For instance, I have a character that says things like:
"Of course, it wasn't that he really cared."
or
"But let's be honest..."
If these are 'tag phrases' or tag thoughts of a character, is it okay to use them fairly frequently?
Now, I'm not talking every page, but definitely often.
What are your thoughts?
Furthermore, what are your thoughts on often-fought-over area of vulgarity? I mean, if a character swears a lot, it'd be stupid to have him say "Frick" or anything of the sort, because it just wouldn't fit his character. But of course, some people stand adamant that "swearing is cheating".
I understand that less swear words means that they have more emphasis. But what if the character doesn't use them for emphasis? What if he's just downright vulgar, and uses them as casual as any other word in the dictionary?
The main point of people who tell you don't do these things is to get you to avoid using them as a crutch in lieu of real character development which incorporates a lot of elements of good story telling -including speaking mannerisms. People aren't totally defined by how they speak, they're defined by their actions, physical characteristics etc...etc...
As for the swearing, I look at that as a challenge as well. I don't like reading stories with profanity, so I don't want to write them. I try to use instances where I would use profanity to dig deeper into the dialogue and make it more revealing. Of course, some people really talk like that, and I don't have much skill in dialogue, so I am not always successful. But I'm working on it.
In the case of my novel WIP, trying to avoid a character using a catch phrase too much actually led me to use it instead as a major plot device which deepened the interaction between two of my main characters. I was very pleased with myself.
"I mean, if a character swears a lot, it'd be stupid to have him say "Frick" or anything of the sort, because it just wouldn't fit his character."
I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with someone who swears all the time in real life so why would I do that while reading? I read a little bit of a story where the main character said the 'F' word at least once a sentence. He was a convict just released from jail so I gave it a few pages to see if his language cleaned up as he entered society. It didn't and I never finished the book, though there were other reasons I put the book down as well.
quote:
I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with someone who swears all the time in real life so why would I do that while reading?
I don't really understand this logic, though. I mean, isn't the point of reading to see inside of people you might not otherwise understand? Well, on top of being entertained of course.
I can understand every sentence being too much, but I don't really get why fairly frequent use would be frowned upon from a writing standpoint.
Lyra -- I totally get what you mean there. I would never rely on vulgarity to establish the character as a whole. But it seems rather silly to have the character not swear, when doing so is something he does naturally. It'd be like having a devoutly religious man that didn't pray. It just doesn't make sense -- And censoring for the sake of censoring seems more fake than a character that drops the F bomb occasionally.
Teraen -- That's a very good idea. I'll have to mess around with that. Thank you!
Thank you all for your responses. Please note that everything I say I mean in a civil tongue. I'm not trying to spark a flame war here by any means!
Edit for late night stupidity... Twice.
[This message has been edited by Gan (edited December 10, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by Gan (edited December 10, 2009).]
That sounds like the start of that novel, from the description...
Catch phrases are a stock quality in some genres and common place in certain fantastical milieus. Like jokes and ironical voices and about any other aspect of creative writing, timeliness and context are what makes a catch phrase meaningful. I'm reminded of Betty Slocum's catch phrase in the BBC situation comedy Are You Being Served "And I am unanimous in that." Its off kilter sense is what makes it funny, even though it's repeated frequently, but not more than once per episode.
There are rhetorical terms for repetition though, "battologia, vain repetition," "homiologia, tedious and inane repetition," generally considered vices. As there's also rhetorical terms for the vice of foul language, one species: "cacemphaton, an expression that is either foul of ill sounding." Silva Rhetoricae. When foul language is a rhetorical vice or a virtue is a matter of discretionary judgment that might not agree between a writer and her readers.
Foul language is tricky. It can readily put readers' noses out of joint. My general sense of when it's inappropriate is when it's used gratuitously. Like when a newly come of age writer fascinated with using foul language inflicts it on everyone who no longer will chastise him for it. The F-bomb once in every four words in some stories I've read in workshops and at least one other of a variety of foul words once in four. There's not much meaning in half of the words of a story in homiological cacemphaton. What a waste of real estate.
Foul words in a screenplay earn audience restrictions. Just once of a foul word's occurrence in a screenplay raises its rating from PG to PG-13. More than once, higher. Smoking and adult situations as well as brief depictions of gratuitous violence or sex situations will raise a PG rating too.
There's no formal rating system for literature, per se, like there is for motion pictures. But language, gratuitous sex or violence, drug use, single parent families, and a long list of "edgy" seeming situations will earn library association restrictions, and are restricted in some publications and contests, like Writers of the Future's implicit PG-13 rating.
When foul language works for me, in reading anyway, is when it's judicious in quantity and quality and has qualities beyond the mere shock value of the words. Like when used to show a character as uncouth, depicting a loathesome character in an adversarial role by demonizing him with Strong Language, demonstrating the personal failings of an empathetic character, or when used as an unexpected epithet by a character, focal or auxilliary, to express a strong emotional reaction.
The short story we've been discussing in the second week of Short Story Discussions, Hatrack Groups, Kij Johnson's "26 Monkeys, Also the Abyss" has one foul word in an appropriate situation, BS. It's timely used and appropriate for the context and situation, in my estimation, and falls late in the story's timeline.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited December 10, 2009).]
"I mean, isn't the point of reading to see inside of people you might not otherwise understand?"
True, I wouldn't hang out with a serial killer, but I would read about him. Swearing is different, we're authors and words are our craft. Swear words are powerful words used to create strong negative reactions. Some people are fine with swear words in a story and some hate them. Why alienate part of your audience unless it's for a real good reason?
I don't think having your characters swear is off limits but I think it should only be used if there isn't a better way. I'd say use swearing with caution, avoid it altogether if possible, and don't overuse it.
But this could be a demographic thing. I loved American Gods.
I do agree with extrinsic though - if your story is for a YA audience you should be sure to keep it PG.
I also see nothing wrong in using catch phrases with certain characters to reveal mannerisms. I've used this technique with children in my books. Phrases like "Are ya gonna eat that?" or "I gotta go to the house." I've run into people off-&-on throughout my life that have a favorite catch phrase or two they use at least in any given conversation, and sometimes they don't even realize it. It's part of human nature, and I'd think it would add more realism to some characters in writing stories... but not to the point of being distracting for the reader.
Even people who swear a lot will often modify their speech in varied situations. I work around a bunch of former sailors who clean up their speech around me, sometimes catching themselves short or letting something slip and then apologizing. Its funny because it really doesn't bother me, but I'm female and don't swear, so they make the effort. And not all sailors "swear like a sailor". The worst two offenders here never served a day in their lives.
As for repeated catch phrases, perhaps that's something your beta readers will notice. It's hard to judge how much is too much without reading it. There's a phrase in the book I'm reading now (The Bourne Identity) that is quite irritating because its used so often. If I could give Ludlum feedback, that would be high on the list.
[This message has been edited by MrsBrown (edited December 10, 2009).]
It's a judgment call, but repeating has to be done with moderation or it will pull the reader out of the story, and I think that's the key. You want to keep the reader immersed.
catchphrases for certain characters is like giving them certain mannerisms. If this is how they sound, then that's what should be in their dialogue. The big and tricky line to walk with this, though, is to make sure you're not trying to make it sound *too* much like natural speech, because natural speech written down is pretty annoying to read. Rambles, interruptions, lots of pauses with nonsense syllables to save one's place in the speaking queue, etc.
I'm reading a book called WRITING THE BREAKOUT NOVEL by Donald Maass, and there's a great bit in there about the emotional tone set by certain characters, and how sometimes a character is annoying in speech or mannerism, but if that serves the story's purpose, then it's okay to annoy the readers. At least a bit.
I'm reminded of the emotional tone set in the fifth Harry Potter book, when Harry's entering puberty (not that the author says that, but it's the right timing for his age) and life is upside-down and he feels angry and left out and frustrated. This is mostly accomplished through his dialogue and the deep penetration 3rd person POV details the author shares with us. The whole book feels like that, to the point where i notice when reading that book (i've read it many times) that I'm on edge, a little more snappish, etc. Think about that - how effective is that writer to have engaged me on such an emotional level that I'm feeling and thinking that way just from reading a book? This ties in with another post up right now (Cry Baby) talking about eliciting an emotional reaction from yourself while writing.
Another book we've read recently by Lloyd Alexander has a character with a specific thing she does in her dialog. I'm blanking on the specific name of the book, but it's the first book in a series called The Book of Three. The word Prydain is in the title but I don't recall it exactly. At any rate, the main character, a 12ish year old boy, meets up with a girl of similar age. The girl has this technique of using really outlandish but funny and appropriate metaphors throughout her dialog. It really distinguishes her. For instance, there's once when she was reacting to something horrible by saying (paraphrased), "That's the worst thing I think I've ever heard. It's like standing on your head to make yourself grow taller!" She also continually remarks about how the boy main character doesn't seem to know much for his station (assistant pig keeper) and otherwise makes jokes about his job but in a completely straight-faced kind of way. It's an excellent way to anchor that character. When she speaks, you know it's her, there's hardly any need for dialog tags.
At any rate, I think giving conversational tics to a character is fine, but you should be cautious to stick to something not too annoying (unless annoyance is your intent) and don't try to mimic natural speech too much.
As for swearing, in sci-fi, some groups have found success in just making up a swear word (e.g., frak in Battlestar Gallactica.) It can be problematic if over done, but I personally like the way they use it because it seems so real (certain characters use it more than others, some never say it, etc.) Others make up slang uses for words that we all already know - like Shiny in Firefly/Serenity (as a positive exclamation. "We're going to go to some random off world outpost." "Oooh! Shiny! I wonder if they have new dresses there.")
Otherwise you can always stick with the old standby "He cursed under his breath." Or "He shouted out a curse." or that sort of thing. That would give us the flavor without having to put people through swearwords if they're not into that. Maybe some combination of both is appropriate?
Whenever I use profanity in fiction, I remind myself of Gary A. Braunbeck's main point in a Look What I Found In My Brain article.
quote:
Profanity, at its core, is best used as violence without action.
Readers react to profanity and violence much the same way. You'll offend readers if you can't prove that enduring the vulgarity will help them appreciate the story.
A paraphrased passage of a verbatim recordation;
[Q] Okay. Now, uh, you know, like, before the break, you'd said "The tire came out of nowhere," you didn't actually see it come out from underneath the truck in front of you?
[A] Huh-uh. See, like, the driver of the truck, I got that from him. It all happened so fast.
[Q] Okay. So then you didn't actually observe the tire before it struck your car, right? Is that correct?
[A] Uh-huh.
[Q] You have to say yes or no. Discourse markers don't have any meaning in written form. Me and the other attorneys will argue 'til the cows come home over whether an umh-huh or huh-hum means yes or no.
[A] Okay.
[Q] Okay--wait. Let me clear that up for the record. Yes, you didn't see the tire before it struck your car?
[A] Right.
[Q] Is that a yes?
[A] Yes.
[Q] You didn't see the tire before it struck your car?
[A] Okay, all ready. Yes, like, I didn't actually see the tire before it struck my car. All right?
[Q] Okay. Well, we beat that dead horse didn't we. Moving on.
[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited December 10, 2009).]
For me, I don't have the same visceral response as I would to standard American curses, but they also don't feel like replacement words- like when people say fudge.
In the Wheel of Time Series, there was at least one gal who always pulled her braid. That seemed like lazy slacking.
It's all a matter of style and taste.
People do have verbal tics and mannerisms but as with all characterisation the trick is not to overdo it - what Damon Knight (I think) called "funny hat" characterisation. By which he meant that, if every time a supporting character came on, they demonstrated their particular individual character tic just to differentiate them from anyone else, it was about equivalent to someone wearing a funny hat all the time, so that the only thing you notice or remember is the funny hat.
Btw, that character is lying about his identity. But he is trustworthy on the subject that he says "Trust me" about.
But, hey, write your story the way you feel it needs to be written. Let those stooges in marketing worry about who to sell it to.
I've decided to take a somewhat middle of the line approach in regards to both repetition and vulgarity. I'll be cutting out some of the 'catch phrases' in my second draft, and likely some of the vulgarity. My goal isn't to make the novel readable by children -- No, it would more than likely be an R rated movie -- But I don't want to go too over-the-top with it either.
Ahh, writing is such a balancing act!