This is topic WOTF. Contest Strategies. in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/writers/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004227

Posted by Christopher (Member # 6336) on :
 
I'm new to Hatrack, so I've been checking it out. I just went to the "Hatrack Groups" section and saw that there is only one group there, a World Building Group. So, I did the obvious thing. I just added a post to start a Writers of the Future Group. Those who would be interested in joining, please go check it out.

Also, I think it might be good to talk about WOTF stategies. I know Kathy W posted some ideas on how to place in the contest a few months back on the WOTF blog. Let's post those suggestions here and talk about them.

If anyone here has already placed--or even if you haven't--any thoughts, ideas, stategies? Were you part of a writing group? Who read your story before submission? What improvements, changes, etc. did you make before submission?

Also, if you have submitted and didn't win, why do you think your story (ies) didn't place higher? What have you learned from past submissions? What are you doing differently now?

I'm determined to place in the contest. I know some of you are to. Let's help each other out.

NOTE: If you don't want to share certain things here, maybe you'd be more willing to share them with the, just started, WOTF Group. Once the group gets going, ideas can be shared within the group via e-mail.
 


Posted by Christopher (Member # 6336) on :
 
"The Top Five Disqualification Points During the First Reading"

Go down and look at July 2nd.

http://wotfblog.galaxypress.com/2007_07_01_archive.html

[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited September 09, 2007).]
 


Posted by The G-Bus Man (Member # 6019) on :
 
Stupid question, where is this?
 
Posted by Christopher (Member # 6336) on :
 
It's the official Writers of the Future Blog. You can also get to the blog by going to www.writersofthefuture.com, then clicking on "blog". If you then want that particular page, search for the July archives.

[This message has been edited by Christopher (edited September 09, 2007).]
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
Ok, I have a question about one of the "Top Five Disqualification Points":

2. No sign that this is a science fiction or fantasy story by the end of
the first page


What would you say quaifies as a "sign that this is fantasy?"

This will be the last quarter that I expect to qualify since I have a couple of things being published toward the end of the year. But the story I'm thinking of submitting has no magic in it. Would it be disqualified because of that?

Anyone have any thoughts on exactly what that means?

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 10, 2007).]
 


Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
I've struggled with that one myself. It knocks out many of the stories where the speculative element appears on page 3 or later. I've ended up starting stories just with WOTF in mind. When planning it in my head, I try to make sure the speculative element is clear.

That said, in Volume 22, in Games On A Children's Ward, the speculative element didn't seem to enter immediatly(going by memory). Therefore, as has been said, amazing writing might be carry you further. Perhaps the story title can help. Perhaps a past-like setting hints at fantasy.

[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited September 10, 2007).]
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
The thing is exactly what IS a speculative element? I have another story I could send, and it's a pretty decent one but more in the "light fantasy" line. So I think my one with no magic is better. And it got good comments from the one very high end editor who looked at it. She turned it down as not what she was looking for but when that particular editor says "well written and interesting" I don't even mind a rejection.

Beside the point really. I don't know whether to try with this story or not because of the lack of magic. I mean it's clearly not in this reality which makes it speculative in my mind.

I'm just not sure that is how the judges would look at it.

I posted the first 13 lines in the Short Story section which I don't usually, but I'm curious if it looks speculative to anyone who cares to look at it. I have it up for crit at Critters Workshop, but they won't look at it with the same end in view. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 10, 2007).]
 


Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
From the best of my understanding: The speculative element is what makes the story science fiction or fantasy versus mainstream, to such a degree that without the speculative element the story couldn't function.

Both light fantasy and alternate reality would both qualify in my mind.
 


Posted by The G-Bus Man (Member # 6019) on :
 
It's the official Writers of the Future Blog. You can also get to the blog by going to www.writersofthefuture.com, then clicking on "blog". If you then want that particular page, search for the July archives.

I mean where this "Hatrack Groups" and "WOTF Group" are.
 


Posted by luapc (Member # 2878) on :
 
JeanneT, I have posted my comments on your opening in the F&F section.

Also, I wanted to make you aware that publication alone doesn't necessarily disqualify you from the contest. It is three professionally published stories, or one novelette, or one novel. There are lots of people who enter who have published numerous stories in semipro mags, like Strange Horizons or [Apex[/i] that don't count. That's another reason why the competition is so fierce. Some of the entrants are experienced writers, just not strictly professionally published by WOTF rules.

You really should check out the rules again to make sure you're not eligible anymore. I'd hate to see you miss out on the opportunity to win.
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
Well I have two novels being currently considered by publishers so I am HOPING that I won't be eligible long. We'll see.

I am eligible at the moment, but I have doubts about after this quarter. (good doubts that is) *smiles*

Edit: Thanks for bringing that up though. I will double check the rules to be sure.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 10, 2007).]
 


Posted by luapc (Member # 2878) on :
 
JeanneT, in that case I wish you the best in your ineligibility. Good luck with the novels!
 
Posted by Christopher (Member # 6336) on :
 
quote:
The G-Bus Man
I mean where this "Hatrack Groups" and "WOTF Group" are.

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum2/HTML/000062.html

 


Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :
 
quote:
www.writersofthefuture.com

I can't get on this website, is there something wrong with the link? I want to know if I am eligable to enter, of if you have to live in the US.
 


Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
The link works. Try, try, again?
 
Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :
 
Then there must be something wrong with my computer. When I click on the link, I get told I cannot connect to the page..?


Edited to say: Computers. Niether will display the page. I guess they don't want me to enter!

[This message has been edited by darklight (edited September 11, 2007).]
 


Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :
 
Doesn't say anything about location as a qualifier.

The deadline isn't until Dec 31, near as I can figure, and it happens four times a year. All this activity made me think the deadline was just around the corner! Maybe I'm the only one who likes to wait until the last minute? At any rate, for those of you interested in submitting, there's still plenty of time!
 


Posted by tlmorganfield (Member # 3461) on :
 
The problem with the link is that there's a comma in there that's not supposed to be in there. Try this one.
 
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
Well, annepin, the next deadline is Sept 30, so it is right around the corner.

The deadline for the quarter after than is Dec. I wish I had decided that far in advance that I would enter so I would have something more suitable than I do.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 11, 2007).]
 


Posted by tlmorganfield (Member # 3461) on :
 
And no, there's no restrictions on where you live for entry; it's a world-wide contest. The actual year for the contest ends on September 30th. The Dec. 31st deadline is for the 1st quarter.
 
Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :
 
tlmorganfield, thank you, that link worked!
 
Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :
 
quote:
Well, annepin, the next deadline is Sept 30, so it is right around the corner.

Really? I think I might entire this time. It should be interesting, but I think I'll take a fire-and-forget approach. I'm glad you mentioned that.
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
That's what I try to do... I'll "angst" before hand, as I am at the moment, but once it's sent the only thing to do is forget it and go on to other things. Otherwise, I'd go nuts...

Ok, no comments.
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
Bring up this old thread instead of starting a new one, but I wonder if some of you experienced WotFers might answer a question.

When I got the email saying my story was entered in the fourth quarter, it also said the results would be released in mid-December. I wondered if that was for everyone, or for the finalists and semi-finalists? Are the ones that are knocked out earlier sent rejections so they can start subbing the story or everyone finds out all at once, or what? Thanks.


[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 11, 2007).]
 


Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
I believe mid-December is just an estimate. Also results might be released starting then--just maybe not your results.

It varies. For instance, for my Q1 story that I sent last December, I didn't find out I was a semifinalist until the last week of April. For my Q2 story that I sent in the last week of March, I got the honorable mention notice in late June--but since they posted the names of the finalists and semifinalists on the blog in early June, I knew I wasn't among them.
 


Posted by luapc (Member # 2878) on :
 
The results for the middle of December would be the coordinating judge's (Kathy Wentworth's) results as far as the selections for Finalist, SemiFinalist, Honorable Mentions (Quarterfinalists), and Rejects. The results for the three winners of the quarter (taken from the eight Finalists) can take as long as three months or as short as one month after that. Also, sometimes the Semifinalists can take longer than any of the others, as Kathy Wentworth keeps them a little longer to do a critique on each of them.

Be aware, that even though the last two quarters have had the results come back within this time frame, there have been many more when it took much longer. Sometimes, the deadline for the next quarter will come and go before anyone finds out anything about the previous quarter.

Good luck to everyone in the latest quarter!
 


Posted by meg.stout (Member # 6193) on :
 
By the way, having a piece in with WOTF does not preclude submitting the story elsewhere, according to SWMBO. When I looked at submission guidelines for Baen's Universe, that seemed to be the case (although Baen's is temporarily not accepting submissions because they have already populated their issues for the next several months).
 
Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1411) on :
 
Meg,

I'm not sure I'd agree. It seems to me that you should only submit to markets that are okay with simultaneous submissions because part of winning the contest is publication in the anthology. And then it's even sketchy because who says the contest is okay with them?
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
There is nothing in the contest rules oking simultaneous submissions, and I wouldn't care to do it without it being there.

I'm not sure what SWMBO is in this context, however. Baen's accepts simsubs. That doesn't mean it's all right with WotF though.

And I don't know that Baen would be all right with a story they published being in an anthology. It depends on what rights they normally buy, which I don't recall. If you do a simsub and it is accepted, you are expected to withdraw it from other markets.

If anyone has anything showing that simsubs are ok with WotF, that would be nice to know.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 12, 2007).]
 


Posted by luapc (Member # 2878) on :
 
The first two points of the posted contest rules at http://www.writersofthefuture.com/rules.htm appear below:

quote:

1. No entry fee is required, and all rights in the story remain the property of the author. All types of science fiction, fantasy and dark fantasy are welcome.

2. All entries must be original works, in English. Plagiarism, which includes the use of third-party poetry, song lyrics, characters or another person's universe, without written permission will result in disqualification. Excessive violence or sex, determined by the judges, will result in disqualification. Entries may not have been previously published in professional media.


The first rule makes it clear that all rights remain with the author. Therefor, you could win the contest, and then have the story published elsewhere, but not the reverse. It has happened where a winner in the contest has done that, but by doing so you would be robbing yourself of being published in the yearly WOTF anthology, and no market pays as well for a short story than WOTF.

The second rule makes it clear that if you had simultaneous submissions, and it was accepted by a market other than WOTF and sold to them, then you would automatically make yourself ineligible to win with that story, since it would become a previously published work.

So, while you could do simultaneous submissions, if the other market accepted the story and wanted to buy it, you would have to make a decision which market to sell it to. You can't win in WOTF with the same story published elsewhere.

[This message has been edited by luapc (edited October 13, 2007).]
 


Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
 
JeanneT, SWMBO is She Who Must Be Obeyed referring to KDW (Kathleen Dalton Woodbury), our moderator.
 
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
IB, I am aware what SWMBO stands for, just had no idea who meg was talking about in the context of WotF. I thought she was talking about a WotF judge or official.

If Kathleen has ever made a post regarding WotF rules, I've never seen it and, much as I respect her, I don't consider her the ultimate authority on them. However, I do think she would be careful before she posted anything on the subject.

I believe that luapc is correct on the rules of the contest. I will not be subbing the story until I know the results. Generally speaking, when I sub a story somewhere that doesn't mention simsubs, I make the assumption that means you shouldn't do them. Since they aren't mentioned in the rules, I assume they aren't a good idea. I think luapc's explanation of the rules is probably spot on.

Edit: While I freely admit my chances of winning are so small as to be miniscule, I don't want to reduce that to nil.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 13, 2007).]
 


Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
 
quote:

IB, I am aware what SWMBO stands for, just had no idea who meg was talking about in the context of WotF. I thought she was talking about a WotF judge or official.

Sheesh. I was just trying to help.

KDW informed someone--in an earlier thread--that you can submit elsewhere. I tried hunting it down for you, but I can't remember what the name of the thread was.

PS - as to SWMBO, I haven't seen any other description fitting this acronym. Anywhere.
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
I know you were trying to help, IB, and didn't mean to imply otherwise. I'm sure I didn't make it clear what I didn't understand so I tried to clarify it.

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. I apologize.

If she has discussed this, I haven't seen it. It looks as though a simsub wouldn't exactly be against the rules, but might be a problem if it is accepted elsewhere. I won't take the chance on it on the extraordinarily slim chance that Mr. Card would like my female protag. *falls down laughing*

Actually, I have no idea how the judging works (and whether all the judges have to like the winner) except that he is one of the judge.

Edit: I've never seen another meaning of the acronym either. I don't know how widely it's used, but I have seen it occacionally.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 13, 2007).]
 


Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
 
You didn't ruffle my feathers too bad. I was just bored. I'm actually cooling off from just finishing a short story, which will probably be my next WOTF entry. It's doubtful that I'll write another in time to do the editing and clean-up--especially given that critiquers never really deliver quickly.
 
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
Okay, when I was published in Volume 9 of WRITERS OF THE FUTURE, Dave Wolverton was the first judge and anthology editor. He told me that there was no problem with submitting a story somewhere else while you were waiting to hear if you won in a quarter, as long as the story had not been published already somewhere else before you submitted it to WotF.

He also told me that there had been a few winners who had sold their stories to a magazine after submitting to WotF, and that they had still published the stories in the anthology, except for the one winner who had decided not to be published in the WRITERS OF THE FUTURE anthology, but that was the only one.

I wondered about that at the time, because they purchased First World Serial Rights to my story (instead of First World Anthology Rights as I would have expected), and those are the rights usually purchased by magazines, so they would have had to purchase second serial rights from the authors who had sold their stories elsewhere.

I don't know if they changed the policy now that K. D. Wentworth is the first judge and anthology editor, but they haven't changed the official rules. I can ask her, if you like.

PS--if I have any say in the matter, I'd prefer SHE to SWMBO. <shrug>
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
I usually just refer to you by name. SHE sounds dangerous if you recall the extremely old novel by that title.

If you could check on that, I'd sure appreciate it. If you sold something after submitting it, my experience is that there is a good chance it wouldn't actually appear until after the winners were declared anyway, but the subject of rights seems to be a problem.

Edit: And thanks very much for offering to check on it. And for the clarification on your own preference, although I think I'll probably stick with calling you by name if you don't mind.

I would have assumed WotF would buy anthology rights, but some magazines and ezines want those rights for anthologies too, so I'm really hesitant on the whole thing.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 14, 2007).]
 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
Okay, I'll check.

By the way, "She Who Must Be Obeyed" is the full title/name of the title character in H. Rider Haggard's old novel, SHE. So it all goes together.

I'm fine with people addressing me by my real name. I was just saying that I prefer SHE to SWMBO (for those who want to abbreviate She Who Must Be Obeyed).
 


Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :
 
Good to know, Kathleen. Of course anytime I refer to you as SHE will cause that Green Day song to run through my head (which may be appropriate - "She, She screams in silence. A sullen riot penetrating through her mind." Hey - no one said they were poets, but darn that's a catchy song. Good bass riff.
 
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
I'd forgotten who wrote that and that "She who must be obeyed" came from it. Thanks for the reminder. I read that off my grandmother's bookshelf when I was a kid.

Thanks again for checking on the contest situation.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited October 17, 2007).]
 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
Okay, I checked, and this is what K.D. Wentworth said:

quote:
The simultaneous submission issue has not come up since I took over Coordinating Judge, but I think they would not be okay with it. It's very important to them that the stories appear in print for the first time in the anthology.

So I was wrong, and I apologize.
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
No need, Kathleen. Thank you very much for checking.
 
Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
http://wotfblog.galaxypress.com/2007/11/4th-quarter-writers-of-future-finalists.html

BTW, it hasn't sunk in yet. Of course, there's only a 37% chance that my story will place, but at least, I've met one of my writing goals: getting past the first reader!
 


Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :
 
Wow, congrats! How awesome.
 
Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
Thanks.

I almost forgot to add, I only let two people see this. My wife and Paul(luapc). Without his feedback the story wouldn't have gotten as far as it did.
 


Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :
 
WOW! Congrats Chris Owens, I'm so excited for you! I hope you make it to the top 3.
 
Posted by luapc (Member # 2878) on :
 
Thanks for that Chris, but I don't deserve any credit. You wrote a great story, and deserve to be a finalist. I've got my fingers crossed for you.
 
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
Congrats!

Edit: Needless to say I feel very sorry for myself not making it that far, but I'm sure your story is great. Way to go.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 14, 2007).]
 


Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
Thanks.

I think that if I can get this far after 4 years, anyone can if they make it thier primary writing goal. The story took a lot of effort. I fussed over it like a mother fussing over a child's first day in school. And, of course, it hasn't placed yet. Now I worry what sort of grade my child will come home with...

 


Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :
 
Did you read through and analyze previous winners' stories? Or do you just mean that you've been entering for the last four years?
 
Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
Alas, not quite. I've yet to master clarity in writing...

I've been writing for about four years, since '03. I floundered around on a rough novel, got halfway through a revision, and then decided to heed the advice that it's best to learn how to craft a short story/novelette first. If I couldn't do that, how could I hope to write a publishable novel?

Thus, I've been entering for two years. In '05, I entered for the first time. It was more of a try-it-and-see. The story came back a quarterfinalist. I tried again six months later and that came back a quarterfinalist.

This past year I've entered 3 times. In the first quarter, my story was a semifinalist. The second time an honorable mention(aka quarterfinalist).

So as a goal, it grew on me, and--I haven't won yet. The jury is still out on that. So I can't talk as though I'm coming down from the Mount with the ten writing commandments. But I've fulfilled the goal in being a finalist and getting through the first reader. If it doesn't win, my next goal should be to not only be a finalist, but win first, second, or third place.

I've read Volume 22 & 23 all the way through, and a handful of stories from Volume 21. But to be honest, when I have a book in my hands, I'm not in analyze mode. I'm in enjoyment mode. I haven't learned to condition myself to study the text as a writer. As a reader, of course, I've all sorts of opinions. I can only take away a lesson in the places where my inner reader and inner writer intersect.

[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited November 14, 2007).]
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
It's great to achieve a goal. Because I write so few short stories, I doubt I'll ever enter again but it was interesting doing it once. I wish I knew if the story was considered at all or got past the screening or whatever they call it though out of curiosity.

quote:
then decided to heed the advice that it's best to learn how to craft a short story/novelette first. If I couldn't do that, how could I hope to write a publishable novel?
I can't say I particularly agree with that advise though. I find very little similar in writing the two. But whatever works for you.

Edit: Hey, out of curiosity, do they bother notifying the losers in any way?

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 14, 2007).]
 


Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
Everyone should get some notice(email or snail mail), whether they were finalists, semifinalists(who get a critique), honorable-mention/quarterfinalists, or nonplacers.

Of course, the post office is not always reliable. Neither rain nor snow--but mistakes are made. Of course, even emails from Grandma get lost in the junk folder.

The Semifinalists were just announced:
http://wotfblog.galaxypress.com/2007/11/semi-finalists-announced.html

[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited November 14, 2007).]
 


Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
True, when dealing with creativity, it is subjective. What works for one, doesn't work for another.

For quite a while, I haven't been able to write a true short story (that is where 250*manuscript_pagecount <= 7500). No matter how hard I try, I end up with a novelette.

To be sure, there is a gulf between short stories and novels, however, in a shorter work, the fundamentals of storytelling/writing are all there, it just has to be lean and mean. Fewer characters. Few subplots--if any. No Jordan-like density of setting. One day, I hope the bridge the gap. Of course, I've a lot to learn in order to do so.
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
Well, it doesn't exactly matter much but would have been kind of nice to know. Then again, if I ever write another short story I'll be a bit surprised.
 
Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :
 
If you don't hear back, you can always query Author Services.
 
Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :
 
If you included a SASE with appropriate postage, you should get your manuscript back with ...well, I don't know. Something. I was QF last time so I got the "your story didn't suck. Keep at it!" letter (honestly, it's a huge deal to me, I might frame it. ) I think if you don't place you might not get any sort of letter, but your MS back.

But this time, I really think my MS got lost in the INBOUND mail because I never heard confirmation on receipt of MS (which I received the last time I entered, about 17 days after I had sent the MS.) Sniff sniff. I could have been a contender.

That's OK. Anyone from Hatrack in the semi-finalist list? If so, congrats!! It's a great contest. I'm excited about my next quarter entry. Once Nano is done, it's my primary project for December. I'm counting on all the other writers out there being too busy with holiday stuff to submit, so my story will naturally rise to the top. Right?


 




Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2