I've been reading quite a bit about it in books on writing, paying attention to examples in published works, and generally thinking over how I want to do it, and I decided I wanted to try writing a scene in which two characters have sex without "dancing around" the deed in question.
I originally wanted to put this is the fragments & feedback section, as I'm looking for a crit on the chapter I wrote (~4k words), but I thought there could also be a decent discussion on the issue, so I opted to post here instead. Obviously, I'm not writing a book targeted at kids -- but at the same time I'm not writing erotica (with no disrespect intended to writers of the genre - that's just not where I was going with this WIP). In my case, the point of the scene isn't to titillate (though I wouldn't be disappointed if it did so), but because it develops the relationship between the two characters and provides unique insight into how they think and act.
My questions to the assembled wisdom of this forum:
How do you prefer your sex scenes? Nonexistent? As explicit as possible? Funny?
Are there cliches that you've actually seen in published work that piss you off (or turn you off)?
Are there non-cliche things that irritate you?
Is there anything that a good sex scene absolutely needs?
And finally -- if two characters (at least one of whom is usually or always POV) get it on, and as the reader you're left waiting out in the living room, does that disappoint you?
I don't have a problem with an author detailing sex between characters, but I don't see much of that in sci-fi or fantasy. Maybe that's just the genre style. Usually there's the foreplay and then the characters are in bed after the fact. That doesn't disappoint me because that's what I expect. If, OTOH, I read a romance, I expect the full scene.
I think my favorite recently was in a Bernard Cornwell Sharpe novel (different genre, I know). It went something like:
"Don't worry, I won't keep you awake."
But she did.
However you do it, the only thing, IMO, a sex scene must have is this: It must be earned. Sex is the payoff for a buildup of tension between the characters in question. No buildup, no anticipation, no rooting for the characters to hook up, and the sex scene rings false.
When reading sex scenes I don't want to know the details of how flesh touches flesh. I don't want a "how-to". I want to know about the emotions, the thoughts... the quivering of anticipation, the stirrings of the heart, the surprise, the amazement. It's very much like fight scenes... too much graphic blow-by-blow is boring. Use the action to forward the story or it is merely gratuitous.
(Come to think of it, I've never read one that went into detail that wasn't funny, unintentionally or otherwise.)
As for me personally, I don't like reading anything more than a suggestion, enough to know that it happened, and nothing more. I think I'm kind of unique in that regard, but just know that you'll always have some readers who don't want to hear about it at all, and who will most likely skip it. So I would suggest if you have this scene in a novel, don't throw any important plot information into the middle of it, and don't put it at the beginning of the book. If I encounter a scene like that before I trust the author, I won't continue reading.
[This message has been edited by Marita Ann (edited July 25, 2009).]
If the latter, I would set the stage so we all know what's about to happen and then skip ahead.
If something that happens during the act (not foreplay, which I think is fine, up to a point) is critical to the story. Or if something in the story hinges directly on it (like a turning point for one of the characters or the plot), then I'm fine with a certain level of detail. Not a sex manual, mind you. There's usually no need to get really graphic.
In The Ignored Prophecy, the existence of a loving, and physical, relationship is important. But not the specifics. So I've developed a kind of shorthand for them. For example, she likes to play with his tattoos, tracing them with her finger. So, I show that, maybe a kiss, then I draw the curtain, figuratively speaking, and let the reader work out the rest.
In Dreamer's Rose, when I get that far, there will be a case that is a turning point for both characters and the plot. I'll have to develop that a little further. Not sure how much, yet. If the story pivots on it, the scene has to be strong enough to support it.
JMO
The kind of thing I can think of where it might be appropriate is to reveal some character/personality trait (maybe a hint of sadism or some sort of inadequecy), which can be done without an overabundance of detail.
Other people might enjoy a brief diversion from the story for some steamy voyeurism, as it's not uncommon to see.
I avoided a sex scene in a story by giving the reader the marriage ritual and then the bride and groom went into an empty house and closed down the curtain door. One hour later they came out. We all know what happened in there, no need to get graphical because it would not do anything for the story. The marriage itself was a vital part of the plot.
To answer a few questions/respond to various thoughts:
quote:
Read a bunch of romance books.
With regards to the many comments about how sex fits into certain genres better than others -- this particular WIP is hard-ish scifi, but I think it fits the character of the story. From the comments above, I'm still relatively confident that it works. It is somewhat early in the story, but the scene itself greatly develops two of the main characters, one of whom (the guy, who is also the POV here) is a virgin. His perspective and thoughts, IMO, are what make the scene: the constant struggle of anxiety and desire not to screw it up versus the holy$@&!thisisreallyhappeningohmygodohmygod. It's also the source of much humor in the scene. I definitely don't believe that this scene exists for the purpose of existing - it seemed to write itself as I was going through the natural progression of the plot. In fact, I hadn't planned on them getting together till much later.
One other reason I'm particularly attached to this scene is because it does an excellent job of fitting in to the greater theme of the story as a whole. In a nutshell, a group of college kids, most of whom are trust fund babies, sneak off in a one of their parents' ships to head to what is basically a resort planet. As far as they're concerned, it's a week of gambling, booze, and sex. Very shortly after entering the "jump" (my FTL), they realize that the ship has been set to go off the grid, and as they realize they are going to a place where their parents' money can't buy them out of anything and they have no way to go home (it is nontrivial to make the right jump, and they're off the grid, so they don't know how to get back), they are uncomfortably jarred out of their extended adolescence and forced to grow up fast.
This scene, which occurs shortly after the s__t has hit the fan and everybody knows that they are in big trouble, works both as a way to get to know how two of the characters think, and as a symbolic way of "making a man" of the character who otherwise appeared to be the most grown up.
I'll post a request for crit in the frag&feedback section. BTW - I don't want to violate any board policies: is there a min age in profile under which I shouldn't offer the chapter for crit? I'm not a big believer in censorship myself, but I'm also not a parent.
Personally, I don't write sex scenes. I try to keep my characters relatively chaste (I write mostly YA). But occasionally they get into a situation where I know the general public isn't going to believe nothing happened. Ah well. Let them think what they want to. I know the truth.
quote:
I try to keep my characters relatively chaste
The vast majority of my main characters tend to stay that way for reasons other than because their author doesn't feel like writing such a scene. My YA MC enjoys 'making out sessions' just as much as the next teenaged boy, but he knows that sex (and the potential consequences) will severely derail his lofty goals, so he abstains. One of my SF MCs is simply too busy with all the obstacles I've heaps on him to even think about sex. And, the only women one of my other SF MC spends time with during the course of the story are alien, so sex simply ain't gonna happen.
Although, with my upcoming mainstream WIP, the word 'celibacy' doesn't exist...which explains why I'm so interested in this thread.
S!
S!
You could ask people to declare that they are over 18 in the post in which they offer to critique for you, and if they are lying, it will be their problem--their declarations of age will be on record.
Still...I want to learn more about how to write such scenes, so I'm going to take rstegman's advice and read a few 'romance' novels.
Any suggestions? I'm looking for stories where the sexual act is told from the emotional (and, for some people, spiritual) connection (or lack thereof) angle.
The anatomical workings I can figure out for myself, thank you.
Thanx in advance!
S!
S!
One of the more enjoyable stories I've read this year, a 2008 Nebula nominated novella, current-day cutting-edge romance, Kelley Eskridge's "Dangerous Space."
http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/Dangerous-Space-Kelley-Eskridge.pdf
Sexual tension, a main conventional feature of amatory romance novels, sex without overt anatomy lessons, sex and drugs in Dolls. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll in "Dangerous Space."
I also recommend Wikipedia topics Romance Novel and Sexual Tension for insights and accessing downstream resources.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited August 14, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by Andrew_McGown (edited August 14, 2009).]
Of course, that doesn't mean your characters can never have sex, just that you probably won't be able to describe the act itself with any kind of authenticity, so drawing the curtain and skipping ahead may be the best option.
I do agree that you should probably avoid writing sex scenes absent any experience in said arena, but I'd shy away from associating one's level of experience with religion or marital status. I'd especially avoid making statements about a group if I wasn't a member of the group in question...
I want to take a moment to rant about the tv/movie portrayals of women in labor. It's clear to me when I see these scenes that they were 1) written by men, and 2) acted by women who have never given birth.
Some scenes do, indeed, require personal experience to portray them accurately. A graphic romance scene should in some way convey the emotions going on... the physical act is far less interesting than the stirrings of the heart taking place: the longing, the resistance, the surrender, the overwhelm.
quote:would be more offensive than what you suggest.
unmarried + LDS = not a virgin
quote:
I'd especially avoid making statements about a group if I wasn't a member of the group in question...
I apologize if anybody took offense to my assuming they might live chastely.
For the record, micmcd, I am in fact a member of the group in question. ("LDS," anyways, and a former member of "unmarried LDS.") I am well aware that not all unmarried LDS people are virgins. However, unmarried LDS people are statistically more likely to be virgins than the general populace. (Yes, I am making assumptions; no, I do not have any facts to back it up.) Reading the previous posts, and knowing OSC's popularity in the LDS community, I thought of stories I have read that had sex scenes that were very obviously written by people who had no idea what sex is like, and how wildly inauthentic they were. Did I have to associate my comment with mormons? No, but I did, because that's what I was thinking about.
Seriously, do I have to be PC about this? Heaven forbid I make the offensive assumption that people might be living the principles they believe in.
quote:
I'd shy away from associating one's level of experience with religion or marital status
Anyone who was offended by my assumption of your virginity, let me know, and I'll email you a personal apology card.
[This message has been edited by wetwilly (edited August 14, 2009).]
quote:
I'm pretty sure religion and marital status have a pretty big impact on one's sex life.
They can be big influences, but often (in my experience) not in the most stereotypical way. I have single friends who have had way more/crazier sex than I have, some of whom belong to various churches and others who don't. When I was in high school, the people I knew who got laid the most were from church. And when I was in college, I actually knew a fair number of LDS members, some of whom were quite strict adherents to their faith, others of whom introduced me to the joy of beer, and one of whom actually became something of an outcast in her community when she came out as a lesbian. And on the other end of the backwards scale, I've known an atheist who was more uptight about sex than anyone in any church I've ever been to, and was basically too frightened to have any until she was married (was worried about the biological & emotional consequences, not so much the religious ones).
Anyhow, I didn't mean to be a jerk about it - that was just one of those sentences that set off my "careful!" alarm, as I know people who've gotten pilloried, so to speak, for less. I figured you were LDS, and therefore more qualified to make the statement, and I was aware of the popularity of OSC among LDS, so it made sense.
@Andrew_McGown - It's a provocative title, but only unfortunate if you don't have the mind of an adolescent, as my wife so often reminds me that I do.
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edit: ( jokes jokes )
[This message has been edited by Andrew_McGown (edited August 14, 2009).]
quote:
I've known an atheist who was more uptight about sex than anyone in any church I've ever been to, and was basically too frightened to have any until she was married (was worried about the biological & emotional consequences, not so much the religious ones).
That would be an interesting, off-beat kind of character for a story.
quote:
If you want your writing to have any authenticity, I would say do not try to write sex scenes if you have never been in one yourself.
I disagree with this statement completely. Substitute "sex scenes" with "alien culture", "murder", "adultery", or anything else in which one does not have first-hand experience.
Make it up. And if the details are beyond one's ability to adequately portray any of the acts above, then read up on it as others have suggested. Or ask someone.
However, though I'm a sick bastard with a dirty mind, I don't think sex scenes are all that important unless it's a romance novel, or erotica. It's like using gore in a horror story; a little goes a long way.
I also think sex can be vital in stories outside of the Romance and Erotica genres, because they can show a great deal about the characters--how they act under pressure, how they feel about others, etc.--and it can send the plot in a different direction. That's not to say that all stories need a sex scene, but writers (with some experience with sex) who shy from writing a sex scene simply because it's uncomfortable to them could risk the emotional connection with their readers.
Akira Kurosawa:
quote:
To be an artist means never to avert your eyes.
quote:That depends on the story. I'll accept any of the above as long as it's a natural outcome of preceding scenes.
How do you prefer your sex scenes? Nonexistent? As explicit as possible? Funny?
quote:Every sex scene I can recall was different, as they should be.
Are there cliches that you've actually seen in published work that piss you off (or turn you off)?
quote:The use of food in sex creeps me out. In Elizabeth's Benedict's excellent The Joy of Writing Sex, there's an example involving eggplant that still bothers me, about a year after I first read it.
Are there non-cliche things that irritate you?
quote:The same things any good scene needs. Feeling and reaction.
Is there anything that a good sex scene absolutely needs?
quote:That depends on how important the sex is to the story. In Jim Butcher's The Dresden Files, most of Harry's (rather slow) sex life happens off-scene, and that doesn't disappoint me. Butcher shows us what's happening when it matters--like when Dresden succumbs to his half-vampire (ex?) girlfriend. That scene shows readers how much those characters have lost and that they are prisoners to their desires as well as to their sense of responsibility.
[I]f two characters (at least one of whom is usually or always POV) get it on, and as the reader you're left waiting out in the living room, does that disappoint you?
The best scenes, in my mind, are those that focus on emotion rather than action. That's why I don't bother reading modern-day Romance novels. If the scene is all about action, then you're probably better off ripping it out of the story.
*Edited to delete extra spaces around quotes.*
[This message has been edited by aspirit (edited August 16, 2009).]
You say that any good scene needs "feeling and reaction". Sex itself is a purely physical act that may or may not have emotion attached to it. A good writer, virgin or not, can adequately portray a sex scene since it's the emotions that are conveyed to the reader, not the technical aspects of the sex act.
Actually, I think most of your last response is a good rebuttal to your own statement that a writer without first-hand experience should refrain from writing a sex scene.
Amatory romance novels are prone toward resolution sex scenes, some thrillers too, mystery and spy. There's more potential dramatic meaning in a seduction buildup and fallout or aftermath, though, than in the actual sexual action.
The traditional classic romance story depends in part on a love interest that drives sexual tension, not necessarily depicting a sex scene, but sometimes with a widely recognized symbolic depiction like waves crashing on a beach during a moonrise instead.
A sex scene can be a cause or effect. It can be a calamity or a triumph or a relief from sexual tension or a reciprocal/nonreciprocal resolution of a purpose, goal, desire, etc.
Kelley Eskridge's "Dangerous Space" has one sex scene that's depicted as gratuitous, but not gratuitously depicted. It's a meaningless encounter for the participants, but meaningful to the story.
Sexual tension, a primary feature of any story with a love interest, is a significantly meaningful attribute building up to any sex scene, requited or unrequited. I doubt anyone who's postadolescent hasn't personally experienced some level of sexual tension.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited August 17, 2009).]
Anyway, rich, we seem to disagree on the meaning of a couple of words.
If intense enough, a kissing scene is a sex scene. A scene with a single character can be a sex scene. An experienced person can still be a virgin, depending on the definition used.
What you mean by emotion, I have no idea. The only real person I know who doesn't feel any emotion during sex is a married man who was paralyzed physically and emotionally in a car accident. Though he regained normal external function of his body over the years, he still can't feel emotion at all.
The thing is, anyone can write the technical aspects of sex. I could have written porn easy-peasy when I was a teenager, though I had no personal experiences with it. An anatomy book and locker talk gives a person that kind of knowledge. But without first-experience, how do you know what sex feels like?
Research, yes. The kind of research that tells the writer how individuals interpret the act, not how they physically did it. With enough skill and a brilliant imagination, the writer can create the scene into more than stolen meanings.
quote:
easy-peasy
We do disagree on some things, though, and it's obvious from your "kissing scene is a sex scene" that we'll never agree. Kissing, no matter how intense, is not sex. It can be erotic, but it can't be sex.
I think there's a confusion between "love" and "sex". One doesn't need to love someone (emotion) in order to have sex. Do you think a hooker feels emotion during sex?
Anyway, I'll stop now, but just say that if there's a writer out there who doesn't have sexual experience, but wants to write about it, then by all means go ahead. Like anything else in writing, one can try to fake it, and the reader will let you know if you were a good liar.
quote:
Do you think a hooker feels emotion during sex?
do you think she doesn't?
interesting.
[This message has been edited by Andrew_McGown (edited August 18, 2009).]
quote:
Chuck Finley
The baseball player?
Continuing on semantics (and I apologize if it's inappropriate to the thread): There's a difference between "sex" and "sex scene". Erotic (rather than platonic) kissing is a sexual activity in that it arouses and (however rare) can cause orgasm; thereby, it's sex. Of course, no one needs to agree with me on that.
Sex scenes aren't easy to define. I think of them as any scene that shows or implies sexual activity. That includes a scene in which characters are kissing and moving towards more by the scene break.
Do I think a hooker feels emotion during sex? Yes, unless she's trained herself to disconnect completely, and I'd think using a mask of suitable emotions would be easier. That is, she acknowledges what she needs to feel (the emotions the writer would show) and suppresses anything unsuitable (probably shown in another scene).
quote:Agreed.
Anyway, I'll stop now, but just say that if there's a writer out there who doesn't have sexual experience, but wants to write about it, then by all means go ahead. Like anything else in writing, one can try to fake it, and the reader will let you know if you were a good liar.
quote:
We do disagree on some things, though, and it's obvious from your "kissing scene is a sex scene" that we'll never agree. Kissing, no matter how intense, is not sex. It can be erotic, but it can't be sex.
quote:
Chuck Finley.
I find sex scenes a bit tacky, not because I'm offended by them, but because I expect that out of cheap romance novels and not a sci-fi story or other specific peaces of literature that interest me. If an author is planning on going there, I would like to get a hint of it first. I guess it does depend on how detailed the scene is - I just don't see a lot of detail as necessary. These things are cheap gimmicks in movies, and I feel the same way about them in literature.
[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited August 18, 2009).]
quote:
do you think she doesn't?
I guess it would depend on the hooker, wouldn't it? But I'm really not sure what's interesting about it.