Just for fun, I decided to run some statistics. Of the last fifty people to introduce themselves, five have posted a "first 13" under short stories. Of the last fifty people to post a "first 13" under short stories, fifteen have gone on to make a second post this month, eight have three posts, one (me) has five, monstewere has six, and debhoag has an amazing nine. Yeah, debhoag!
Of course, the important statistic is what percent of the people who come here with a serious desire to become professional writers make it. Any guesses?
Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :
I was actually wondering about that very thing, Rick, but wasn't sure it would be appreciated if I asked. Now that you have, though, Yippee! I would love to know how many folks that come here end up being published. Two qualifications: they stick around more than, say, three months, and the story is something that has been posted here - seem right?
Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :
I think I'm one who posted three times. I, too, was wondering about this. How long is the average time people spend on the forum? How many of these folk get published, and how many drop off after they get published? I even when back into the archives and poked around to see some old names there who don't post any more.
Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :
I think a lot of people get their first crit or two and decide its not their cup of tea and just drop out. That's why i was qualifying by people who continue posting for several months.
Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :
quote:I think a lot of people get their first crit or two and decide its not their cup of tea and just drop out.
If one weren't used to critiques, one might run screaming from F&F. I agree with Deb.
I think one of the first issues a newbie here has is that the first thirteen isn't the whole story. I had my doubts at first, but I've learned a ton from F&F. I think the uniqueness of it is important. You can go lots of other places to get a full critique.
While it's not the whole story, it says lots about your writing.
Sadly, it can be a bit of a shock to receive 39 lines of feedback on 13 lines of text, from 10 different people
Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :
a veritable banquet of critical observations to choose from!
Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :
Well, I think also people come on with a variety of projects and intentions. For instance, my primary focus is my novel, and after that, another novel. Short stories are a recent experiment for me, hence the rarity of my posts in that area. Novels are not only slower to get to a point where I might solicit critiques, but also, once I post an opening, that's kind of it for a while. I'm working on other parts first before I worry too much about getting a killer opening down. I don't think you can necessarily gauge from my behavior on the board my seriousness, or whether or not I'm shocked by F&F. Some people, I suspect, sign on not to get critiqued but just to be part of a witty, astute community of writers.
Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :
Here are a few more questions worth asking:
How many Bootcampers go on to get published? In my group, probably 8-9 have been published in the last year.
Do Bootcampers come back to the main forums, or do they stick to the closed forums?
Just wonderin'...
Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :
And is it bootcamp that polishes you up and gets you published, or is it the fact that you are serious enough to set aside the time and money to go to bootcamp?
Posted by The G-Bus Man (Member # 6019) on :
quote:Of course, the important statistic is what percent of the people who come here with a serious desire to become professional writers make it. Any guesses?
Lots?
I'd also be interested to see where I rate, although I haven't been making a lot of posts anywhere but here, and even here as of late not a lot.
I've been lost in Homecoming
Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :
Homecoming as in a fascinating new work of fiction you are going to share with your friends, or homecoming as in teenagers and chaperones and gyms with paper flowers?
Posted by wrenbird (Member # 3245) on :
I have been with Hatrack since Feb 06, and I come on all the time. Trouble is, I am working on a novel, and as excited as I am about it, I am not going to post the first 13 lines until I am finished with the first draft. But, I absolutely have a serious desire to become a professional writer. I would wager that there are many in my same situation, so perhaps the statistics do not tell the whole story. That said, I assume that many drift through Hatrack, post their work, sneer at any negative responses, and never come back.
Posted by meg.stout (Member # 6193) on :
I think that being a bootcamper correlates with being published because:
1) You have to have a decent command of language to get pass the 8:1 screen (nominally 100 applicants of which 15 or so make the cut).
2) You have to be someone who cares enough about writing that you're willing to pony up a week and ~$1000 (tuition, travel, hotel, etc.) to polish that craft.
3) You get to spend three days working together with Scott Card, learning all that stuff that you can't get from his books (good though they are) and public lectures. And you get both all the whippings you deserve for your writing faults in a nurturing environment where you are also told how wonderful your writing is based on a story you whipped up out of nothing in a single day.
I find I like to wander over here to Hatrack, but it takes time I can't always afford if I also want to be a productive human, a parent, and a writer. Not to mention my favorite vices...
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
Well, keep in mind that Mr. Card's bootcamp isn't by any means the only writer's workshop and his methods of teaching (and theories) aren't the only ones out there.
Whether it is nurturing or not--well, I don't know. I know it wouldn't be the one for me.
Edit: However, I am intensely focused on reaching a professional standard in my work. That doesn't mean that I find this the best place to get my work critted. It is nice for chatting (or occasionally arguing).
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 16, 2007).]
Posted by KayTi (Member # 5137) on :
My guess is 50% or less come here with the serious desire to get published in, say, the next 12 months. I think a lot of students use these forums, and that's great. I also think a lot of people who are interested in writing but a little less serious about it (say, would like to be published *some day* but aren't doing the things they need to do now to get themselves published in the next 12 mos, e.g., writing a lot, revising a lot, researching the market, submitting, etc.)
But then that's 50% of the currently ACTIVE community at any given time. From what I can tell, that's about 100 users, give or take. I think the forum shows a few thousand (2900 is the number in my head but I'm not sure if I made that up, LOL) registered users, but I'd hazard a bet that in any given month, only 100, maybe 200 max post anything on any of the public forums.
Posted by JeffBarton (Member # 5693) on :
I've been posting here for 3 months and put up two attempts at stories. The result is that I've learned more in a few months than in the previous 6 years. One of the stories has been submitted and the other is being re-worked to novel length. With all I have to gain, why would I leave?
The most beneficial critiques have been off-line reads of "the whole thing" rather than first 13's. The on-line crits of 13 lines are valuable when they discuss the way things are expressed and how to put a hook where an editor is most likely to read it. It has been far more valuable when Hatrackers have been able to tell me their opinions about entire plots, characterization, etc.
The critiques I've received also helped me make progress in giving constructive criticism, so I can return the favors.
Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :
I want to become a professional writer and have been posting for a few months. I've posted first 13s for three short SF stories. From crits of the first 31s and the stories themselves I've learned much and feel stronger as a storyteller. As a result of Hatrack crits one of those shorts will grow into a series, and one of the others will perhaps develop into the backstory for a longer work.
Also, I find I learn from critiqueing other people's stories, because I have to explain why I think the story doesn't work as well as what does. Sometimes those lessons are relevant to my own work.
Like most wannabe writers I've read several books on writing, yet not completely understood them. I find the discussions here bring them to life. Now I know, for example, why adverbs are considered a Bad Thing and how they might be fixed.
Finally I think Hatrack is a great mutual support group. It's kinda fun to know there are others out there wrestling with the same writerly problems, and it's encouraging to get a few offers to read one's latest piece and learn what works, what doesn't.
Cheers, Pat
Posted by Wolfe_boy (Member # 5456) on :
quote:However, I am intensely focused on reaching a professional standard in my work. That doesn't mean that I find this the best place to get my work critted.
I'm interested in where these other more serious places are? Am I just out of the loop?
Jayson Merryfield
Posted by MrsBrown (Member # 5195) on :
I'm one of those who might attempt to get published *some day*. My time is so limited--I'm not willing to sacrifice elsewhere to become a pro. But I lurk around because there's a lot to learn here, and my story wants to be told.
Echo the comments on novel-length work -- I've received first-13 crits here on two alternate beginnings (thanks folks!), but the rest will probably have to wait. Last week a relative (a long-time member of a writer's group) critted my first two chapters, and boy did she catch a lot! It was funny -- the other relatives were worried for me, that she was too rough, but there was only one comment that didn't sit well, and we talked it through later. I can't wait to have a good chunk of time to re-work it.
I've only critted two short pieces here off-line, and I'm not sure yet if they were done "right". And I haven't asked anyone here to crit more than my first 13, because it is so much a work in progress -- I'd rather wait until its further along to ensure I'm making better use of people's time, if that makes sense.
Posted by Alethea Kontis (Member # 3748) on :
Bootcamp (2003) was an inspiration, an eye opener, and a serious kick in the butt. I had no idea how desperately in need I was of all three.
My fellow campers that went on to some fame and fortune (and who still keep in touch) are: Eric James Stone, Scott Roberts, Nadia Cornier (of Firebrand Literary Agency), Christine Amsden, and David Gill.
(Am I forgetting anyone?)
Eventually, we evolved beyond the Bootcamp forums.
Posted by BoredCrow (Member # 5675) on :
This place was an excellent find for me. Already, my early stories are becoming polished and perhaps even publishable. People here are really good at serious critiquing without being cruel. I think what I've learned here will give me the courage to move on to tougher venues - writers conferences, etc. (Perhaps it shows how much of a novice I still am that I can't come up with more than one 'tougher venue') Posted by Rick Norwood (Member # 5604) on :
I'm very tempted to apply to the Boot Camp. I live in Tennessee, so it would be an easy trip. On the other hand, I'm afraid I would start to argue politics with Card, which would be a total waste of his time and mine.
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
quote:I'm interested in where these other more serious places are? Am I just out of the loop?
Well, I didn't say this place wasn't serious, it just doesn't suit me. Critter's Workshop is where I do my critting and have my work critted, if you want to know.
I generally prefer to have my novels critted as a whole and put out a Dedicated Critter request.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited September 22, 2007).]
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
I don't comment much because I don't put up much. I think it'd be rude to comment directly on someone's work without offering up my own. Instead I stay over here and comment on what pops up here.
I have offered up and I have commented. Just rarely.
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
I pretty much never crit here since I don't put up stories to be critted here.
Someone got really mad at me not long ago (well, I suspect she was already mad at me) for saying that, because I do comment on issues people bring up about there works. I don't consider that critting. If someone asks, do you think "thus and so" will work, I don't mind giving an opinion. But I won't actually crit unless I'm willing to put my own work up to be critted.
As an exception, I put up the first 13 of the story I sent to WotF, but that is likely to be a one time thing. I have nothing against Hatrack River. I just prefer the setup of other venues.
Posted by mrmeadors (Member # 6378) on :
Am I the only weirdo (usually so...) who was published first, and then joined this group?
I joined because while I belong to a wonderful writing group, none of them write in the same genre I do. So I was missing out on critiques that take genre into account, and what the markets look for and all that stuff. I wanted to go that step forward. I would definitely say that I am aiming toward being a professional. I try to have at least three short stories out there (meaning, somewhere in an editor's office) at all times. And I work on my novel in between shorts (like, if I get stuck with my novel, I let it rest while I work on a short story).
Um, did I even answer the question? Sorry. I have a five year old, and obviously, it's witching hour!!
