Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Story from a song. OK or not?

This is topic Story from a song. OK or not? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

I have a story idea based on a famous song. While I have no plans to name the song it would be fairly apparent which song it is if you read the story with that in mind. My stroy is more an explaination of the events that inspired the song, so it ends with the MC talking to the songwriter in a bar...

Is this a copywrite breach?

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I wsa with you until the end....I'm not at all sure about talking to the songwriter in a bar, mostly because I think it's cheesy.

Other than that, you can draw inspiration from many sources. Your story will not be exactly like the song, even if we could imagine it with the song in mind. I think you're fine.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I'm inclined to go along with Christine about how cheesy talking-to-the-songwriter is...if you can think of another way, try to do that.

On being inspired by a song...I recall a story by Joan D. Vinge that, I gathered from the intro in the collection, was inspired in part by the song "Brandy (You're a Fine Girl)" by the Looking Glass. (The song was already an old favorite with me when I read that.) Likely there are others, though I can't think of any.

You're probably aware that quoting from the song, at least for commercially published writing, would involve getting permission and possibly paying a fee. (You could probably get away with just naming the song title.) If you carry on without naming song or lyrics or artist or songwriter, you'll be okay.

Posted by Tricia V (Member # 6324) on :

You can use up to 2 line quotes of the song and the title, and name the songwriter, but making the songwriter a character is probably going too far.

P.S. The rest of the story can be about things that people familiar with the song might know of. But until you are familiar with the boundary between inspiration and plagiarism, it might be a good idea to put this story on a back burner.

[This message has been edited by Tricia V (edited January 08, 2008).]

Posted by Tricia V (Member # 6324) on :

My father-in-law asked what "I drove the chevy to the levy but the levy was dry" was all about the other day. Sometimes there's too many answers.

Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

I won't quote directly from the song although I was planning to use lines from the song (not quoted) to define certain bits of the story e.g.

The bells jingled as Santa jammed on the handbrake and the sleigh swung round spraying snow on the elves.
"Y'know," he said, laughing, "I hadn't realized how much fun it is to ride a one horse open sleigh."

Obviously the above is only an example and my story will be significantly longer (5000 words or so), so references will be far more camoflaged.

Regarding talking to the songwriter at the end and the idea it is cheesy. I hadn't planned on naming him but just referencing that the guy was an unnamed musician who was prepared to listen to my MC's story after he escapes from something terrible.

A sort of:

"Have a drink mate, you look real shakey. What happened?" Musician guy turns and shouts at some guys strumming on guitars, "Hey, you guys shut up with those guitars--we can practice later..."

...reader fills in the rest. Still cheesy?

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

My understanding of copyright is that if you quote too much of the song, you need permission.

I think the answer to your question about being cheesy depends on the song, the song-writer and of course the story--which of course you aren't going to reveal.

But for example, if Stephen Sondheim ("Send in the Clowns") turned up at a circus on Mars in the twenty-second century, that could be interesting. On the other hand, Lennon and McCartney in a 60s Hamburg bar would be difficult to do without brieing cheddary.

You might also need to consider libel laws:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A1183394

Basically, you can't mistakenly or untruthfully depict the song-writer as one of poor repute. Even if the writer isn't named, you might not avoid libel:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3065/is_v14/ai_3756225

But, skadder, you wouldn't be that nasty--would you? ;-)

Pat

[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited January 08, 2008).]

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I'm still voting cheesy, but if the rest of the story is good enough, I probably won't flog you.

I agree that quoting too much of the song may get hairy in terms of copyright. Inspired by, based on, following the same basic storyline, etc. would be fine but if you quote any of it, I wouldn't do more than a line or two before you may be in trouble.

Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

quote:
Stephen Sondheim ("Send in the Clowns") turned up at a circus on Mars in the twenty-second century...

Damn, I thought it was such an original idea...although I was planning a crack squad of cyber-ninja clowns.

"Okay, these villians are too tough for SWAT. Bobo, your team has a green-light--send in the clowns."

Not a bad idea...

Thanks Pat for the links.

Adam

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

You might have a whole new genre here--song fiction.

Pat

Posted by debhoag (Member # 5493) on :

does anybody besides me remember the episode of quantum leap in which the character made all this effort to change whatever needed to be changed so he could leap again, and at the very end of the edisode, the goofball farm hand was sitting on the porch, twidling his guitar, and singing a song he had written about his pig? "Piggy soue, piggy soue,pretty pretty pretty pretty piggy soue". The leap guy looks at him in disbelief, says, "gee buddy, what if you made that "peggy sue?" and the leap happened. One of my all time favorite bizarro twists on time travel.

and then, of course, there was the back to the future scene in which McFly taught rock and roll to chuck berry. Is your character meeting with the writer to tell him the story that ends up inspiring the song? And, perhaps more importantly, is the song-writer still alive?

[This message has been edited by debhoag (edited January 08, 2008).]

Posted by Tricia V (Member # 6324) on :

Now that I think about it, there was a bibilography type thing crediting all the songs cited in Breathing Lessons.

Posted by skadder (Member # 6757) on :

My story ends when this guy drags himself into a bar in a terrible state. He is helped to a stool and gets a whiskey bought for him by, they ask what has happened to him. (Suggestion that the listener is a musician--he is not named) The MC then takes a deep breath....story ends.

I want the story to read as proper story, but if you are switched and know the song (and I bet you will) you may pick up the clues during the story, but equally you may sail through the story unaware of the references.

The song acts like a skeleton upon which I have fleshed out a story, there are elements in the story that are definitely not in the song...

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

You can't copyright an idea. So, as long as you don't use the song's lyrics verbatim, copyright shouldn't be an issue.
Legally: Okay.

As for premise:

In my opinion, you may want to add events to the framework, so that the "commemorative song" doesn't get all of the information into it, just what the lyricist attributes worthy. I'm thinking like Bob Dylan's The Hurricane: he didn't get it all, just flavored the lyrics with what he wanted the public to hear. And the story, for that song, had not yet concluded.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

Oh, if the song's in the public domain---and a lot of well-known ones are---you can use it to beat the band.

Or if you're writing Internet Fan Fiction and already violating one copyright, why not go right ahead and violate some more?

On Sondheim...in the 1980s remake of "To Be or Not To Be" with Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft, one minor character was named Sondheim and at one point Mel Brooks shouted, "Sondheim! Send in the clowns!" Whether they obtained permission or not, I don't know...

On Dylan's "Hurricane"...really, I thought it was a new song in the old tradition of songs like "The Wreck of the Old 97" or "The Sinking of the Titanic." (Actually I thought it was one of Dylan's best and most accessable, though I know now a lot of it was off the facts.)

Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :

I wasn't commenting on Dylan's style, Robert, I was more using The Hurricane as an example of a storytelling song's content.

I think what I was trying to show was the difference between Dylan and Homer--as far as lyrics or poetry. (Homer being the extreme in including everything.)

Ah, well...

Posted by supraturtle (Member # 1518) on :

It's all in interpretation. Most 'well known' songs got that way because they are marketed and filtered for general consumption. They also will already have a billion odes and quite possibly the artist themselves have interpreted other media from the idea.
'November Rain' by Guns'n'Roses: kinda the opposite, but an example.
'Ryme of the Ancient Mariner.'
I think the world expects less of music than they do of print: therefore it's really 'cool' if a song depicts a story, but the 'cheese factor' as Christine says is pretty hard to get over if you write a passage based on a song.
I do set themes by listening to music and sometimes pasting the lyrics at the top of my work, but I ALWAYS erase them lyrics before anyone else sees it.

Posted by KStar (Member # 4968) on :

I once read a story about a Rolling Stones song, it was a published book and it was very obviously about the song "You Can't Always Get What You Want".

My novel that I'm cleaning up right now is about a song. I never quote it, but if you knew the song, you would know that my book was about it.

Posted by supraturtle (Member # 1518) on :

"My novel that I'm cleaning up right now is about a song. I never quote it, but if you knew the song, you would know that my book was about it."

Correctamondo!

Posted by smncameron (Member # 7392) on :

I've always wanted to write a novel inspired by the Bowie song "The Man Who Sold the World", but I haven't really hammered out any of the details. Deriving inspiration is not copy-right infringement, but featuring the songwriter is certainly cheesey.