I'm working on a story called "Cundiyo" about a woman who finds herself stuck in the middle of nowhere, the small isolated northern New Mexican villiage of Cundiyo, where her husband moved the family to open a studio and art gallery in Santa Fe. When her husband is on his deathbed with cancer he makes a devastating confession that he has been having a longtime affair with his gallery business partner, with whom he had a child. The family returns to Cundiyo, after taking his body back to New York for burial, and discover the studio has been robbed and the gallery willed to the mistress/business partner. With nothing but an old adobe house in Cundiyo to her name, the main character takes a job teaching at the 'one room' school that serves the surrounding area in order to support her three children. To cope with her feelings of being used, abandoned, frightened and an outsider she often retreats to the ruins of an ancient pueblo on the hill above her home. Here she begins to have 'mystical' experiences where she sees an Indian woman going through the motions of her daily life in the pueblo. The woman is aware of her and at first says nothing, but with time the main character sees the pueblo as it once was and the two become each other's confidants. I want to tell this story in the main character's voice. What are the pros and cons of doing this? What should I be careful to avoid? Is this a bad idea? What works could I look at to get a better feel for this kind of thing? Thanks!
Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :
I'm not sure what your asking. What do you mean, specifically, when you say the main characters voice? I assume you mean from her point of view/perspective...in 3rd person or 1st person?
Honestly though my main advice is usually going to be go with what seems right to you, and tweak it as you go.
Also, short story or novel?
Posted by chalkdustfairy (Member # 9175) on :
I'm thinking first person. For instance, I'm thinking of a scene where she is in bed looking up at the rough timber ceiling of the doby thinking how some decisions in life, such as who to love, become such epic choices. This is a novel.
[This message has been edited by chalkdustfairy (edited July 26, 2010).]
Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :
Sounds pretty normal to me. 1st person sounds like a good idea for the impression I'm getting of what you want to achieve. I'm almost finished with my second-ever attempt at writing a 1st persons story. Its worked quite well as the story is very internal in nature.
So, I'm still a little puzzled...what is it your worried about? Or are you just looking for general advice?
Posted by JenniferHicks (Member # 8201) on :
One of the main pros of first person POV is that it allows you to put the reader right into the character's head; you can play more with developing a distinctive voice. On the other hand, you cannot stray into other characters' heads or narrate scenes in which that character is not present.
Mostly, it's a matter of what you feel comfortable writing and what sounds best to you.
Posted by axeminister (Member # 8991) on :
I think it sounds like a great story.
As for POV, you have to do what comes natural. The "voice" of the story has to come from you and to you. If it doesn't, then simply start typing. Hopefully after a chapter you'll know if it feels right or if you need to switch.
Editors sometimes ask the story to be changed. That's gotta hurt.
Axe
Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :
The main thing to consider with first person POV is this: that everything in the entire novel must then be either directly happening to/experienced by the main character. If important plot points or actions occur and she is not there, you have a major problem.
However the outline that you give above would pretty much indicate that this is a novel entirely about the main character, and her emotional journey, and thus first person would seem entirely suitable.
Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :
Also, there are those who feel that a change in person say, across chapters, isn't necessarily the end of the world anyway. But yeah it doesnt seem like that'd even be a consideration for what your describing.
Posted by chalkdustfairy (Member # 9175) on :
I'm worried I'm biting off more than I can chew in trying to do this- through-out the entire novel. It's not my usual style. I'm also worried that it might get old. I need to see how someone else has done this, especially when another character, like the Indian woman, comes into play. I can hear the main character talking, not really telling the story, but talking. Do I just write what I hear and hope she gets around to that? I would appreciate any ideas, examples or suggestions of things to read to get a better feel for first person. Thanks!
Posted by walexander (Member # 9151) on :
One of the only problems you'll have to overcome is present to past conversation, because she's a teacher does she speak the language of the native american woman? It's rare that outsiders are taught the complete language. This is how the Japanese could not break our codes in world war II. Remember different tribes have different dialects. Is it the magic of the place that grants them understanding of each other? There will have to be a reason that will make sense in the long run. In what time period is the native american. Are there foreigner's yet, what level of invasion is it at? Have other languages spread yet. In modern day, native American's are still very superstitious. Each tribe has there own set of ceremonies of how to rid yourself of evil spirits. Older tribesmen may not even talk to you until you've been through one. As a possible teacher of there children there will be pressure to conform to some of the ceremonies. If the character starts saying she's seeing something they will think the worst(Evil Demon) before thinking the best. To them evil has easy access to the world and is more prevalent than the forces of good which usually require some right of passage to find. I don't know you, but if your native american, or part, or live directly next a reservation, I'm sure these things will be easier to sort out. If your not, you have a lot of research ahead of you to get it right.
I know more than the average outsider, but only hint at things of the native americans because its hard to get it right. Though you can find things on the web and books, this really doesn't speak at all to what there lives are like on reservation and customs still in practice to date. What ever tribe you decide on I see road trip in your future. That's if you want to get it right. You can also attempt to contact someone who runs one of the websites, explain what your attempting, and try and get them to be your expert in the field, and drain them of all the research possible, but again not the same as going directly to the source and seeing and feeling everything for yourself.
The story sound interesting,
My 2cent,
W.
Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :
quote:Do I just write what I hear and hope she gets around to that?
This is what I would suggest. Especially if you've thought about the possible issues and tried to find pre-plotted solutions for them with no success.
Its basically what I'm doing with my first-person story...although it is a prequel of sorts, so I knew a lot of what was going to happen. I've let the story be the guide, so to speak...but then, I'm a big believer in listening to your muses and your own creativity.
Posted by chalkdustfairy (Member # 9175) on :
Walexander, this is an Anasazi ruin (like Mesa verde) though very small, so I'm thinking pre-Puebloan natives. As for the people who live in the village now, they are the descendants of Spanish/Mexican Colonial homesteading families, however, the main character would still be considered an outsider. I don't know how I will handle the language issue. I'm up for suggestions. This relationship with the Anasazi woman is important because the main character has, or feels she has no one to talk to. So it's very important that they are able to understand each other. Perhaps they each think the other is a figment of their imagination; no one else sees them. Perhaps circumstances in both their lives makes them each think, separately, that they are either crazy, soon going to be crazy, or that everyone else thinks they are crazy! And so they accept this new development as a matter of course. I don't know.
[This message has been edited by chalkdustfairy (edited July 26, 2010).]
Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :
if its a supernatural occurence...which I assume it is...then thats really explanation enough although you will want to address that, probably in the characters thoughts, at some point. As in "Even though we shouldn't share a common language, her words were crystal clear to me" something like that.
Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :
It somewhat depends on what you want to do. If you actually want to have fun with their slow attempt to learn to communicate without a shared language, then you can mine that, but my personal feeling is that it's hard going and likely to distract you from what you really want to do with this work.
To clarify my earlier point on POV - Merlion is right to say that it is common for multipple POVs to be used, usually (but not always) with the POV changing at chapter breaks, but it is MUCH less commonly used - and much harder to do well - if th main narrative is in first person. First person is much more immersive for a reader and the switch out to another perspective, with greater distance (which even deep third person has) is likely to jar a reader.
All things CAN be done, as long as you recognise the advantages and disadvantages of them, and understand why you have made any such choices.
Posted by chalkdustfairy (Member # 9175) on :
Okay, I think I'm just going to dive into this first person. You all had good points and advice and were very helpful. Thanks!
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Another thing to watch out for with first person is that if you want the point of view character to come across as virtuous in some way, you have to figure out how to show it without the character thinking she is virtuous (which ruins the whole idea and can make the character seem to be bragging and egotistical).
Stephenie Meyer had trouble with this for her Twilight Series first person point of view character, Bella Swan, who is very self-sacrificing, but didn't think of herself that way.
Because Meyer hadn't learned how to convey that when she started out in TWILIGHT, many readers have tended to perceive Bella as whiny and wishy-washy.
For my part as a reader, though I didn't perceive Bella as whiny, etc, I didn't recognize her self-sacrificing nature until I read THE HOST, with another such first person point of view character. By the time Meyer wrote THE HOST, she had learned better how to convey her point of view character's good qualities.
Posted by walexander (Member # 9151) on :
CDF,
Least you get some latitude by using the Anasazi. Not a lot is known about them. Everything is guess work. A lot of superstition and myth surrounds what happened to them so look for your readers to be interested in what your point of view of who they were and any hints of what happened to them are.
But also it can be limiting. It's almost impossible to write out the native woman talking without having her being directly understood.
You can't write out in actual-- Anasazi "Who are you." Because no one knows the language, but because the Anasazi aren't fictional ether it's hard to just make then have a new language like Klingon. But now you're in the in between, like Tolkien did with his elves and dwarfs in the LOTR's a created language based on other real languages, and I know most would say take the easy path, and it's not hard to find a magic reason they can understand each other, the reason I say invest some time into research is. Even if your MC can directly understand her it may not come out as she thought, and may still have to decipher them.
Example:
To apologize Navajo phrase: Shaa nídiní'aah The literal definition is "take it off for me." This phrase is not commonly heard on the Navajo reservation. There is no real way of saying "I'm sorry" in Navajo. No word for "forgive me" exists. People will describe how they're feeling when they make motions to apologize, like "doo ayóo shi áhót'ée da" (I feel differently), "t'áá na'níle'dii bich'i' haasdzíí'" (I spoke foolishly or too rash), or "baa shíni'" (I feel bad about it). Navajos joke that this is the reason grudges among Navajos exist for a long time.
Think about it. There are funny places the story can go. If one person is meaning 'I'm sorry', but its coming out 'take it off for me.' then latter in trying to understand it's true meaning by comparing it to another dialect. She could realizes she wasn't being ask to take off her clothes but the woman was apologizing she didn't understand her well.
You may do the research and end up needing none of it, but you might find little unique things that could really put the story over the top.
The little details I do believe make the difference between a good story and a great one. The same as I'm constantly reminded of how that comma put in the wrong place messes up the sentence. I think I already mentioned how I hate punctuation, but I still have to put in the time to learn it, the right way, Grrr.
Just my 2cents, but good luck which ever way it heads.
W.
Posted by Meredith (Member # 8368) on :
quote:To apologize Navajo phrase: Shaa nídiní'aah The literal definition is "take it off for me." This phrase is not commonly heard on the Navajo reservation. There is no real way of saying "I'm sorry" in Navajo. No word for "forgive me" exists. People will describe how they're feeling when they make motions to apologize, like "doo ayóo shi áhót'ée da" (I feel differently), "t'áá na'níle'dii bich'i' haasdzíí'" (I spoke foolishly or too rash), or "baa shíni'" (I feel bad about it). Navajos joke that this is the reason grudges among Navajos exist for a long time.
I'll just throw in a tidbit from an entirely different American Indian group. Among Indians of the Pacific Northwest (Tlingit, Kwakiutl, for example), you don't say thank you. Doing something for another person gives them (to use a concept from an entirely different culture) "face"--honor and prestige. Saying thank you takes that away. So, in that culture, saying thank you is actually rude.
Sometimes, it's not just a different language. It's a whole different way of looking at the world.
Posted by walexander (Member # 9151) on :
I concur with M.
W.
Posted by Merlion-Emrys (Member # 7912) on :
Just for the record, I think doing some research for this is a great idea, but I also think having the two characters be able to-basically-understand each other would, probably be for the best.
Remember though, even magical translation may be imperfect and as my Lovely Assistant mentions, language aside drastically different world views can be probably even more difficult to communciate across.
Posted by chalkdustfairy (Member # 9175) on :
(I was going to ask "What does CDF mean?" AND THEN I realized that was me, Chalkdustfairy! No, I'm not blonde.)
So if the MC is driven by commitment and perseverance it is better demonstrated rather than spoken about.
Again with the language issue: I was actually more serious than I came across when I mentioned the women thinking they are figments of each other's imaginations. If I established that is what they each THINK is happening, do you still think it would be a lame explanation of why they can understand each other? I admit to liking that premise. The MC is trying to hold everything together in a difficult situation. What if the Anasazi woman is in a similar situation? Maybe she is the young wife of the aging leader of this little band, and he's slowly going crazy- and stubbornly making the group stay in a place that is dangerous and indefensible, or suffering from drought conditions and deforestation or something, to their perile.
I would appreciate any ideas, examples or suggestions of things to read to get a better feel for first person. Thanks!