This is topic Is spending more money worth it? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


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Posted by Brooke18 (Member # 10220) on :
 
I'm STILL struggling with the decision to go with a literary agent and the traditional publisher or go the self-publishing way!

I just can't figure out what to do.

I have thought that by getting a good literary agent and publishing with a fairly well-known traditional publisher, I could get more attention for my book faster. If it's published through a publisher that is trusted and liked, wouldn't the book be more likely to be picked up and read?

On the other hand, I'm on a limited budget. I have thought about skipping the time-consuming, possibly high-cost traditional publisher for the self-publishing option. However, if I do that and save money but publish with a quieter self-publishing company (or do it COMPLETELY by myself-which I don't approve of for my first book unless I need to). Wouldn't doing that mean that my book might take a longer time on the shelves before someone decides to give it a shot?

This is all excluding the possibility that my book is really good and is instantly picked up, which I know is a highly unlikely possibility.

Any suggestions, thoughts, or insisting is greatly appreciated and welcome!
 
Posted by JSchuler (Member # 8970) on :
 
Aside from the cost of sending a manuscript by mail (assuming the publisher doesn't accept e-subs), what makes traditional publishing more expensive? I thought the rule was that money should always flow towards the author.

Self-publishing, meanwhile, would mean paying for any editing, proofreading, and cover design out of pocket. Also, don't think hardcover or paperback. If you're self-publishing, you probably want to look to ebooks as your primary medium. So look to the 800lb gorilla in the room, and that's Amazon.
 
Posted by Brooke18 (Member # 10220) on :
 
In traditional publishing that's what should happen but then, there's publishing packages. For example, when I sent my manuscript out about a month ago (with the intention of going with traditional publishing) I received a call from a publisher who said that the base fee for a package was $2,000.

Eventually, I found out that the publisher wasn't recommended via Preditors and Editors. I need a package or fork out money to pay a literary agent by the hour and that's also a matter of time too.

If I go with a literary agent, I will have a lot of extra time to wait on them to send it to a publisher and so on.

I really want the book out there now but, regardless, I need professional editing before I can do that, whether it be from an agent or service. Money is an issue either way, but I don't know if I want to wait.

The whole process on self-publishing vs traditional publishing says the same thing no matter where I go, but either I still don't fully understand it or I need someone to walk me through it.

Geez, I guess I just realized how much of an amateur writer I am! Impatient too!

Oh, and you're right about publishing in ebook, but most of all, I just want to be able to hold an old-fashioned hardcover/paperback copy of the book in my hands. If I can find someone who will publish in both that'd be cool, but if I can't then as long as I can get one physical copy I'll be fine.
 
Posted by JSchuler (Member # 8970) on :
 
quote:
Oh, and you're right about publishing in ebook, but most of all, I just want to be able to hold an old-fashioned hardcover/paperback copy of the book in my hands. If I can find someone who will publish in both that'd be cool, but if I can't then as long as I can get one physical copy I'll be fine. [/QB]
Shouldn't be a problem with on-demand printing. Amazon has a subsidiary called CreateSpace that does it.
 
Posted by MAP (Member # 8631) on :
 
Traditional publishing does not charge the author. You do not pay literary agents either. Both the publisher and the agent take a portion of the sales of the book. Traditional publishing shouldn't cost you anything up front.

If a publisher or agent ask for money from you, run away. They are most likely scamming you.

The decision to self-publish or go the traditional route is a tough one. There are pluses and minuses to both. Do the research. Read up on both sides, and do what feels right for you.

Good luck.
 
Posted by Brooke18 (Member # 10220) on :
 
Thanks JSchuler. I didn't know they did that too.

MAP, that makes a little more sense to me.

Have either of you published before? If so, which way did you go: traditional or self?
 
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
 
Literary agents do not charge for services on an advance fee basis. Any that do are crooks and predators preying on naive writers, in the first place, and in the second place, unlikely to ever place a product for publication with a traditional publisher. Legitimate agents earn their fees once they've placed a book for publication and begin receiving royalties on behalf of a writer client.

The royalty checks go to the agent, if agented, and should require writer co-signature for check redemption. The agent takes out the agreed-upon commission up front: 10 to 30 percent. 10 percent is generally when the agency does little more than place a product and manage royalty payments. 30 percent is when the agency provides all services a writer needs, including editorial input, writer marketing and publicity services, and business management.

Many science fiction and fantasy publishers do not require an agent submission. Dor, DAW, Baen, Bantam, Penguin, and so on, accept unsolicited unagented submissions.

You want print copies of your novel but don't in general want them released for publication distribution and don't want to expend much money? Use Lulu.com. CreateSpace similarly does POD manufacturing; however, CreateSpace is dedicated to distribution and comes with overbearing spam advertising "offers."

Compose your manuscript in Word, prepare the cover in JPEG and upload both for conversion to PDF and manufacture, or convert the Word file to PDF for typeface options. PDF embeds fonts that the Print On Demand manufacturer might not have resident on their system, so that the printer outputs a manuscript in its intended typeface. Order one copy in case cover and one in trade paperback. Do not release for distribution. Barb's your aunt. At the total cost of two books. Or as many as you want for memento and gift purposes, for personal distribution, for personal sales. etc.

Case cover (hardback) and trade paperback are identical formats anymore except for the end boards of the case cover. Both are perfect bound, meaning the spine is glue bound instead of the traditional stitched binding of bygone eras.

So a file formated for trade paperback will also fit case cover. The basic page (leaf) template for that is 6 inches width by 9 inches height. Margins vary, the standard is 1 inch top, right, left, and bottom. Full justified paragraph style.

A list of other Standard Publication Format formatting options different from Standard Manuscript Format:

6 inch page width
9 inch page height
1 inch to 3/4ths inch margins all around
12 point Old Style book typeface (not Times New Roman, which is a newspaper typeface and too cramped for book aesthetics) Caslon, Jensen, Goudy, etc., are examples of Old Style book typefaces.
Full left and right justification paragraph style, the last line of each paragraph will be left justified automatically
Chapter opening paragraphs are traditionally unindented and with a drop cap.
Subsequent paragraphs are indented using a global paragraph style to indent two em spaces.
Page numbering is set to outside of page
Header info typically for novels is author name verso (left facing page) centered top of page parallel with page number, novel title recto (right facing page) Alternatively, chapter or book titles may replace either
Book Line spacing is generally .85, total full page text lines number 44
Shy hyphens, which means words are broken with a hyphen at logical syllable breaks
Half page sink for chapter openings, meaning half page no body text, half page body text: chapter headings and illustrations or epigraphs, etc., may occupy the top half

These are basic formatting guidelines, Many more are used by publishers and are available in Word, WordPerfect, and other dedicated publishing software, such as Adobe Acrobat, InDesign, and CorelDraw suites. Word, though, will suffice.

I have published books, magazines, newspapers, chapbooks, pamphlets, brochures, etc. Some my own work, some self-published, some published under other publishers. I have dress-rehearsed Lulu and CreateSpace, published with print job shops and traditional publishers.

[ April 08, 2014, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
 
Posted by Meredith (Member # 8368) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brooke18:
In traditional publishing that's what should happen but then, there's publishing packages. For example, when I sent my manuscript out about a month ago (with the intention of going with traditional publishing) I received a call from a publisher who said that the base fee for a package was $2,000.

Any publisher that asks for money up front is a vanity publisher and likely more interested in draining your bank account than actually publishing or distributing your book. Run. Fast.

quote:
If I go with a literary agent, I will have a lot of extra time to wait on them to send it to a publisher and so on.
No reputable agent charges fees up front. As extrinsic says, a reputable agent will take a commission out of payments from the publisher to the author. Usually 20%.

quote:
I really want the book out there now but, regardless, I need professional editing before I can do that, whether it be from an agent or service. Money is an issue either way, but I don't know if I want to wait.
Now, if you choose to self-publish, professional editing is one of the things you will need to pay for yourself, up front. There are other services which you might choose to pay for or do yourself, like cover design and formatting. (Formatting is so easy, I don't know why anyone pays for it, but some people do.) And then there's marketing (where I really struggle). But, you're likely going to have to figure out some marketing anyway, even with a traditional publisher.

quote:
The whole process on self-publishing vs traditional publishing says the same thing no matter where I go, but either I still don't fully understand it or I need someone to walk me through it.
Ask your questions here. Also, start reading Writer Beware. Pick an agent or two and read their blogs. PubRants is a good one, but there are plenty of others. If you're at all considering self-publishing, read Susan Kaye Quinn's blog.

Learning all this stuff is as much a part of the process as learning the craft of writing.

quote:
Geez, I guess I just realized how much of an amateur writer I am! Impatient too!
Then you really need to think hard about traditional publishing. It's likely your book wouldn't end up on bookstore shelves for two to three years. Probably longer.

quote:
Oh, and you're right about publishing in ebook, but most of all, I just want to be able to hold an old-fashioned hardcover/paperback copy of the book in my hands. If I can find someone who will publish in both that'd be cool, but if I can't then as long as I can get one physical copy I'll be fine.
As said before, CreateSpace or Lulu can give you that. Paperback, anyway.
 
Posted by JSchuler (Member # 8970) on :
 
quote:
You want print copies of your novel but don't in general want them released for publication distribution and don't want to expend much money? Use Lulu.com. CreateSpace similarly does POD manufacturing; however, CreateSpace is dedicated to distribution and comes with overbearing spam advertising "offers."

Hmm. When I price the two out, CreateSpace seems to cost half as much as Lulu for one-offs, and is still cheap in comparison even if ordering 100,000 copies. Am I missing anything besides needing a spam catcher account to manage it?
 
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
 
A literary agent conversation with an acquisition editor?

Hi, Bob. How's the family? Mine? Okay. You know. Great time we had in Chicago last month. Say, I've got a new project from an unknown author-- Wait, Bob, see, this is different. The voice will knock your ditch in the dirt. The characters, wow, you wouldn't believe it. The plot is tight. Right up your alley, ripe for your house. The pitch? Okay.

A reluctant amateur detective takes on sheriff department corruption. The sleuth's car was broken into by the sheriff's son and robbed of DVR player, speakers, and discs to the tune of a thousand dollars damages, felony weight. The guy tracked the son to his house from muddy footprints. He reported the theft and his evidence to a deputy, not knowing the thief was the son of the sheriff. The deputy took the information, asked if the guy had insurance, and said, well, not much hope of an arrest or return on your loss. We can't prosecute on citizen evidence--Yeah, bullsputt, but the story's convincing, the way the deputy wants to keep this under wraps and bullies the guy into submission--The deputy says, If you don't care enough to insure your property, there's not much we can do. The guy makes a complaint to the sheriff and the deputies harrass the guy to the point of intolerance. Yeah, it wraps up completely with a twist or two along the way.

True story? The author says it is from personal experience but "dramatized." Yeah, fiction.

Okay. I'll shoot you the manuscript. By the way, other houses are looking at it too. I think this one will go to auction. First bid right now is $25,000 advance against royalties. I'm sure it will go higher. Thanks, Bob.
 
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by JSchuler:
quote:
You want print copies of your novel but don't in general want them released for publication distribution and don't want to expend much money? Use Lulu.com. CreateSpace similarly does POD manufacturing; however, CreateSpace is dedicated to distribution and comes with overbearing spam advertising "offers."

Hmm. When I price the two out, CreateSpace seems to cost half as much as Lulu for one-offs, and is still cheap in comparison even if ordering 100,000 copies. Am I missing anything besides needing a spam catcher account to manage it?
I have personal trust issues with CreateSpace. Until recently, if not still, for example, they charged the same total manufacturing costs as Lulu, only hid al la carte add ons, like manufacturing cost markup, that Lulu has always included up front.

Lulu offers "casewrap" and "dustcover" hardbacks. Casewrap has cover art printed on a glued-on cover wrap. Dustcover is a traditional fabric-covered fiberboard bound book with cover art on a printed slip cover. I don't believe CreateSpace offers any hardbacks.

[ April 09, 2014, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
 
Posted by Denevius (Member # 9682) on :
 
These scams only work because people are in a rush to publish. And, as I've mentioned before, it's cheaper if you just go through all the steps on your own with your novel. No one who's offering you anything beyond a bound book is telling you the truth. On their end, there will be no advertising except a small mention in some obscure place; there will be no networking, your book will not end up on any bookshelf of any bookstore (or any other type of store).

Simply put, you *will* be ripped off.

But seriously, every step you can do with your own resources. You can hire someone to do the typesetting, you can apply for ISBNs, you can get a barcode, you can contract with a printer (the most expensive part of the whole process), who will then ship the books to you (the second most expensive part of the process); you can set up book-signings at local bookstores (the ones that still exist), or on college and university campuses, or at local fairs, or *anywhere* that allows you to rent a booth. Your local library will probably stock your book for a time if you go through one of the two main vendors (both names of which I've forgotten, but an easy google search will yield that); your local bookstores, also for a time, will stock one or two of your books. Local communities like to help local artists.

Just keep in mind that you will *not* get rich, and you probably won't make back as much as you spend. But you will also not have wasted your money on con men.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but in 2014 in the U.S., I don't understand how these cons are still working. In poorer countries, these steps I listed are somewhat beyond the common person, but in the U.S., there's no reason why vanity presses should still be able to operate. Like, at all, and the only reason they do is because those presses promise getting rich quick with minimal effort.
 
Posted by Kent_A_Jones (Member # 10234) on :
 
Brooke18,
I was told by my college professor that I should not rush to publish, but not because of style or mechanical problems. He said that I should have at least one hundred thousand words of publishable copy in hand before making the attempt. Why? When a publisher finally offers a contract, it is because they believe the work will sell, and when it does, they will want more - right now. I am personally starting with contests that are free to enter in order to gauge my own ability while my stories improve.

My advice, if you simply MUST be published ASAP, is to read publisher submission guidelines, adhere to them exactly, and submit to as many places as you can. Go the inexpensive route, because good stories will be noticed. You should define your own strategy and stick to it until your work is accepted.
Good luck,
Kent
 
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by JSchuler:
Aside from the cost of sending a manuscript by mail (assuming the publisher doesn't accept e-subs), what makes traditional publishing more expensive? I thought the rule was that money should always flow towards the author.

Listen to JSchuler, Brooke18.

If someone is trying to get you to pay them to be your agent (aside from the percentage an agent gets once you are paid by the publisher), run away from them very fast, and change all your locks.

The same goes for someone who claims to be a "traditional publisher" who wants you to pay them to publish your work.

Agents and publishers who are legitimate are not that easy to do business with, and you have to have something worth THEIR time and money.
 
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kent_A_Jones:
Brooke18,
I was told by my college professor that I should not rush to publish, but not because of style or mechanical problems. He said that I should have at least one hundred thousand words of publishable copy in hand before making the attempt. Why? When a publisher finally offers a contract, it is because they believe the work will sell, and when it does, they will want more - right now. I am personally starting with contests that are free to enter in order to gauge my own ability while my stories improve.

You might be interested to know that Brandon Sanderson wrote ten novels before he felt he had written one that was good enough to send to publishers (and that novel was ELANTRIS).

Kent is sharing good advice here. Please listen.
 


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