Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Tips to make Successful use of Hatrack

This is topic Tips to make Successful use of Hatrack in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Wolfe_boy (Member # 5456) on :

I've been around a while... not nearly so long as some, but a while. I've made some excellent use of Hatrack and my fellow writers, and I think I've witnessed some of the same. I've also wasted a fair bit of time, and watched others do similarly, to the point of reducing the usefulness of Hatrack because we have clouded our minds with so much stuff that is unrelated to the reason we are here, that being writing. So, I decided to lay out a few tips that, in my opinion, will allow you to get the greatest amount of value out of Hatrack; especially for those who are new or struggling valiantly to want to stay and improve their writing.

1. Post your stories. Nothing is quite as instructive as seeing people's comments on your writing. Take what they say and continue to work on your stuff, don't disregard it out of hand.

2. Learn which critiquers to really listen closely to, and which to listen less closely to. Everyone has an opinion, and every opinion is valid, but not all are as helpful as others, and it can be discouraging to get all sorts of criticisms coming at you from all different quarters. Learn to pick and choose between critiques, and you'll start to hear certain voices that will be more helpful to you.

3. Critique! Nothing is more invaluable than the opportunity to critique other people's work - you'll learn what works and what doesn't much more quickly while critiquing than you will writing and asking for critiques constantly, because you will run into issues you never thought about before. It's a great opportunity to think constructively about the nuts and bolts of writing (grammar, punctuation, etc.) and the greater scope of the work too (sensical ideas, good word flow, correct images, themes, etc.)

4. Be personable, but don't take things personally. We all have our own personalities, and the mix of them all is what makes online groups like this so amazing. Taking another person's comments too personally, though, far too often leads to hurt feelings or arguments, to the detriment of the overall community. When you feel about to argue with another person out of spite or anger, either ignore them, or simply thank them for their contribution to the discussion and leave it at that.

5. Remember that we are all aspiring writers here, working together at improving. If you need to be, be blunt with your critiques and be clear with your opinions, but do be fair and do not be hurtful. Sarcasm is a dangerous instrument - use it sparingly if at all, and in good humor if you can manage it. Arguing is counter-productive - take it off the forums if you're feeling heated or you notice either you or your co-arguer is beginning to TYPE ALL IN CAPS. Keep the non-writing discussions/comments to a minimum - politics, religion, and the like are great but generally divisive, and rarely have a lot to do with the craft of writing.

Jayson Merryfield

Posted by Igwiz (Member # 6867) on :

Thank you, Jayson. I have been guilty of engaging in several, if not all, of the behaviors that you identify as "time wasting." That is silly.

I also strongly concur with most of the opinions in the "On first 13's" discussion. In a way, I'd rather say, "I've got a story, 3400 words, about an elf that falls in love with a dwarf, and the decisions he is forced to make in deciding if he should leave the forest for the sake of his love..." Who wants to read it and tell me how it is?

In a way, it would be more like a back-cover blurb than a first 13. Or we could include both. In a way, we seem to discount the libretto in the first 13 approach. Then we can say, "I'm ready for readers," or "I want feedback on this WIP" and see who will read. Because I think that the critiques I have received have been very valuable, and are the main reason I joined Hatrack.

That's my nickel....

[This message has been edited by Igwiz (edited December 05, 2007).]

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

I don't like the practice of posting the first 13 lines. It turns into (and I realize this wasn't the original intent) an over emphasis on that portion of the manuscript. I don't post my stories and since I don't--I also don't critique.

I feel kind of bad about this because I believe (rightly or wrongly) that I am a good critiquer. But I won't critique 13 lines so... I don't know.

I am as bad as anyone as we all know about getting into arguments. It is difficult to feel that someone is attacking or or twisting our words and not respond, but that's going to happen with our writing as well so we'd better get used to it. LOL I am going to take your advise in the future about simply ignoring disputes. I SWEAR. Puts right hand on LotR. Never again.

Edit: If anyone ever wants a crit I am quite open to being asked. I won't generally do one without being asked.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 05, 2007).]

Posted by annepin (Member # 5952) on :

I'm going to add...

Read other people's critiques of a piece that isn't yours. It helps to know how other people when reading someone else's piece.

Posted by wrenbird (Member # 3245) on :

quote:
Puts right hand on LotR.

LOL

I too am guilty of not posting or critting as much. I should because I really enjoy it. When I first joined Hatrack I only would go to the Fragments and Feedback. Then, one day, I discovered how fun it was to trawl the Open Discussions. Not quite as contructive a use of time. Ah well.

[This message has been edited by wrenbird (edited December 05, 2007).]

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

quote:
2. Learn which critiquers to really listen closely to, and which to listen less closely to.

Exactly. Thats one of the first lessons I learned here--and probably why no one listens to me anymore

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

quote:
Arguing is counter-productive - take it off the forums if you're feeling heated or you notice either you or your co-arguer is beginning to TYPE ALL IN CAPS.

This will probably be controversial, but my feeling is that we're writers and thus, should be able to express our feelings without resorting to cheap tricks like ALL CAPS. Would you send your publisher a manuscript with all caps? Try to be a good enough writer that you can convey your thoughts and emotions with words alone.

Oh, and don't argue.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

I'm going to speak against what I just said although I intend for myself to stick to it. But we are passionate artists here. There will be arguments. Telling people to never to argue is like telling water to not run downhill. It ain't gonna happen.

There comes a point when arguments become flaming and counterproductive. But when it's friendly debate it simply shows who we are. Passion is good. I would hate to see Hatrack become barren and passionless.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 05, 2007).]

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

There is a difference, but I thought it was pretty clear which one he meant by his reference to all caps.

Posted by TheOnceandFutureMe on :

I think discussions (ok, arguments) about writing are fine. We all have different opinions on craft, story structure, POV, published literature. I don't think arguments about religion, victorian sex, and whatever other mess we've managed to step in recently are appropriate arguments for this forum.

Stop trolling, stop biting the line, and start posting really awesome work.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

I don't post stories here. I'm not going to post stories here. End of that topic.

Edit: When people write about Victorian sex or the Victorian era it's certainly appropriate to discuss, including the grim side of it.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 05, 2007).]

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

TheOnceandFutureMe, I was thinking earlier today that the writing effort put into certain recent brabbling could have been used to produce some good literature instead. By the same token, the time I spent reading such text could have been spent honing my writing skill, instead. I should know better.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

lehollis, I think you're complaining about other people making negative posts. You might not want to fall into the same pattern. Just a thought.

By the way, I got 6,000 words written yesterday.

Whoever the fault lay with for previous argument, the solution isn't to keep rehashing and rehashing. Let's move on, for heaven's sake.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 05, 2007).]

Posted by lehollis (Member # 2883) on :

JeanneT, you're wrong. That isn't what I am doing. My post delineated my realization that reading argument-threads is a waste of my time. The reference to what might have been done instead was to show the process in my thinking and how I reached that conclusion.

My intent in doing so was to agree with, and add to, the comments by the original poster and TheOnceandFutureMe. That is a discussion on how to best use Hatrack, which I consider to be relevant to writing.

(If you want to see my commentary about other people making negative posts, you can go to that other thread. Those posts I made were intended as such. Not the one made in this thread. I said all I felt a need to say there.)

Sadly, this thread is now off limits to me. I refuse to be drawn into one of your arguments, so I will not return here.

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

quote:
This will probably be controversial, but my feeling is that we're writers and thus, should be able to express our feelings without resorting to cheap tricks like ALL CAPS.

I haven't figured out how to italicize or bold in this forum, so I use caps for emphasis. I know internet etiquette says that using caps is yelling. For me, here, it's not. On my manuscript I just hit the bold or italics button and move on.

quote:
I don't like the practice of posting the first 13 lines. It turns into (and I realize this wasn't the original intent) an over emphasis on that portion of the manuscript. I don't post my stories and since I don't--I also don't critique.

The same reason I don't post first 13. There are too many that want a whole story in the first 13. They want plot, genre, POV, MC, and a hook in the first 13. Before you know it, you've got an info dump. And I know the point of the first 13 is to get people to agree to read your full story, but I don't think I got any offers for that. Maybe they just weren't that good, but I think most people don't want to crit past the first 13. So I don't waste my time. I have my wife and a few friends that will go over my work. If I was really into critting, I'd go to another writer's forum where you can post your full manuscript and let anyone who wants to crit do it.

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

quote:
My post delineated my realization that reading argument-threads is a waste of my time.

That's why I hate when good threads devolve into arguments. People give up on them and some good insight is lost. I would suggest more moderators to control things, but I think KDW is much more patient than I. I also think had I been in charge, some of my own posts would have gotten deleted by myself. Such a contradiction in logic would probably make my head explode, and no one wants that. Hopefully.

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

quote:
And I know the point of the first 13 is to get people to agree to read your full story, but I don't think I got any offers for that.

If you ask for people to read the whole thing in the intro you might get a few bites.

Personally I stay away from frag and feed most of the time because it uses so much time, I get in there and I spend hours reading and criting. I just can't help myself.

I also think it's funny that we are having an argument about arguments. It's like a meta-argument. Wow.

Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :

Well, there is something amusing about threadjacking to argue about arguing about threadjacking. *head spins*

I am not saying that flaming (such as has gone on and I'm admitting I haven't helped) and threadjacking is good. But if you squash disagreements too fast (and I think this is Kathleen's concern) then you also squash legitimate debate that is helpful to writers. Sometimes we need to disagree and exchange opinions. The trick is to not let it get out of hand.

We're a passionate bunch.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 05, 2007).]

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

Jayson, you have a keen little guide there. You've got to remember a couple of other points, too.

1) Nobody's perfect. Everyone has an off day. You (more often I) can be trying to elaborate on something that strikes you wrong--or something you've come to believe--and seem condescending, matter-of-factly, or just rude.

When I first got addicted to these boards, I critiqued everything I could in hopes of learning everything I could. This led to a few arguments--like one with JeanneT--because I made critiques when my eyes were tired, or I had skimmed, or I had reaad so many that day that I was mixing them up. Sometimes, you think you know something well enough to butt-heads, but you learn different.

2) Learn what sujects to ignore. My mother always said: "One rule to cut down arguments is never talk about religion or politics." How right she was.

I think I'm most guilty of sarcasm, because I have a naturally sarcastic nature. It's usually a good point of my personality, however not in print.

3) When it's eating your time, it profits you nothing. If you're learning, apply it. The more you dig into your art, the less time you'll spend on insignifcant irritants.

4) Always try to help. Anyone can destroy, it takes skill to help build.

quote:

haven't figured out how to italicize or bold in this forum, so I use caps for emphasis.

Matt, when you type into the reply box, look over to the side you'll see a clickable *UBB Code is ON. It's unerneath of the words: Your Reply:. That will give you all the information you need.

Posted by RMatthewWare (Member # 4831) on :

Oh, I see.