposal; however, they seem to be too low key for extended asides. As a reader, I have found that asides designated by commas are more confusing than asides using em-dashes or parentheses.

In mid-speech, however, I never use parentheses; any situation that calls for it usually seems to work better as a separate paragraph. I don't have the same problem with em-dashes, however, and I would agree that the ellipsis is perfect for when someone is trailing off or distracted.

[This message has been edited by Snorri Sturluson (edited August 01, 2007).]

Posted by oliverhouse (Member # 3432) on :

Snorri, you make a good point, so let me clarify. I have to analyze how I react to text a little bit, which isn't that easy.

I find em dashes less likely to break the overall flow of thought. Parentheses always make me feel like the writer is muttering under her breath. If I'm writing a long sentence, however -- and I probably write long sentences more often than I should, with extended clauses, asides, and even whole subsentences embedded within them -- I often want the ideas to have a similar weight, if you know what I mean. From "If I'm writing" through the em dash is one part of the argument, the section in the dashes is another, and they both have a similar weight, and both reinforce the final section ("I often want"). So "less obtrusive" might have been the wrong phrase to use, but maybe you see what I mean now.

Oh, yeah, and I often use parentheses like I just did.

What do other people think? Do you get a different impression from em dashes and parentheses?

Posted by Wolfe_boy (Member # 5456) on :

I suppose that, to me, the difference between dashes and parentheses is who is being addressed, and in what manner. Dashes indicate a subtle pause when speaking to provide emphasis, but not necessarily in an out-of-character way, which is why you would likely see them in dialogue. Parenthese, on the other hand, are the writer or narrator speaking directly to the reader, and not to anyone in-story, so I would not expect them to appear in dialogue.

This is how I read it anyways.

Jayson Merryfield

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I dislike parentheses as a reader. They distract me, only because whenever I see them I feel like the scene is broken. maybe that's more because of the content that is usally in parentheses "And as he walked around the corner (he always walked slowly) he saw a big space alien."

Posted by Inkwell (Member # 1944) on :

I often see ellipses used within, or at the end of, dialogue.

Dashes are more frequently (though by no means exlusively) featured in expositional sentences to allow for an interpolated thought.

Just FYI, I was re-reading the Belisarius series (by Eric Flint and David Drake) recently, and noticed that they follow the aforementioned pattern more often than not.

Exceptions usually involve a line of dialogue that simply requires a more abrupt ending (i.e. a dash) than an ellipsis can provide. Example:

quote:
"Not bad, actually. Once we brace the door—"

-From Fortune's Stroke, by Eric Flint and David Drake
( http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0671578715/0671578715.htm )

...Or, dialogue that features interpolating exposition:

quote:
Maurice summed it up. "Could be worse. Walls are thick. The stones were well placed. Roof'll be a problem, but at least"—he pointed to the rubble filling the northern third of the farmhouse—"when it collapsed it brought down the adjoining walls. One or two Rajputs could squeeze in there, but there's no way they could do a concerted rush."

-From Fortune's Stroke, by Eric Flint and David Drake
( http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0671578715/0671578715.htm )

In my opinion, it doesn't really matter which 'format' you use, as long as you stay consistent within your own work. It's when you start jumping all over the place with dashes, ellipses, and the like that readers begin to get annoyed.

Inkwell
-----------------
"The difference between a writer and someone who says they want to write is merely the width of a postage stamp."
-Anonymous

[This message has been edited by Inkwell (edited August 04, 2007).]