This is topic On first 13s in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/writers/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004416

Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :
 
There's something I've noticed about the first 13 lines being posted in the other forum:

If any of them try to introduce any explicitly sci-fi terms anywhere but the end of those first 13, I get immediately put-off.

In my opinion, one should be let gradually into this new world you're creating, not pushed in head-first. Introduce us to the world by showing us what's the same first, and slowly pull back so that when we see the new world you're creating for is we can see it in a much more impressive and dramatic way.

For example, aside from the first little teaser of what's to come, the opening of the Matrix focuses on the boring and familiar life of a hacker. It takes a while for all the strange and subtle hints to peak through and for Neo to follow the white rabbit into the real world.

Not only does this build suspense, but it also keeps us from feeling alienated. You have to let us accept the characters first before we can accept the situation.

Thoughts?
 


Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :
 
I had posted something similar earlier, arguing that in most cases, a book, or even a short story, would have some context allowing the reader to know the genre and establish certain expectations.

I can wait for world-building, I can wait for some explanations. But I still need to know what the characters are doing, at the very least in the most physical sense. However, i think it gets harder to hook people if you hold off on the speculative element for too long. Ideally, it would be integrated throughout, and you want to tease a bit of it in the beginning to expand later on. But you always have to balance it with clarity.

Even the Matrix, if I remember correctly, starts off with Trinity fighting off the agents... so at least there's hint of some other-worldliness.

[This message has been edited by annepin (edited November 28, 2007).]
 


Posted by KPKilburn (Member # 6876) on :
 
I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm going to say it anyway. I'm not sold on the First 13. While it may be true that if you don't hook the reader in those first 13 lines you may not get published, it seems like it's just an obscure concept that publishers have adopted and follow even if it doesn't make sense.

The publisher's philosophy of "You've gotta hook me in the first 13 or I'm not reading any further because I'm that important." is very arrogant. Unfortunately, it seems to be one of the rules you have to play by or else you lose. Because it's something they had to go through, they now impose it on others regardless of how illogical it is.

I enjoy reading Dean Koontz, but some of his books in my opinion don't have a "hook" in the first 13. The books were great after that and I'm very forgiving - about 3-4 pages - of not having a hook that early. I can be interested in something without having to be "hooked".

I personally like a little background and I think some stories deserve a good setup initially rather than a hook, even if it takes several pages. I usually buy a book based on reviews and what the back cover says. I may scan the first few pages, but I'm looking more for the impossible-to-pronounce fantasy names or anything that's going to annoy rather than a hook.

Just my opinion on the whole First 13 thing.

[This message has been edited by KPKilburn (edited November 28, 2007).]
 


Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :
 
It's not arrogance. These editors just don't have the time. They get way more submissions than they could possibly read in any detail, so if they don't find it interesting (not if they don't find a hook) in the first 13 then there's no sense in wasting more time...

[This message has been edited by ArCHeR (edited November 29, 2007).]
 


Posted by KPKilburn (Member # 6876) on :
 
quote:
...if they don't find it interesting (not if they don't find a hook) in the first 13 then there's no sense in wasting more time.

What's the difference between "hook" and "interesting"?
 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
You might need to hook an editor (or first reader) with the first thirteen, but, really, to the guy in the bookstore looking at your book and wondering if it's worth buying, or the guy thumbing through the magazine wondering if your story is worth reading, they don't matter. He'll look at other things before them. I can't recall ever doing so myself.
 
Posted by luapc (Member # 2878) on :
 
Robert has it right. The first 13 isn't about the readers, it's about the slush readers and editors when trying for publication. Final readers that buy the book or magazine, will give novels a try based simply on the blurb on a dust jacket, while readers of shorts usually buy the book for its general content, not that of one story.

The first 13 is used because it's usually what fits on the first page of a submitted manuscript to a publisher or an agent, and often, all they read before rejecting it. If they read past it, the chance for acceptance goes up dramatically.

But this applies more to short stories than to novels. While the first page for short stories is the rule, for novels it's more like two or three pages worth (if the writing is good and professional), and you definitely don't want to go an entire chapter without something of interest. Still, even with more pages, it doesn't hurt to interest a first reader right up front with at least a hint of a promise in the first 13, because that's what an opening is, a promise to the reader.

In the publishing world of today, with the Internet and computers, it is very easy for a person to attempt to write for publication. Because of that, the number of submissions publishers and agents receive is enormous. Along with that is the increase in the number of submissions that don't meet the minimum requirements for submissions. Because of that, first readers at these places often don't go past that magical first page, so you better get that one right.

[This message has been edited by luapc (edited November 29, 2007).]
 


Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :
 
I don't believe in any kind of hard first 13 rules, I think, as writers, we overstate their importance. And we start cramming too much into them and they end up overcooked.

It is important in almost every case to establish point of view, beyond that there are no solid rules, in my opinion.
 


Posted by Wolfe_boy (Member # 5456) on :
 
Now might be an opportune time to reinsert these famous threads for public consumption once again....

"Why only 13 Lines?"

"Why the problem with the 1st 13 isn't that it's too short"

"Just tell me"

"Ideal first 13"

Overcooked is a bad thirteen. Stuffed full to bursting is a bad thirteen. In neither of those instances would you have succeeded in crafting a good first thirteen. It is a fine line to walk, between good and bad, but it is a necessary one, or at least a helpful one for writers who already have a part of the deck stacked against them. If you're an unknown, and have limited writing credits, why allow yourself to have a sub-standard first thirteen? Why give the slush editor more reason to reject your stuff? Fighting against the idea of a solid first thirteen doesn't lessen its importance.

Jayson Merryfield

[This message has been edited by Wolfe_boy (edited November 29, 2007).]
 


Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :
 
Wow, a lot of stuff to think about. The difficulty seems to be that while everyone agrees there should be a hook, what actually hooks a reader is entirely up in the air.

I thought of an exercise that might be educational, and possibly even fun. Every week I'll post 13 lines from some published story (we can do that without violating copyright law, right?), and then we can let 'er rip. I'm curious how many of us are actually hooked by whatever hook the editor found (and granted, many are disgruntled with recent fiction).

I won't limit selections to those I like; I'll select something by random. I'll go far and wide for these, too, not limiting myself to any genre, magazine, or time period.

I hope others will join in the critiquing. I've long thought the "published hooks" section was underused.
 


Posted by KStar (Member # 4968) on :
 
That should be interesting.
 
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 2067) on :
 
As long as none of them start with, "In my younger and more vulnerable years..."

And my original point was not that there shouldn't be a hook in the first 13, but that there shouldn't be too strange and/or cliche'd sci-fi jargon. I think that it alienates the reader too much, unless of course it's a comedic piece.

[This message has been edited by ArCHeR (edited November 29, 2007).]
 


Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
 
It wouldn't violate copyright law as long as you attributed it.


As to the Scifi bit, I prefer to know what kind of world I'm looking at right away. It's important to know just what can happen. I don't enjoy looking at a 'normal' world for a few pages and then suddenly realizing that there are rampaging robot monkey ninjas all over the place. (Unless the character experiences the realization as soon as I do.) I agree though that there shouldn't be any un-defined jargon right up front, you don't yet trust the author to define it later.
 


Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :
 
My opinion is that if you have an interesting story then the hook will be present automatically. The reader will get a taste of the atmosphere of the story. But when we focus too much on making the hook, it's usually not very good. It's like we lose some of the art by thinking about the story's exposition too scientifically. And the art is what draws readers in the first place.

I say just write what feels right, write the story. Edit out errors, typos, bad grammar, contradictions. But be true to the story.
 




Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2