quote:The response sounds flippant, but it's not meant to be. But since there are no other options to post at, I post in the fragments and feedback sections.
So, why do you post in the Fragments and Feedback sections,
quote:Writing exercises in general help, though with everything else in life, it depends on what you can take from it on a personal level. However, as I have stated more than once, the openings I post on Hatrack have at times not been the true openings of a story because on Hatrack, I learned what the general response will be (and they usually are the same), and so I post an opening that will limit those particular responses.
how has posting and feedback helped you,
quote:To answer this second part of the question:
I think it can encourage certain bad habits both of critique and writing. On the critique side it encourages nitpicking, pet peevery, critiquing an imagined manuscript rather than the page in front of you, and stylistic priggishness. On the writing end it can encourage overwrought prose where writers actually need to think about streamlining.
quote:This is tricky. As Lamberguesa noted:
how can we do a better job of helping you with your writing through these sections?
quote:This is a very simply designed workshopping website. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does limit the type of ways to control the submissions process beyond the 13 line requirement.
While we're at it, I suppose it'd be worth mentioning that my first impression of the forums was that they look very dated. So much so that I had to double check the time stamps on a few posts to convince myself that people were still active here. Maybe it's not a huge deal. I can understand why forums such as these don't need all the bells and whistles like avatars and signatures and pictures and hyperlinks and the like. Still it seems very silly that Kathleen can't even make a topic "sticky" at the top. This is pretty standard for most forums. Even the visual aspect of the sight may be offputting for potential new members.
quote:ANSWER: We do have a place to post story outlines. Outlines, synopses, proposals, query letters, and other such things are more than welcome in the Fragment and Feedback sections, and (tada!) they are not restricted to the 13 line rule.
Originally posted by Lamberguesa:
One question I have (and please let me know if this is the wrong place to ask it) is why don't we have a place to post story outlines? That might help get people more involved in the writing process and interested in a story someone is working on.
quote:Even on bustling sites, lurkers are met with derision. I commented on this before, but this site definitely has a *more* active lurking community than visible community. You can tell by the way that, generally, a more contentious topic has people coming out of the woodworks to respond.
As a final point I would add that other, less adventurous souls, might be gaining a lot of insight from reading about the travails of those of us extroverts who do post. That might be an interesting exercise in polling the membership, anonymously.
code:I post this response using UBB's "Code" feature to
illustrate "plain wrapper" Standard Manuscript Format, how,
personally, I feel written-word workshop writing should best-
practice visually appear. Writing is only words; that's all
writers have to work with: no visual or social rhetoric, no
interactive media rhetoric, no flashy Broadway marquees'
rhetoric. An environment that requires exclusively writing use
fosters writing skills development.
Film media's spectacle rhetoric certainly influences
writers, how much varies, perhaps according to how much film
viewing time any given writer expends. Film is easy self-
gratification reception, as effortless as being waited on at meal
times. Writers are like chefs, we prepare food for others'
satisfaction.
Open a can and pop the contents into a microwave oven. Shove
a frozen dinner into a toaster oven. Slap two slices of bread
around peanut butter and jelly gobs, PBJ on toast for a "hot"
meal. Are those cooking? Are they comfort satisfying? They are
offhanded nourishment, perhaps empty nutrition. For diners who
eat to self-comfort, they are emotionally empty satisfaction,
more habit than creation. For diners who enjoy culinary stimulus
and nutritious sustenance, they are unforgivable glop.
Many modernists see plain wrapper Courier New typeface text,
like this Code text, and think it is old, out of date, odd, not
flashy enough. Yet the text, once unfamiliarity and feudal
resistance to the format erodes, disappears: if the writing is up
to par in terms of reality imitation. The writing becomes a
sensory cornucopia in which readers participate, vicariously at
least; emotionally stimulated, ideally.
If workshoppers need visual content, social content,
interactive media content, links to embedded external sites, like
Flashbook or Ninjagram or Twaddle or InkedOn -- they are
distractions from writing, and all the other non-writing media.
Sensory spectacle and social rhetoric have their places in
writing culture, in so much as they enhance writer networking
and marketing. The words themselves, though, and their packaging
format standards (manuscript and publication formats) developed
over millennia as most comfortable to human eyes are all that
should matter at a writing workshop site.
Resistance is feudal; come on over, Red Rover, to the bright
and lively, nutritious side of writing.
quote:That which doesn't evolve with the times becomes extinct.
Resistance is feudal
quote:For writers, a better example would be writing utensils. Once, we used our hands to scratch messages, then reeds, then a metal sylus, then quill feather, then lead pencil, then quill pen, then typerwriter, then computer, then laptop.
The hammer hasn't changed since steel became available.
quote:But you wouldn't do this to get greater activity or participation. That wouldn't be your goal as I'm fairly sure that you're totally comfortable with the current state of the site.
If design of Hatrack's visual interface were given to me as CXO -- Chief Experience Officer (cf UX -- User eXperience) experience appeals would be similar to how the design is now,
quote:Ditto.
Originally posted by Grumpy old guy:
I hold a particular disdain for the term Lurkers, as this implies people hiding in the shadows, usually for nefarious purposes.
Phil.
quote:This is exactly what I thought someone say. You equate improving UX to attract new users to bells and whistles without purpose. You dismiss my views so quickly it's disheartening. If any idea I might have is met with such condescension then I am sad to say, this is not the same forum I used to visit back in 2005.
Hammers are in no risk of becoming extinct. Sexy and glamorous hammers, though, contrived to visually appeal, they don't endure.
Today's modernity appeals for newness, more newness, more emotionally empty appeal, more spectacle. more display of wealth, status, prestige will be tomorrow's cliché. There comes a moment, location, and situation of the glass overfilled with empty appeal saturation.
quote:
If design of Hatrack's visual interface were given to me as CXO -- Chief Experience Officer (cf UX -- User eXperience) experience appeals would be similar to how the design is now,
quote:What Denevius said is completely correct. I work in the UX business.
But you wouldn't do this to get greater activity or participation.
quote:Well, gee, has the nail changed at all?
The hammer hasn't changed since steel became available.
quote:I would really like you to point me to the part where I said I wanted to turn this place into Facebook and Instagram. I considered this claim offensive, by the way. I truly did not expect this from you, Kathleen. You're using the same kind of argument extrinsic used, reducing anything I say to an extreme proposition. Here is the part where I mentioned Facebook:
And second, I do use other types of social media, including Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. I don't see how such places could be more helpful to aspiring writers.
quote:I am not even on facebook or twitter since I don't like that silly word limit.
It seems to me people who like the site as it is think the people that ask for a change want to turn this into Facebook or somesuch idiocy. No, far from it.
quote:This, I did not expect from a moderator. I thought I was having a rational discussion.
So, if these are the kinds of more up-to-date venues that you all feel are needed for writers, then could someone please tell me why 140 characters would be better than 13 lines?
quote:And you do a wonderful job as I have stated multiple times. This is a great forum. I have said so many times. I will quote them here since half of the things I say are mangled beyond recognition or ignored.
I submit that things work here the way they do because that is the best I can figure out how to make use of the forum constraints.
quote:
This is the most professional forum I've ever been to. That's why I keep coming. Here is where I would love to make my story better.
quote:Just a fresh look. I haven't thought much about it beyond stating my opinion as an outsider that checks the site a lot and as professional that works with websites, designers and UX Evangelists.
I'm really not sure I understand what you all would like instead.
quote:I agree with this completely. I am telling you, as lurker of the site that this is how the forum feels. And this is how I am feeling now. Unwelcomed and condescended just because I said the site looks dated and it might drive new people away and I think you need new people because the site is stagnant.
But let's face it, the site is fairly stagnant. Same voices, with Extrinsic's voice being by far the most dominant. Same 13 lines, same type of responses. Same revolving door of membership.
quote:I only mentioned reddit to compare its vibrant community to this one. Nothing else.
Just had a look at reddit; I must be more of a Luddite than I normally admit to. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose, but if I'd seen something like that, even if only marginally similar, I wouldn't have bothered lurking around here a bit before I joined.
quote:And that is a great position that I cannot deny. I respect that position, I respect you. Even if you don't respect me by disagreeing with me in the least polite possible way. I will not mock you or take what you say to extremes. I respect that opinion.
I'm the Luddite who likes this site just the way it is--with possibly some submission changes, but that's another issue.
quote:Inaccurate depiction of twitter. Though a single twitter post must fit the 140 characters, you can post 140 characters as many times as you like. On Hatrack, you can *only* post the first 13 lines. If the site were to model twitter, you'd be able to post multiple 13 lines in succession. Besides that fact that twitter allows different forms of media, like photography and videos.
So, if these are the kinds of more up-to-date venues that you all feel are needed for writers, then could someone please tell me why 140 characters would be better than 13 lines?
quote:And that's fine. But I, and others, have.
I've seen no susbtantive claims yet as to why Hatrack ought to change.
quote:That's your opinion, but I, and others, disagree.
Specious arguments for more up-to-date content miss the mark.
quote:Until this comment, I didn't realize that the changes you could make were limited by the parameters of the site that's already in place. I'm not surprised, as the Writer's Workshop has remained *exactly* the same over the years. But I submit, or admit, that I was ignorant of what you could and could not do.
I submit that things work here the way they do because that is the best I can figure out how to make use of the forum constraints.
quote:Perhaps others will, but I have neither the time, patience, or inclination to "persuade you to change". Especially since I know you can go almost ad infinitum adding dense responses all in defense of your opinion. After a number of replies, it starts to feel like I'm taking to a younger person who keeps asking, "Why?", to every answer I give.
I can be persuaded to change, if only the argumentation is persuasive.
quote:you're not even certain about what Denevius is asking.
(I speak for myself here since I think that's all Denevius is asking but I'm not sure).
quote:Thank you, apology accepted.
I apologize for making you think I was mocking you. I really am trying to figure out what you all are saying.
quote:For a site that is about content, I'm not sure how can you miss what I said before but here it is again:
I see things like "change, change, change" and "this site is outmoded" and yet I don't see any clear (to my mind, at least) explanations of what you all are asking for a change to.
quote:A fresh look is a new design. I'm sorry if my meaning was obscured somehow.
Just a fresh look.
quote:That could've been an option.
Are you suggesting a total revamp of the forum software
quote:Then I see no point in discussing this further. It is not productive for anybody and it is time we could also use to write stories or read. I say this without a drop of sarcasm, I really feel we're wasting everybody's time with something that cannot be changed.
As I have said, I have no control over the software, and therefore, that aspect of the look of the Hatrack River Writers Workshop forum.
quote:It occurs to me that this idea may not be as daft and mischievously outside Hatrack's intent in the first 13 line idea as I first thought (although as no doubt you realise, it's probably tantamount to publishing the whole first chapter and could be a good loss-leading marketing ploy).
Originally posted by Grumpy old guy:
In my current submission in Fragments etc. it is my intention, as I understand it is allowed for in the rules, to eventually post my entire first chapter thirteen lines by thirteen lines.
Phil.
quote:I suggested this in the previous post, but I'll suggest it again here. A variety to the 13 line opening format. We've been doing it for years, and it limits the types of responses one receives in the Fragments section.
But I don't know what you and Denevius are suggesting
quote:Honest people cheat the system when the system seems broken. Posting multiple 13 lines as if they're your opening is cheating the system here.
Your concept of posting each 13 line fragment in a sequence of posts reminds me of those cartoon serials they used to run in newspapers, featuring men with steel jaws, damsels in distress and always in danger of wardrobe malfunction, and Rupert Bear.
quote:I'm unsure to what guidelines you're referencing. However, in the Fragments section, it says:
Actually, Denevius, if you read the submission guidelines, multiple 13 line submissions, as part of a larger work, are allowed provided each is contained within a separate post.
quote:Where are you taking your submission guidelines for Hatrack from?
Then post the first 13 lines. Please do not post more than the first 13 lines of your work in any topic here at Hatrack.
quote:Many publishers will say (yes, I know it's a fabrication) that they give each work they receive a thorough read. Lie or not, I've never seen one that said they stop after the first 13 lines. This is an assumption which isn't based on recorded fact.
The 13 lines rule is for submissions to editors of publishers, not simple critiques.
quote:Really? When was the last time you checked publishers websites. Here in OZ there are three that will accept unsolicited material, provided they conform to their guidelines and genre requirements, and there are regular months where publishers--McMillan, Random House etc.--will accept unsolicited manuscripts for evaluating new and promising writers.
This is why almost all professional publishers don't ask for unsolicited material.
quote:Notice the tiny word topic. pedantry maybe, but legal.
I'm unsure to what guidelines you're referencing. However, in the Fragments section, it says:
quote:
Then post the first 13 lines. Please do not post more than the first 13 lines of your work in any topic here at Hatrack.
quote:Phil, what are you talking about?!? I'm specifically suggesting a change to Hatrack about *it's* 13 line policy. What does SFWA have to do with anything here?
Well then, Denevius, I suppose SFWA doesn't know what they're talking about. Check out their manuscript submission guidelines.
quote:This is more often the case for novels, not short stories. However, ok, even if it is true, I'm unsure what that has to do with the policy of Hatrack staying exclusively to the 13 line opening.
Also, when you submit to an editor it is (usually) accompanied by a query letter or a synopsis so the editor has some grasp of story context.
quote:More often than not, people here will explain what they're going for when posting their 13 lines. Groovy.
Here at Hatrack, people submit 13 lines (half a page of courier 12pt with lines double-spaced) without any context; which is something I'd like to see changed.
quote:Ok. But none of these markets ask *only* for the first 13. The idea that your opening paragraph makes or break you is an assumption at best. Personally, I don't think the first 13 lines has much of anything to do with if you'll publish. Working behind the scenes, I've seen where interns are instructed to read the entire manuscript.
Here in OZ there are three that will accept unsolicited material, provided they conform to their guidelines and genre requirements, and there are regular months where publishers
quote:That's two. I can, if it helps anything in what I'm suggesting, list all of the professional publications who don't accept unsolicited manuscripts.
McMillan, Random House etc.--will accept unsolicited manuscripts for evaluating new and promising writers.
quote:And just to clear this up, is it the correct reading that you can post 13 lines of a story numerous times, so long as it's not in the same topic?
Notice the tiny word topic. pedantry maybe, but legal.
quote:Wow, that got negative fast. But either way.
please don't encourage him, Phil, he seems to think he's some kind of Messiah here to save Hatrack from becoming too old fashioned, and convert our place into something that conforms with his vision (which often seems to me like Critters, but with Denevius in charge) -- a messiah free to treat with contempt the forum moderator and those who dissent with his railing against the agreements he signed up for when he joined.
Yes, sure, hooking a reader with just 13 lines is hard, but it's a good paradigm for learning to write such as to get attention in the slush pile and to write prose that draws the reader into the story. Although he doesn't say so, his crits often blame the 13 line limit for problems he perceives in fragments: nobody ever did anything useful by complaining over and over that it's too hard let's change the rules.
quote:A setup in which someone posts their first 13, receives feedback, and then post the first page in its entirety, might work.
Of course, even simpler would be to just tell people that they can ask contributors if they'd like to read the first page in addition to their first 13.
quote:IMHO the first 13 is not about developing in medias res story openings; that's just an unfortunate by-product and the route most novice writers take.
In Medias Res has been around since Homer. Starting in the midst of things is what the first 13 is all about. Interest must be immediate in all storytelling.
quote:The first 13 isn't a bad idea, it's just a limiting idea. We've discussed this in the story fragments as well as in the writing threads, but many stories don't open with a "hook". And in fact, as a result of the discussions, you've seen people changing the way in which we critique the openings, avoiding the necessity of having a hook in the opening at all.
My main misgiving of the posting of the first page after feedback on the first 13 relates to the "but it gets good in line 14" complaint.
If the whole point of this forum were to make the first 13 lines perfect (and to encourage multiple versions of the first 13 until it is perfect) -- which it truly isn't, by the way, then rewarding someone for improving their first 13 lines by allowing them to post the rest of the page (assuming there actually is more to the first page--in short stories, there shouldn't be) might make sense.
But that isn't the whole point, is it?
quote:Not responding to people often have them escalate, so I just want you to know, Tailspinner, that I appreciate your analysis of my ulterior motivations. We'll just have to agree to disagree, however. Plus, getting overly frustrated in online chat conversations isn't grand for your health, in either case.
This is a thread that isn't about a story or a first 13, which seems to me is being used by Denevius to drive change for the sake of it, following the agenda he stated in an early post thus: