Ok, good writing, decent plot, excellent dialogue to one side, what subject matter will make you a little forgiving towards a piece?
I read a few posts recently. I have not quoted directly but one said '...it's about an assassin, so you have me hooked already...' The other said '...just another dragon story...'
So what does turn you on? A list will do.
My turn ons:
Assassins Thieves Historical fantasy Vampires Werewolves
Turn offs:
Dragons Mummies Zombies Killer plants
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 21, 2007).]
Posted by rstegman (Member # 3233) on :
swap your lists of good and bad and you have me.......
The better way is to go to the book store or library and read several hundred books, Then write the kind of stories that you really enjoyed reading. Make sure you keep track of the publishers of those stories so that you know who to submit your stories to.
Posted by Leigh (Member # 2901) on :
Turn on's:
Dragons Swords A good magic system A world that is simple yet planned well. Internal Politics Adventure Bloody battles Hysterical Adventures
and the list can go on...
Turn Off's:
Tolkien rip-off's Bad writing
I'm actually pretty much open minded about a lot of things, so I have a lot more turn on's then turn off's.
Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :
Action and adventure. Humour. Mystery. An good anti-hero (of which I have written a few myself). Believable characters. A good story set in space or other worlds. Horror.
Turn-offs.
Stories that when you've finshed, you wonder that was the point of it. Endless pointless description. Characters that have no purpose. Stories that the ending is obvious after the first few chapters.
Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :
Turn on's
Silk Leather
Wups, sorry, wrong list.
Fantastic machines Larger-than-life heroes and heroines and villains and villainesses -- with moral codes Sassy characters Strange worlds of wonder Interstellar vistas
Turn off's
Gore Gratuitous violence and throwing up Absence of character motivation LOTR and HP ripoffs Books series designed to be long in order to sell more books Books that do not tell you until the end that they are the first of a series designed, etc, etc, etc
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
Well, first off, Ewwwwww!
And then:
Turn-ons: ruined advanced civilizations, quests, occasional living dead (if science-fictional in nature and origin).
Turn-offs: "unknowable" plot points, absolutely evil characters, fighting with primitive weapons when advanced ones are available.
Posted by Lynda (Member # 3574) on :
Turn-ons:
Good characters, story, plot Humor A touch of romance Strong magic system (although it doesn't all have to be explained, it has to be LOGICAL) Realisitic writing even in fantasy - if you can write it realistically enough, I'll BELIEVE it, and the story will be much more fun! Dragons can be cool Heroes who aren't perfect. I love Superman, but part of what makes him wonderful is that he has weaknesses. I love Harry Potter (bless him!) but he's far from perfect, with his short temper, bad vision, and his heavy reliance on Hermione always knowing the answers. Action/adventure without too much blood
Turnoffs
Deadly serious characters - everyone (on the good side, anyway) should have at least a slight sense of humor Writers who like to show off their vocabulary when using a simpler word would've made the story flow better. Gore for gore's sake Stupid plots (anything that resembles those movies where I can actually quote you the next line before I've heard it, and tell you who's going to die in the first five minutes of the movie - I hate movies like that, and books like that get put down after the first few pages) Trivializing what the hero goes through, if he's a true hero facing things like war, battle, wounds, trauma, etc. Show me his suffering, make it real, and the book will be more interesting. "Bulletproof" heroes (with the exception of Superman, who really IS bulletproof!) Anyone who runs through a hail of gunfire (or spellfire) should have at least a few injuries! Totally unrealistic writing - fantasy and sci-fi are wonderful, but if there are humans involved, make them BREATHE for me! They will be injured in battle, they will make mistakes, they will do wrong things at times, even if they're the best possible person alive. And if you have fantasy characters or aliens, make them "real" living beings too, or I won't read them.
JMO.
Lynda
Posted by mfreivald (Member # 3413) on :
Fiction Likes: -Humor--even in serious stories -Mysteries (not speaking of the genre, though I like them, too.) -Puzzles -Very sharp and difficult dilemmas -Paradoxes -Fallen protagonists (as opposed to anti-heroes) -Stories that--even if they are about the worst sort of thing--are optimistic and uplifting to the reader. (Graham Greene, one of my favorites, often has his characters teetering between damnation and salvation, but he always leaves that glimmer of hope of redemption.) -Philosophical stories--stories that make me think -Stories that answer important parts of the mystery--but leave some mystery left. -Themes of nobility.
Fiction Dislikes: -Just about anything gratuitous -Premature broadcasting of later action -Any books promoting evil themes or ways of thinking. (Consequentialism seems to be getting more and more common these days. And note that I did not say anything about books that involve evil themes--I mean the ones who *promote* them.) -Excessive realism (For example, extremely drawn out battle scenes that do not help the story. Also, excessive cursing for the sake of "realism." Same goes with gore, sex, or even blowing noses. --See "Just about anything gratuitous" above.) -Arbitrary magic (Yech! One of the annoying things about the Jordan WOT books--though I am a fan of sorts--is that they seemed to randomly come up with new rules to the magic as they went along. The Susan Cooper books are far worse about it, though.) -Books that take themselves too seriously. -I don't mind stories that broadcast the opinions of the author--even if it's something simple-minded (which might even enhance the entertainment value), but I hate it when it overwhelms the characters and story.
Posted by mfreivald (Member # 3413) on :
Hey, Robert.
Could you explain what you mean by "unknowable" plot points?
Thanks, Mark
Posted by Corky (Member # 2714) on :
I'm kind of partial to stories about lost colony ships that land on a new planet and learn how to live there. Examples: DARKOVER LANDFALL by Marion Zimmer Bradley, POLYMATH by John Brunner. However, I found McCaffrey's DRAGONDAWN to be unbelievably dull.
As for dragons, I am loving Naomi Novik's dragon series, but I don't pick up/read everything that has a dragon on the cover.
I'd have to say I like interesting ideas that are well-written and supported by strong characters I care about, and I am "turned off" by anything that doesn't follow through on what it initially promised.
Edited to add: I also get really irritated by stories that don't "earn" the emotional response they seem to be expecting from the reader. If you want me to care, be certain that the characters' motivations make sense, and make the problem something worth caring about.
[This message has been edited by Corky (edited November 21, 2007).]
Posted by nitewriter (Member # 3214) on :
Likes:
Classic sf movies (forbidden planet, war of the worlds, time machine, etc.) S.King, Poe, Bierce, Crichton, Bradbury & many others. Stories with a beginning, middle and end. Lyrical prose (Updike, Bradbury) Stories that illuminate human character, traits, shortcomings as well as nobility - (Flowers for Algernon) Stories that evoke an emotional response and or make me think about something in a different/new way. Dark humor, satire (Dr. Strangelove)
Dislikes:
Dragons, elves, trolls, sword bearing heros - in short, Tolkien, Rowling, anything in the realm of fantasy. Stories with "laugher" endings (Independance Day) Stories so ethereal or surreal, so far out there they only make sense to the author - or those with brains on chemical overload. Stories with thin or no plots - or no apparent direction. Much of the bilge published today under the misnomer "literature". Characters placed in a story who seemingly are placed there more to advance a cause/agenda than the story - the (it seems to me anyway) increasing number of gay characters for instance. I can relate to a heterosexual character much easier than a gay one. With scenes where same sex affection is expressed, I don't feel empathy or anything else except a disconnect. Any story where the story serves as a vehicle to make a PC statement - an armor laden woman bearing heavy guns who blazes her way to victory/glory and saves the world/crew/company. (Alien) Implication? There just wasn't a man around who was good enough to get the job done.
[This message has been edited by nitewriter (edited November 21, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by nitewriter (edited November 21, 2007).]
Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :
Turn Ons: Complicated, logical politics Lack of Predictability, with several good ending possibilities or none at all
Turn Offs: Characters with unbelievable or absent motivations Massive economic blunders Overly simplistic politics
Posted by mfreivald (Member # 3413) on :
quote:logical politics
Oxymoron alert!!!
Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :
quote: Characters with unbelievable or absent motivations Massive economic blunders Overly simplistic politics
So you wouldn't vote for Bush then.
AHEM!
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited November 21, 2007).]
Posted by mfreivald (Member # 3413) on :
quote:So you wouldn't vote for Bush then.
So you wouldn't vote at all, then.
double AHEM!
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited November 21, 2007).]
Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :
Ons: Raw emotion Self-deprecating protags. Intricate politics Choices, of which no choice is perfect or without heavy costs Intelligent protags. Integrity in a protag. Sacrifice, nobility, sense of honor in a protag A protag who envisions an ideal Heroic deeds in the face of danger A no-win situation Complex worlds Mysteries (not whodunnits, but enigmatic events) War heroes, both unlikely and likely, reluctant, and eager Well done battle scenes (a whole 'nother list) Stories that convey a deeper spiritual meaning (not necessarily religious, and not necessarily this-world spiritualism or religion).
Offs: Whimsy Dragons (yeah, I recognize myself in one of those quotes!) Beautiful protagonists Elves and orcs (unless the author happens to be Tolkien) One-sided villains who are motivated solely by a desire to cause chaos or perpetuate evil for its own sake. Flowery writing An author that "tries too hard"; that is, is trying to make their work fresh or unusual. "Oriental"--work that fancies itself Asian "Journey" stories Too much magic, or incidental magic The "wise hermit" figure
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
Turn offs:
BAD WRITING BAD WORLD BUILDING STORIES WHERE THE WOMAN IS ONLY THERE TO BE SAVED!!!! Stories where if something important needs to be done the MAN has to do it Fantastic machines Larger-than-life heroes and villains Sassy characters (shudders at the very word) Interstellar much of anything Rip-off of ANY kind Poorly designed or inconsistent magic systems Stories that use rape, sado/masochism, or degrade women, gays or anyone else. (but you can degrade orcs if you want to )
Turn on's:
GOOD WRITING! GREAT WORLD BUILDING! A good anti-hero A good fallen hero Strong female characters (either as the hero or villain or secondary character) Playing around with fantasy trope Dragons - if they are well done Swords - but generally only if they're not magical A good magic system Internal Politics Adventure Huge bloody battles Sex - hell, yeah, when it's well done Cussing when it's appropriate A world with a gritty feel A large range of kinds of people -- just like in the real world. Yeah there ARE gays, fat people, different races, ugly people and all kinds of others in a world and if you leave them out I think the world is shallow. (Really part of world building but so frequently not done that it deserves a separate mention)
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 21, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 21, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 21, 2007).]
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
Don't call me baby. You haven't even bought me dinner.
Turn Ons: Characters I can believe in (but, sometimes are larger than life).
Strong, silent-type warriors (with reasons)
Loud, bawdy warriors (as long as they are humorous)
Underdogs (mentally, physically, monetarily) overcoming their obstacles and being rewarded for their struggle
Reluctant heroes.
Good heroes doing good things at great costs (David Gemmell comes to mind)
Assassins (especially with inner conflict)
Spies
Redemption stories
Well done tragedies
Heroic Fantasy/Historical Fantasy
Historical Fiction
Werewolves that aren't the protagonists
Agent/Assassins/Spies that are hunted while doing the "loyal" or "right" thing for their countries
Solomon Kane (werewolf/vampire/undead/witch hunters)
Simultaneous timeline stories
Alternate theories for cliche races/monsters (Brian Lumely's symbiote-parasitic-protoplasmic vampires come to mind)
Turn Offs:
Inconclusive prose. Something that progressively confuses me and never explains why.
Pet Dragons. Dragons that turn into people when they want. Cute, cuddly dragons (Puff the freakin' Magic Dragon; Pete's Dragon).
Typical (stereotypical) unicorns, faeries, elves, dwarves, ogres, orcs, goblins, gremlins, and genies. (If there's been a cartoon movie made of it, it's probably something I'm sick of.)
Non Sequiturs/books that the authors switches to a different plot in the middle of.
It was a/an illusion/dream/game.
The protagonists hit everything they are aiming at (even when not looking), but the opposition can't even hit the toilet bowl.
Antagonists that I like better than the protagonists
The protagonist crying with snot-dripping, body-racking sobs, over a girl rejecting him (especially when it happens more than once).
multiple protagonists with interchangable personae.
Soap opera-type plots and love-triangles
Characters immune to extreme heat/cold (unless it's a species-related reason)
Alternate names for mundane things
The protagonist knowing a key detail more than a page or two without evealing it, and revealing said detail at the end (as if the author is saying, "you couldn't guess it.")
Having to break out reference material to comprehend what people are saying (specifically in Hard Sci-Fi). Not so much for the ideas or sciences as for the dialogue and thought patterns
Having to go around the block to discover that the answer was right in your mailbox
All weak women or All strong women
All handsome, sculpted heroes and All fat or scrawny mages
Avoiding blood or gore on moral standings (If I want a body count without any of the specifics, I'll watch the news)
Gratuitous violence, gore, sex, politics, science, or religion
Preaching or lecturing prose
Arrogant heroes
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited November 21, 2007).]
Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :
Turn on's: 1. Great characters. 2. Good bad guy/girls. 3. Vampires/Werewolves/Zombies (a different twist is good). 4. Dragons that are simply dragons. 5. Magic that has a price. 6. Appropriate humor. Sometimes inappropriate humor. 7. Flawed heroes. 8. Heroes that screw up. 9. Redeemable bad guys. 10. Strong female characters. If that makes them mean or tough sometimes, so much the better. 11. Shocking turns. Unexpected deaths. Good guys getting amnesia and turning bad.
Turn off's: 1. Dragons with complex emotional struggles (ala Eragon) -- ding ding ding, we've mentioned Eragon, it's officially a good thread. 2. Magic that has no rules or cost. 3. Guns that never run out of bullets. 4. An obvious rip-off of anything. 5. A story that doesn't end (unless its a series). 6. Duplicate characters (this is my beef with Fox's Bones series. You have two characters, Dr. Brennen and Zack, that are social misfits trying to figure out the real world--one character should go). 7. Characters that seem to get mad at nothing and are overly angry (like every angry scene in Eragon). 8. A story that doesn't live up to what we were told the story would be (ie, start out as one type of story and end up another. OSC has discussed this.) 9. Characters having sex just for the heck of it (I know people do this in real life, but if I'm going to read about it, it better have a good reason.) 10. When someone dies and the hero is cool about it a few pages later. When someone dies, there should be some grieving. 11. Lecturing the reader. It's okay for characters to lecture each other, but I'd like to see both points of view. Don't make a character seem stupid for having a different POV. 12. Cowards. Yes, they exist, but I just don't like them. 13. Long descriptions of weaponry. I'm not a weapons expert and I don't care what kind of sword you're using. Just say sword. If it has to be long or short, fine, but I don't care what it's called. Unless its Excalibur. 14. King Arthur tales.
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
quote:Could you explain what you mean by "unknowable" plot points?
Stories where the writer reaches a point where some hint of what's going on that's making these characters do what they're doing, but the writer can't or won't explain it, but instead uses the excuse that it's, oh, not something that can be understood. (John Varley, in "Press Enter" and "The Persistence of Vision," is a big offender---I think I went right off his works 'cause of it. And so what if the stories won awards? They turned me off...)
Posted by AstroStewart (Member # 2597) on :
Turn Ons: dragons, elves, done well Real characters, with flaws and all. Humor, esp. sarcastic humor "Superpowered" heroes who struggle with the responsibility that comes with that power. (think superman, spiderman...) A "good" person facing a morally ambiguous decision, deciding between something bad or something worse. Fantasy creatures with a new twist. Any fantasy race that is so detailed and well done, I believe it. A logical, self-consistent magical system. characters occasionally die for their beliefs, even the ones we love strong, independent characters, both male and female
Turn Offs: dragons, elves, done badly simple to perform, incredibly powerful magic, that no one uses during key plot points. (Think the time-turner in HP, book 3) heroes that do absolutely no wrong characters without motivations. predictable plotlines / ripoffs no hero's life is ever in danger, because they never die weak, whiny characters, male or female
Posted by dienstag (Member # 5696) on :
Turn ons: -dark humor, dry humor, and especially wit -great dialogue -villains that you can relate to -character driven stories where the plot does not suffer because of it -complicated characters with multiple conflicts and multiple motivations -good anti-hero or fallen hero -vampires, when well done (Ex. Anne Rice) -pirates who do more than mindlessly swab the deck -a character whose arrogance tends to get him into trouble (Ex. Jack Sparrow)
Turn offs: -overly descriptive scenes (the kind where the author describes a house and its surroundings for pages and pages) -needless sex -no explanation as to why or how something is happening (mostly in horror) -no rules (mostly for stories involving magic) -things that are clearly plot devices and nothing more -worlds where anything can happen because of magic -damsels in distress -were-anythings excepts werewolves
Posted by arriki (Member # 3079) on :
I love the country hick and the city slicker type stories. Especially ones involving humans and aliens.
Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :
Turn off: Time travel.
Admittedly, I've liked several movies with time travel: Star Trek's 4 and First Contact, Back to the Future, Harry Potter 3, for example. But it still bothers me. If time travel is possible, wouldn't there be a constant struggle to change time to how you want it. There would be no firm timeline. If the good guy wins, all the bad guy has to do is go back and stop him. And then when the good guy loses, he can go back and change it. Time is linear. Let's leave it that way.
Posted by darklight (Member # 5213) on :
I completely agree with you, RMatthewWare regards time travel and like you, also enjoy most of the movies you mention and some more, however, it's not something I would go out of my way to read, nor would write it myself. I also don't like the alternate universe idea, yet am writing a YA novel that concerns exactly that. Go figure.
Posted by tigertinite (Member # 4803) on :
I'm not too picky about what I read, but I do have some standards
My turn ons: • Villains who are actual threats to the heroes • Heroes who are actual threats to the villains • Believable characters, with real flaws • Great worlds that you can get lost in (whether you want to move there or not. . .) • Superheroes (I am a geek and proud of it) • Great original story (Or a good twist on an overdone one) • Irony and humor
My turn offs • Too much of anything • Predictable plots • Anything that does not serve any purpose • Descriptive scenes that continue for more than one page • Bad writing • Any book that takes itself too seriously (characters that do so are often humorous)
Posted by I am destiny on :
I printed this off, and with a little hindsight I higlighted everything my books have that is on the list good and bad. Happily I had mostly good (on's). I was surprised that dragons made the on and off list so frequently, as a dragon fan I didn't think that some people didn't like them. My MC has a pet shoulder dragon that doesnt show up untill the fourth book.
Anyways thanks for the list you really helped me and gave me some confidence that my writing is where it should be. It is interesting to see into your heads a little.
~Destiny
Posted by Marzo (Member # 5495) on :
Here's my (belated) general list. There may be exceptions to any of these points, but I find these ons and offs generally hold true.
Ons:
Characters who use brains more than brawn
Transgressional characters
Many of the 'punks': Mannerpunk, steampunk, cyberpunk, biopunk
Psionics
Nanotechnology
Historical fantasy
Wuxia
Dark fantasy
Low fantasy
Science fantasy
'Sword and planet' fiction
'Dying earth' fiction
Soft sci-fi
Social sci-fi
Superhero fantasy
Caper stories
Bildungsroman & Kunstlerroman
Edisonade fiction
Culture conflict/shock themes
Colonization and/or industrialization themes
Difficult to work with magic, if any
Offs:
Elfpunk (elves/faeries in urban settings)
Celtic fantasy
High fantasy
Comic fantasy
Modern fantasy
Mythpunk
Romantic fantasy
Battlefield fantasy
Hard sci-fi
Military sci-fi
'Tough guy/girl' characters
Chick lit, or elements thereof
Young characters behaving perpetually immaturely/angrily
Simplified worldbuilding
Barbarian/ranger types
Medievalism
Posted by SaucyJim (Member # 7110) on :
Turn ons: ~accurate military sci-fi ~hard sci-fi ~medium sci-fi (being: questionable scientific ideas but presented in such a way as to be considered consistent with the rest of the world) ~space opera ~robots ~realistic dialogue ~Max Brooks ~long walks... discussing sci-fi ~technopunk ~steampunk ~magic as an arcane, misunderstood force (i.e. George Martin)
Turn Offs: ~"ye olde" dialogue ~overuse of magic ~vampires ~war-torn dystopias (just because they've been done to death) ~bad titles ("Future War" is getting rave reviews, but I'll probably never read it) ~plot-protected characters ~way-too-serious names ~over-the-top-use-of-hyphens ~soft sci-fi (being: scientific principles either work or don't work based on the whim of the author [example: weightlessness on board a ship, but sound carries in space]) ~character is secretly/unknowingly the rightful heir to a throne (some exceptions, Tolkien primarily) ~mystical races (tend to be riddled with cliches; exception: Terry Pratchett)
I'll probably be heavily editing this list as I go along in life, coming back and adding and changing stuff.
