This is topic font and other word prosser things in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


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Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
sorry i had a brain fart for the word i am looking for

what type of font, parrigraph, etc do you use when you summit a work?
all i have writen has been Times New Roman, font size 12, singel spaced, etc.

what do publishers look for if any at all relating to the typing?

RFW2nd
 


Posted by Patrick James (Member # 7847) on :
 
I am new to this myself so if I mislead at all I would not mind being corrected by someone who has more knowledge in the area.

Different publishers have different guidelines, which I am sure you know. But all seem to agree that font size 12(for PC, 14 for Mac) in Courier or Roman Times is fine. I understand that some may prefer Courier as it has regulated letter size, making it easier for an editor to count the total words in the story.

They want the manuscript double-space so they can write in corrections, of each sentence if neccessary. And a clear one inch margin around all the typeing to write instructions to the typesetter. They like a cover letter but it doesn't seem to be necessary on short stories.

They want indented paragraphs, something like three fourths of a centemeter. Or if you leave a space between each paragraph, as in a magazine style, no identation is necessary. In fact it is discouraged.

Hmmm. I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I'm sure others will add to this.
 


Posted by Tiergan (Member # 7852) on :
 
I belive Patrick James did well there.

The only thing I would add is, wherever you decide to submit, wheter it be a magazine, publisher or agent, check their specific guidelines, if they have them--follow them. It shows you are not just blanketing the market, but that you have done your homework and you are professional.


 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
Courier

Courier

Courier

Courier
 


Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :
 
I use Times New Roman, 12 point, double-spaced.
 
Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :
 
(And Elmer's Glue and lots of glitter. Agents love that).
 
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
The problem with Times New Roman is that it is not mono-spaced, and as Patrick James said,
quote:
I understand that some may prefer Courier as it has regulated letter size, making it easier for an editor to count the total words in the story.

If you send something online, it isn't as crucial, but if you are sending hard copy by regular mail, you really should use 12-point courier.
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
I was recently the recipient of an angry half hour lecture from an editor on why I was a bad and evil person for having used Times Roman--that editors don't demand Courier for the fun of it OR to make it easier to count words.

They do hand markup for sending the manuscript to typesetting. He said, at length, that the letters of TNR are too close together for him to do markup.

I assured him that I hadn't murdered anyone or even kicked any puppies lately. He seemed to feel that using TNR was worse than either.

http://www.sfwriter.com/mschklst.htm

That gives a very standard and acceptable formatting guideline. It also gives a link to a darker Courier--which I can't seem to get to work on my computer. But some people find it less obnoxious than the regular Courier.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited April 04, 2008).]
 


Posted by JamieFord (Member # 3112) on :
 
My editor was fine with TNR. Tastes vary, I guess.
 
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
I have no doubt at all that tastes vary.

I think this one was a particularly grumpy editor but it might not be bad to know there are a few of those out there. LOL

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited April 05, 2008).]
 


Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
WOW i didnt know there was that much involved, i always thought think it up, type it up, print it out, sind it in.

Tango Mike

RFW2nd

PS: format was the word i was lookng for.

[This message has been edited by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (edited April 05, 2008).]
 


Posted by Patrick James (Member # 7847) on :
 
Editors are NOT adverse to murderer OR puppy kicking.
Which is why you won't find any of THEM in heaven. Their commandments read as follows:

Thou shalt not type in funny fonts. (courier is nice. And YES, TNR is a funny font!!)

Thy Manuscripts shalt be sent in double-paced. (Or I shall rip them up chew on them and jump up and down on them until I can think of something MORE nasty to do.)

Thou shalt print on one side of the paper only. (This is a worse mistake than the previous and will see you and your works burning in the fires of anonymity forever.)

Thou shalt not steal another's work, or send me previously published work, Even your own, unless I expressly demand it.

Thou shalt not send your manuscripts to any editor before me (simultaneous submissions) lest i smite you where yee stand.

Thou shalt not use funny colors. Black and white only!

Thou shalt not bind your manuscripts in any way. Not even paperclips!

Thou shall never, not ever, use ALL CAPS. For any reason. (Unless I suggest it. Then it is a good idea.)

(Help me out here. I'm runnin' out!)

I was feeling a little funny when I typed this one. I hope no one is offended.

Edited first commandment.

[This message has been edited by Patrick James (edited April 09, 2008).]
 


Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
why would you kick a puppy in the first place?
i understand ending a human but kicking a puppy.

so is there a holy bible of writing? or is that your next work?

RFW2nd
 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
Damned if I can see any objection to Times New Roman---any reasonable objection in printed-out and mailed-in submissions, that is. E-submissions have pecularities of their own. Where's the last couple of times we debated this issue?
 
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
Actually that's backwards, Robert. In e-submissions they don't much care about fonts because they can change them with a click AND they generally don't do hand markups on them. The file goes to the typesetter.

In printed submissions, the editor almost certainly does hand markups. That means they dislike TNR which prints letters and words closer together and they have no way of changing it.

LOL I never thought it made much difference (and I suspect for most editors it doesn't). But some editors get excited about the darnedest things.

Let me add to the editorial commandment list started above:

If I find your italics are actually in italics instead of underlined I will rend the ms into tiny shreds and feed it to my office viper since everyone knows my typesetter is always too soused to figure out that something printed in italics is intended to be (gasp) italics.

(The drunk typesetters is an old cliche--no personal insult intended to any typesetters. No hate mail please. )

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited April 05, 2008).]
 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
I remember when editors wouldn't read dot-matrix printouts---at least they were hard to read. Times New Roman isn't.

And I figure I could provide someone with a file---after acceptance, or even on request without acceptance.

I've seen some of the damnedest typographical errors, brought about solely because of setting the item directly from a file. I do what I can---but I'll risk further damnation if I prove willing to take responsibility for a problem on somebody else's end of the process.

(And of course italics are supposed to be represented by underlining.)
 


Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
may i ask what is a dot-matrix print out?

and why would a typesetter be described as drunk? i dont quite understand that.

RFW2nd
 


Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :
 
For those too young to remember the old days of printing, a dot matrix is exactly what it sounds like. A matrix of 9x9 pins (early days) and 24 pins (a few years later) that would print by striking the paper through a ribbon (much like an old typewriter) but it used the matrix to print out characters. They are still in use today for places that use multi copied pre-carboned paper.

I suspect you might have been joking about not knowing what a dot matrix printout is, but I just couldn't resist showing a bit of age and fond memories of figuring out how to make them print something other than straight characters and put in pretty lines and simple graphics.

I still say before you print it, check what the publisher wants. What difference does it make if you print it in courier new instead of Times New Roman? If all you are doing is printing it for submission, you don't have to read it over again (assuming you haven't made any recent changes). Publishing is a business, and if you want a publisher to pay you to have your story printed, then don't whine about what they want, and take a couple minutes and format it the way they want.


 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
And as for why typsetters would be described as drunken--I suppose for the same reason newspaper reporters might be. It's a long-standing generalization and was, of course, nothing more than a joke on my part but the assumption would explain why editors are still convinced that typesetters can't recognize italics when they see it. Of course, that formatting rule goes back to the typewriter days when you couldn't put something in italics and had to mark it with an underscore.

I have to agree with the comment on why not give editors what they want? It's not like we have to work in the font we print and submit in. It's as easy as select all and format-font. I have started submitting in Courier unless I know that TNR is acceptable in which case I submit in that. Makes no nevermind to me. *laughs*
 


Posted by Patrick James (Member # 7847) on :
 
I think why they are worried that italics might not be spotted with short words like 'he' or 'is' or 'if'. You would hardly ever notice a two letter word being italisized. And it may be important to conveying the actual meaning of your sentence.

If your character says something like: "He didnt light the fire."
Unitalized it is simpley an informative statement. Italisize 'he' and it becomes an acusation.


Sorry I couldn't of a better example.
 


Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
the printers that used linked paper and made a lot of noise?
i have a lazer jet back in Ft. Riley storage used it only 3 times.

and is it still posible to find ribben for typewriters? i have a old 1953 (forgot moddel) one in VA that i use to use but now is in storage due to no ribben and need of a good cleaning.

HAHA the drunken Reporter. makes sence in a strange way.

RFW2nd

 


Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :
 
quote:
the printers that used linked paper and made a lot of noise?

The very same. You know, they haven't really disappeared either. Some of the credit card receipt printers still use it to print two copies, and I've heard them in other places as well, mainly in cash registers. The noise, how could I have ever forgotten all the noise?
 
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
Re: drunken typesetters...I was recently rereading a very old copy of James Blish's Cities in Flight---and the typos I noticed this time around were just incredible, too numerous to count---and at one point, thanks to that, I couldn't tell whether Blish intended to spell something "Prosperine," or "Proserpine," or if he was just varying it for effect in the writing...
 
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
Also on typewriter ribbons---I've made do lately with the "one size fits all" ribbons from the big office supply stores, but there are ribbons for individual models available. Find your typewriter make, go to a search engine, put that name in with "typewriter ribbons," and you should be led to someone who sells them.

(I use two typewriters currently. One, a Smith Corona Galaxie that was my very first, and I use it on short trips or as a way to unblock writer's block---that's the one I make do with. The other is a Smith Corona so-called "electronic typewriter" from the mid-eighties that uses one of those carbon ribbons that lets you correct, but aren't reusable---I only use that one to write out checks, and I have a stack of leftover ribbons bought in the early nineties before such things ceased to be available in stores. I have four other typewriters that I don't use at all, big desktop models bought used in thrift stores.)
 


Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
wow how could anyone forget that noise.

hopefully i can find a ribben for my type writer, but i dont know what my buddys will think as i carry it into my barrics.
i already have 2 computers and a s#$& ton of paper and pens

RFW2nd
 


Posted by Sara Genge (Member # 3468) on :
 
Robert,

Times New Roman is a proportional fount. That means that every letter occupies more or less space depending on how big it is. This makes it prettier to the eye, but more difficult to read in the long run.

In a proportional fount like Courier, every letter is the same size. If you place two lines one under the other, every letter corresponds exactly with the letter underneath it. It makes it easier to judge how long a text is and how much space it will take in printed page. It also makes it easier to correct spelling errors.

But even if there were no real good reason to format manuscripts by industry standards, you should still do it. Why? Because it proves that you can read and follow instructions and that you're not a crazy crank who will let his ego kill the chances of publishing the manuscript. Loads of crazies approach editors every day; it's a good idea to let them know from the start that you're not one of them. Getting garrulous over formatting is just stupid.

Obviously, individual mags and publishers all have their own rules. But if they don't explicitly say what they want, standard manuscript format is a must.
 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
I'm sorry...but a great deal of my toleration for following crazy instructions was used up by the constant rejection I got while following them...and the rest was used up by what I have to go through every day at work.

A whole other world opened up to me when I wrote Internet Fan Fiction. No money involved---but there's no money involved in my submitting and being rejected. And I know more people read that than read the stuff I wrote with intent-to-submit---and not one of them ever objected to Times New Roman.

Right now, I find Times New Roman adequate for anyone to read---this goes for editors and slushpile readers, too.

My submissions in recent years have been somewhat limited---but, to my knowledge, not one of my stories has been bounced because of the type font. Maybe they just stick a standard "it doesn't work for us" form letter in the envelope for that reason---but then, if they're rejecting my work and my manuscript for reasons they won't explain, why should I bother with them and their crazy rules?

Right now I don't know if I'll ever submit to market again, even though I'm hip-deep in several projects. I'm seriously considering just starting a website and putting my own non-fanfic stuff up on it---I'm starting to think it might be better that way, whether anybody ever reads it there or not.
 


Posted by Igwiz (Member # 6867) on :
 
Patrick:

Your commandments made me LOL!!!!

I specifically like this one, and offer an edit...

Thou shalt not type in funny fonts. (courier is nice. And YES, TNR is a funny font!!)


 


Posted by Sara Genge (Member # 3468) on :
 
Robert,

As long as that's what you want from your writing, go straight ahead. But most Hatrackers actually want to be published authors and hell, even paid for their work. It's not impossible to achieve but in order to do it it's necessary to follow some simple instructions. I don't see how converting a manuscript from Times to Courier is a big deal. You can write in windings, for all the editor cares, as long as you submit it in standard manuscript format.

I can assure you that a manuscript can and will be rejected for being poorly formatted. I just had one bounced because I used Courier type 9.5 instead of 12 (something in the way stupid Word saved my document).

I really don't understand why this is such a big deal. Society has many arbitrary rules and most adults don't find it impossible to follow them. Saying "Good Morning", "Please" and "Thank you" might be unnecessary in a conversation, but they prove that the speaker is a reasonably socialized person of at least average intelligence who cares what others think of them. Plus, it's polite. Politeness is always a good idea. Getting hung up over something that takes less than 10 minutes to format correctly, isn't
 


Posted by Patrick James (Member # 7847) on :
 
Igwiz, I should have done so myself. Good suggestion. I will edit.
 
Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
As the editor who lectured me at length pointed out, editors are at no obligation to TELL you why they are rejecting your work. If the author is too subborn or lazy to submit in a correct format, why should the editor go to the trouble of helping them out by taking their own time to explain? They don't and they won't.

So you have no idea whether your work was ever rejected for being in the wrong format. It would seem, from your comments, that you don't care and that's your choice.

Since I very much care about being published, I do care. The information in this thread is intended for people who care.
 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
So the overall is that I'm in a situation where I send something to somebody for purposes of publication, who in fact solicits such submissions, who is then under no obligation to tell me why he doesn't want to do it.

I am simply not inclined to be in that situation any more---for any reason. And not just issues over type fonts.

*****

I also do not belive the notion that these markets lack time to respond individually to every submission---I believe my experiences with Asimov's and Amazing, while edited by George H. Scithers, prove it to be false.

I am driven to wonder just which end of the market is conducting themselves professionally.

*****

I also make note that my submissions are sent to markets that ostensibly publish science fiction. This is a field that professes to be technologically-oriented---yet, when the cards are on the table and the manuscript comes in, they prove so technophobic that they are unwilling to adjust their submission policies to cover something like proportional fonts.
 


Posted by Sara Genge (Member # 3468) on :
 
Robert,

A solicited submission is one which is made by the editor to a particular author who is usually well known and brings readers to the mag.

You're talking about unsolicited subs, which many markets accept and appreciate, but which they haven't actually asked for. Unsolicited subs are a lot more like advertisements in your mailbox than letters from a close friend. You may need a guy to fix the roof and call the number on the ad, but you're in no way obliged to do so, even to say that you don't want their services.

Even if editors did have the time to respond personally to the, say 600 subs a big mag gets a month, they might not want to. Personalized rejections attract far more crazies than forms and editors, like most human beings, don't like to be called names and/or stalked. Besides, a story may be rejected for vague reasons that are difficult to explain in a couple of lines. Or it may be very bad: like my grandma used to say, if you don't have anything nice to say, then just shut up.

I don't think you've understood the reasons why non-proportional fonts are better than proportional fonts. I'll repeat: it has to do with catching spelling errors and typesetting.

I fully agree that many mags are technophobic. Personally, I think the big three could get over themselves already and start accepting e-subs. It costs me 5e to mail a submission to the USA. By not taking e-subs, the big markets are scaring off foreign writers--but I'll try not to derail this thread into the whole diversity debate.

Again, if you're happy writing fan-fic, then good for you. I wish you the best with that. But most beginning writers need to learn how to format correctly and why it's important. I'm sorry standard manuscript format makes you feel bad, but that's not the subject of this thread.
 


Posted by Tiergan (Member # 7852) on :
 
Thanks for the link back at the beginning of the post JeanneT. If where ever you are submitting doesnt have guidelines then you need a "standard" and that link defines "standard" well enough for me.
 
Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :
 
quote:
I fully agree that many mags are technophobic. Personally, I think the big three could get over themselves already and start accepting e-subs. It costs me 5e to mail a submission to the USA. By not taking e-subs, the big markets are scaring off foreign writers--but I'll try not to derail this thread into the whole diversity debate.

That is a little expensive, but I do understand one of the reasons they stick to paper submissions. How much effort does it take to print, package, and mail a submission? Now, how much is required to click on an email address and drag and drop a file and hit send? So, I would imagine that anyone who accepts electronic submissions would get quadruple the number of submissions or more compared to the number of paper submissions. So it isn't that these companies can't accept electronic submissions, they are limiting the amount of slush they have to wade through.


 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
I think the "technophobic" issue is minor, compared to the "we won't look at a novel unless it comes from an agent" issue. Also there's the "we pay less for stories now than the markets did during the Great Depression" issue. (I'll throw in the "what happened to interior artwork" issue, as well.) And just what is a professional market?

As for "solicited" submissions---over the years, many of the markets have put out various notices along the lines of "we invite submissions." I don't know what the currents status of the major magazine markets are, but I'd think even less of them if they only bought works from writers they hit up for works.

And a few short years of fanfic writing has brought me more readers---people who liked my stuff, and were kind enough to tell me so---than a much larger period of being rejected by the so-called pro markets. Since no money has been involved in either, I can see no practical difference.

(And complaints about "too lazy" apparently refer to proper use of type fonts---and only to that. But just what is lacking the desire to package one's printed manuscript in an envelope and send it through the regular (or overseas) mail?)

*****

(Also, there's this tendency to remind one of "the subject of the thread at certain points in the argument...)
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
There IS no argument, Robert. The standard format has been listed by various people and I posted a link to a page that gives it. This is the standard format whether you like it or not or whether you do submissions or not--which you evidently don't. *shrug*

Edit: You're very welcome, Tiergan. That particular page had been pointed out to me by editors as a good one to use and Robert Sawyer certainly knows whereof he speaks.

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited April 11, 2008).]
 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
Okay, JeanneT and Robert Nowall, could you please ignore each other from now on?

Thank you.
 


Posted by Patrick James (Member # 7847) on :
 
Thanks Kathleen, somebody had to say it.
 
Posted by Wolfe_boy (Member # 5456) on :
 
How are there fights going on in here when the topic of discussion is manuscript format, but the thread discussing global warming, American arrogance and the global conspiracy to hold down dissenting opinion still remaining reasonably civil?

Wow.

Jayson Merryfield
 


Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
WOW that blew my worn out brain.
i tought i was crazy but after that i dont know any more.

RFW2nd
 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
What's to argue? I brought up that Times New Roman is perfectly readable, and that I see no rational reason for restrictions on its use in submitted manuscripts, and that I, therefore, will not abide by any such restriction on its use.

This degenerates into a lengthy discussion into what constitutes professional behavior, what one is willing to do to be considered by a professional market---and, when you get down to it, what constitutes a professional market.
 


Posted by JeanneT (Member # 5709) on :
 
I'll be happy to, Kathleen, although I believe our disagreement has been quite civil. I wasn't aware that a civil disagreement was verboten here.

I have to question why we can't argue over formatting but the political thread can go on arguing (less civilly not more so, thank you, Wolfe_boy--and I THOUGHT politics were supposed to be kept OFF this forum) for pages.

Apparently this is now a political debate forum instead of a writing one. My bad. *shrugs*

[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited April 12, 2008).]
 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
Actually the debate has helped me decide something about how to handle my career...I'll go into more detail as soon as I finalize some plans, which might take months as I check out a few things...
 
Posted by urodela1 (Member # 7907) on :
 
From what I've heard, courier 12 pt is used because it's easier to edit a monospaced font and with one inch margins, double spaced it breaks down into consistant average of words per page (~250).

It's ugly, but nostalgic--like using those old typewriters without all the bother of feeding paper or jamming keys. Apparently underlining in lieu of italics and using all caps for chapter titles have also been recommended. But no bold text or lightning will strike you down.

Sincerely,
Urodela1
 


Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :
 
I read this thread with some interest because I'm just getting to submitting my first story.

I checked submission guidelines for some major markets. They're almost universal about not accepting e-submissions (Interzone is open to them a couple of months each year, the others not at all) and here's what they say about ms formatting:

Analog:

Manuscripts must be computer-printed or typed, double-spaced, on white paper, one side of the sheet only. Please avoid unusual or very small typefaces. Indent paragraphs but do not leave extra space between them.

Asimov's:

Manuscripts submitted to Asimov's must be neatly typed, double-spaced on one side of the sheet only, on bond paper

Interzone:

Please send your manuscript mailed flat or folded no more than once, in standard format (double spaced, good margins, printed on one side of the paper),

Fantasy and Science Fiction:

Please type your manuscript on clean white bond, double spaced, with one inch margins. For a good article on standard manuscript preparation, see sfwa.org/writing/vonda/vonda.htm.

Only F&SF specifically mentions the vonda article and by implication requests Courier. I guess Times Roman would be okay for the others provided it's not "very small".

Hope this helps, not trying to stir things up, just contributing some information,
Pat

 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
I guess it's just me, but "typed" also implies Courier.

<shrug>
 


Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :
 
quote:
I guess it's just me, but "typed" also implies Courier.

First time in a long time I've been insufficiently old-fashioned ;-)

Pat
 


Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
"...on bond paper...?" "...clean white bond...?" I think another of my objections to their preconditions has arisen...lately I've been using Office Max copy paper for my printer and my submitted manuscripts...as I recall, I used to type on bond paper, but once I got my first computer and printer, I used it till I ran out, then switched to various office supply stuff, which does the job.
 
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
 
I should say, before I get another bunch of chewings-out, that this "bond paper" rule was something I knew about, saw, remembered from way back---but clean forgot about till I saw it again here.

Unlike the "Times New Roman" rule, which has come up in the Age of Computers and, except for a couple of expensive typewriter models, wasn't a factor in submissions back then...

Just another thing to add to in the "why do I put myself through this?" column, though...
 


Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
another reason for me bringing up this topic is i am going to time permitting summit some of my older work i yhave saved on over 60 floopy disks. (most likly few will work after 4 years in a friends attic) but it still worth a try.

RFW2nd
 


Posted by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (Member # 4199) on :
 
sorry posted same thing twice. S#888 gov't commputers froze and i summitted 2.

RFW2nd

[This message has been edited by Rommel Fenrir Wolf II (edited April 18, 2008).]
 




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