Hatrack River Writers Workshop: what makes a story literature, and why do we care?

This is topic what makes a story literature, and why do we care? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by LAJD (Member # 8070) on :

I went to a book club last nite, where my choices of reading material were sniffed at by the attending literati. Huff.

Just so you have frame of reference, my tastes range from Buffy TVS graphic novels to historical fiction to vampire & werewolf stories to all kinds of SF & Fantasy to NY Times best sellers to nonfiction of any kind to whatever passes my eyeballs. I read a lot and widely. When I drive I listen to audiobooks. I don't consider any genre intrinsically better than any other, but I do consider individual works better than others.

Am I just an uneducated toad because I find much of the so-called literature completely unreadable? No plot, weird POV, odd sentence structure. Blech.

What is more confusing to me is that much literature in the past did not suffer from this. Every play by Shakespeare has a plot and characterization and all those other things that we as writers try to put in our work.

Am I missing something?

Posted by Grovekeeper (Member # 5650) on :

Perhaps if you tilt your head back and look down your nose a little more, their viewpoint will become clearer...

-G

Posted by LAJD (Member # 8070) on :

I know, that is exactly how I feel, but then there is this little tickle in the back of my head that says..."They know more than you do...."

Posted by J (Member # 2197) on :

They might. Or might not. All, the same, I'd forgo mentioning graphic novels at a book club. It's a fine medium, but they aren't books, per se.

Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :

I hate to use the E-word because it's been co-opted of recent, but I'll use it anyway.

Why allow a bunch of Elitists govern what you like? If you like genre, enjoy, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks. My sneaking suspicion is that many of them aspire to certain tastes just to attain to a certain stature among a peer group.

Posted by J (Member # 2197) on :

Chris, the "elitist" discussion always bothers me. It's one thing to say that someone is "elitist" when they claim some exclusive right to determine what writing is good and worthwhile, and what poor and unworthy. That's fine, and has a lot of truth to it.

But, whenever this forum has a discussion on elitists, there always appears to be this underlying presumption on the part of a lot of the participants that there aren't any substantive differences between, say a Buffy the Vampire Graphic Novel and The Brothers Karamazov. In other words, there's this widespread assumption that no one has the right to judge some works as worthy, and other works as unworthy, because worth is only in the eye of the reader, and a Buffy comic book is every bit as valuable as a timeless classic.

I refuse to believe this is true. If it's all relative--if the only value of a written work is whether someone at some point finds it amusing--then the endeavor of writing is not worth the time we spend on it. Unless there is an objective standard of excellence towards which we all strive, there is no point in writing, and even less point in discussing writing.

[Edited to note that putting up with "elites" or "writing snobs" is probably an inevitable characteristic of being in a book club. If their judgments bother you, don't join one or try a different one.]

[Edited further to note that because the "elitist" topic can cause thread hijack so readily, I will say nothing further on it.]

[This message has been edited by J (edited October 24, 2008).]

Posted by satate (Member # 8082) on :

My understanding of a classic (classic, not necessarily literature) is that it is read and presumably enjoyed by generation after generation. It has stood the test of time. I think time is the great culling of literature (literature meaning all books and not a defined set) and it can even cut down the greats of today if they don't have anything to offer. Time is the natural selection of the literature world. It effects even the required reading in schools because every few years the school board or whoever makes the decisions reviews which books to enforce upon the next generation. If those in charge did not find anything of value in the book they were forced to read there may be a change. Enough changes and the books that don't offer anything to the next generation will fall by the wayside, the equivalent of species extinction.

I find the literature vs. genre discussion very similar to music. I'm a music teacher and so deal everyday with forcing literature on students who may only love High School Musical or rap. It's my opinion that much of the literature out that has no plot and almost no entertainment value has other value and that it's purpose is different. There is an idea out in art circles that art should be enjoyed simply for arts sake devoid of any entertainment. It does often smack of an, only the pure can truly experience the art and if you are not moved as I am moved then you are less holy, idea. Often though, the enjoyment comes only with education and exposure thus the elitist feel. The same often happens with music. Classical music is sometimes not enjoyed until understood on different levels. I think the same may be said of literature (meaning a category of books). Those who enjoy literature often come across elitist (I can enjoy this because I'm smart enough and your too stupid to like it) and I think sometimes people do think that. No one is perfect, but true lovers of word I think enjoy many aspects of the art. These would be able to read and love literature, and genre. I remember an eye opening experience I had in college while studying music. Being a little cocky and young I said to my roomate, who was also studying music, that I was only going to let my children listen to classical and nothing else. She said that she would rather have her children exposed to all types of music from rap, to Dave Mathews Band to Bach. My thought was, oh that's probably better. So, I think there is something to literature and I think those who eschew all books except literature are a little elitist.

As to book clubs, I have been to many where I didn't not offer my favorite books because I knew they would not enjoy them. I find science fiction/fantasy readers to be less common, though it's gaining in popularity. Try easing your book club into sci/fi and fantasy. I was shocked when in my last book club someone had them read Enders Game and they liked it.

[This message has been edited by satate (edited October 24, 2008).]

Posted by rstegman (Member # 3233) on :

Sorry if this veers the subject slightly.

The ELITE are those in the clique of the wealthy, popular, connected, and of families of these.

Back in the "middle ages," the royalty of the many countries created a clique. They chose how to dress, talk, act, even walk, that was way different than what the common people did. The common people do what is comfortable, easy practical. The clique, the elite, did things difficultly, and changed it as time went on to stay ahead of the common people, in order to stand out.. It was common for the wealthy merchants, who could not learn all the rules and acts of the elite, to marry their daughters into the family so the children would become elites. They would give a lot of money just for that right.

An elite who was down on their luck, might not look any different than a common person, but they stood out for what they were because they walked, talked, and acted differently. You take a down and out elite and place them in an elite situation and they will prove what they are. There are stories of a prince instantly being known as one, even though they looked common. They stood out like space aliens.

Of course, in America, there are no real royalty, but the wealthy who passed their wealth off to their children, developed their own clique, their own elite. Much of what they do started from the elite of England and France. Again, it is difficult for the common folk. Knowing which silverware to use, how to decorate, basically, how to impress others. Martha Stewart in her shows, was showing some of the secrets of the elite life, how to entertain, how to impress.

When Freud discussed ID, he was discussing the difference between how one is SUPPOSED to be, compared to how one really was. This is one of the problems of being in a clique, whether it is the elite, or a neighborhood gang. What you are supposed to be, and what you actually are, can be two different things.

The elite are even the ones who are actually discussed, when the press talks about THE PEOPLE. They are not talking about the population.

One of the things about belonging to the clique, as mentioned, is that one has to work to belong. Literature, Modern art, Music, fashion, of the elite, are stuff designed so the common people will not like them. They enjoy them because one is supposed to in order to belong to the clique. One discusses the book lists you have read, the shows you went to, the music you listen to, in order to show you belong, not because you have no interest in them.

Finally to writing.

Literature is not designed to be enjoyed. It is designed to be appreciated by those who are impressed by authors and titles one is discussing. They are for those who are in the clique so they can prove they are a step above the common people.

I found that reading material recommended in classes I have taken over the years, and in discussions even on line, is never anything I would or have read. My tastes are so much different. I have found individual people who have read a lot of the books I have read, but anybody who are "serious" tend to recommend writing outside my reading list. Even a lot of books mentioned here on Hatrack, are books I have not even heard of....

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

Leslie, I agree with Chris on this one. Please don't let others govern your reading tastes. Also, I believe taste bears little or no relation to education.

(When my English teachers thought they were educating me by forcing me to read "good books", all they were doing was teaching me that their taste wasn't mine. The contribution of forced book reading to my not-inconsiderable edumacation was infinitesimal.)

Here are some previous threads on literature and the general disdain for genre fiction that literati too often express. Like religion and sex, it's a topic that can lead to ill temper here at Hatrack :-(

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/004580.html

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/004761.html

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum1/HTML/004756.html

Cheers,
Pat

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

If you are willing to accept the idea that extra understanding or education or insight is necessary to appreciate what is considered "literature," then why not expand your horizons in that direction and learn what needs to be learned?

If you believe that it's all a sham designed to separate people artificially, then don't worry about it. We have enough things in our lives to separate us. Look for the things that bring us together.

From my own experience, LAJD, in such a book club, I would not recommend that you try introducing science fiction or fantasy, even as ENDER'S GAME to that book club. You run the risk of just being frustrated and of separation. Instead, read what they pick and see if there isn't something there that you can learn from, that you can use to make your own writing better, that can even give you insights into the stuff you love to read that you might not have noticed otherwise.

It is so cool to be able to reread an old favorite after having learned something from "literature" and see that something applied. It adds whole new levels to the really good stuff that we love, without hurting it at all.

Posted by TaleSpinner (Member # 5638) on :

KDW, your constructive, inclusive attitude is exemplary.

I'll revise my statement about taste and education: while taste bears little or no relation to the results of teaching, it's profoundly improved with learning, insight and understanding.

Your comments remind me that Steven Covey said something like: "To influence, be influenced." Perhaps, Leslie, if you learn from your book club as KDW suggests, sooner or later they may allow you to share your tastes.

Cheers,
Pat

Posted by LAJD (Member # 8070) on :

Thanks for all the interesting comments and good discussion. I did walk into the book club knowing that I would not likely persuade anyone to read anything on my A list, but that's okay.

I will take a Conan view of this "That which does not sear the eyeballs out of my head or numb my brain will make my writing stronger."

KDW- Point taken. One reason I did agree to this book club was to force my reading choices in unnatural (for me) directions. I may even find I like some of it! 8)

Leslie

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

Good for you, Leslie. You may even find you like some of it, but you don't have to like any of it, even if you can learn from it.

The thing that I love about book clubs is that they allow a group of individuals to share insights and experiences they had all reading the same book. I always learn more about a book and what can be gained from it when I have a chance to hear how other people understood it.

And if nothing else, a book club has got to be a great resource for characterization.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I kinda think it's less about anything intrinsic to the story, then it is where you publish. If, say, your short stories get published in, say, The New Yorker, it's literature, but if it's in Analog or Asimov's or even F & SF, it's pulp trash. (At least it is in the eyes of those who want to be published in The New Yorker.)

Posted by satate (Member # 8082) on :

One of my favorite book clubs was one in which each person had a turn in choosing the book. I thought it was great. I was exposed to so many different books that I would never have read before and learned a lot in the process. On my turn I got to choose Tolkien.