After the end of the quarter, entries submitted have been responded to as thus:

Honorable Mentions:
Snapper
JenniferHicks
InarticulateBabbler
Rick Novy
tchernabyelo
Kitti

If I have missed anyone that participated in the group during this quarter and got some kind of award, just let me know and I'll add you to the list. These are our Woo-hoos!

[This message has been edited by WriterDan (edited June 14, 2010).]
 

Oh, I'm getting ready to print off Cory. Any more critiques out there for it?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited September 04, 2009).]
 

Here's the list:

WriterDan
arriki
darklight
 

WriterDan
arriki
darklight
Kitti
 

WriterDan
arriki
darklight
Kitti
JenniferHicks
 

Has anyone encountered this, and how would you go about trying to join the old with the new seemlessly?
 

First of all, read and reread the written part and keep doing that until you feel that the tone has seeped back into your brain. Then write the rest of it as quickly as you can. And do the polishing rewrite while you still have the tone.

If that doesn't work (and you can probably tell by having new readers watch for a point where the story feels different as they read it), you might be willing to try something a little more drastic.

Put the current version away somewhere and don't look at it while you write the whole thing all over again. The tone may not be exactly the same, but it will be more consistent, and you will be applying skills and improvements in your writing that you may not have had when you started writing the story all those months ago.

Of course, neither of these may be things you want to do, but I offer them in hopes that they may help, darklight.
 

A lot of my project end up being stretched across months... years... and I lose the original tone that I had when I began ('cause let's face it, I'm not sixteen anymore!) Oftentimes the re-reading thing works for me and I'd recommend giving it a try; worse thing that happens is you conclude you'll never be able to recapture that tone and you'll know for sure that you need to rewrite the whole thing from start to finish.
 

May I suggest that you play a trick on yourself, and write the end as soon as you know what it is? Then sort of sneak up on it by writing what comes just before it, and then what comes just before that, so that your writing actually meets in the middle?

Then you can smooth it all over in the rewrite.
 

lbdavid98, no problem. We're always happy to have new people on board. You're welcome to participate in anyway.
 

Critting only
lbdavid98

Looks like we're in for a good time this quarter.

Think I've finally decided on my story for this quarter. My mind just keeps coming back to it. So, time to write!
 

I have to cut it down then try and make it make sense.

But this little Mars story that I posted the first 13 of, I'm finding interesting. There's no way I could both write it and polish it in time. Most of my stories require aging to reach any level of quality and this one does most definitely. I don't even know what it's about more than - probably - an escape story. Even the pov is unclear. I have both a file for the story as it's unfolding and a separate one for the background as I invent that.
 

I had planned on getting a story in for this current quarter, but its coming right down to the end now. The only story I have completed is a 1000 word flash, which I have not had critiqued yet but I feel is good enough to submit, although not first place quality I know. Is a flash story even a good idea to submit? What does everyone think?

I am going to buckle down and flesh out my mars story I have posted the 13 lines for already...

Even if I can't meet the deadlines of completion, I will be happy to participate with reviewing others stories.

Current List:
WriterDan
arriki
darklight
Kitti
JenniferHicks
Owasm
LlessurNire

Critting only
lbdavid98

 

PS-lbdavid98, thanks for giving me this idea for getting started with the hatrack WotF group.
 

http://www.diabolicalplots.com/?p=551

Reviewer is a hack (Whoops. Missed the 'tra') writer but he does give you an idea of what made it in last year.
 

I'm extremely disappointed to learn what you look like. I really thought you'd have more teeth and possibly a tail.

Nick
 

Critting only
lbdavid98
JVirgil

Just getting signed up the correct way. Looking forward to reading a few stories soon.
 

I have a goal of 100 words a day. Can I make it? Will the story be worth reading when I do?

Gack!
 

Critting only
lbdavid98
JVirgil

Skadder has put the pressure on the rest of us. I got one almost completed. Is everyone ready for first reads?

Current List:
WriterDan
arriki
darklight
Kitti
JenniferHicks
Owasm
LlessurNire
snapper
Bent Tree

Critting only
lbdavid98
JVirgil

 

I'm going to get my story finished up these next few days, so if you're ready to crit now, let us know.

Here's a ready to crit now list, not to be confused with the participating list:

darklight
 

darklight
JVirgil
 

I still have almost 3000 more words to cut out of my story. But I really need someone unfamiliar with it to read the present version and see if it still makes sense. Perhaps point out some stuff that could be cut without damaging the story.
 

darklight
JVirgil
snapper

Sent mine to darklight. JVirgil, we have no email address for you. I would be happy to send mine to you.

[This message has been edited by snapper (edited October 09, 2009).]
 

I do have a backup story I could switch to if this proves too difficult.
 

darklight
JVirgil
snapper
owasm
 

jamesvirgil11_at_gmail.com Sorry, I thought the forum allowed for sending emails through it. I'm ready to look at it.
 

Ready to crit:
darklight
JVirgil
snapper
owasm
Kitti
 

Doesn't mean I'm finished though. Grumble, grumble...

Got a good portion of the re-draft finished, but still a bunch to go. I need to get better at this. Still going to push to get it off early though. Gotta get ahead of the game.

Anyone looking to throw their story out to the critique-gators, go for it. No need for an extra list now. We're all committed.
 

I hope to finish in another week, but I am open to start critiquing others so feel free to send your story to me as well
 

I came back to my computer yesterday and started in slicing more words out of this story. I paused to save and BAM! I get this message that I can't and it lists three possible reasons none which can possibly fit! Then it erases not just this version. Oh, no. It erases EVERY X#%@%@ VERSION OF THIS FILE. Fortunately, I have changed the file name a few times. I didn't lose them all - just 1000+ words of cutting this down, ARGH!!!!

I HATE WORD!!!!
 

I did get Owasm's story and Jessicas as well.
 

Just add your name to teh list, Dark Warrior. Pleasure to have you aboard.
 

Critting only
lbdavid98
JVirgil

Thanks, I will try to catch up

 

So, my redraft is taking longer than I had thought it would. Couple that will school bearing down on me, and my halloween costume to put together, and progress has dropped to a crawl.

The progress that I have made though is turning out really well. Have added 2k worth of a new beginning that is getting me excited for the story more than ever.

Am going to try and have it out by Nov 7th so I can (hopefully) still make my "one month early" deadline. Here's to hoping.
 

That is one out of every three words cut from my original story.

Does it still read okay? Make sense?

I'm wiped out. Anyone want to take a crack at reading it?
It's sf.
 

The very end (last few lines) still needs work. I was so focused on getting it cut down to 17,000- words that I let that slide.

Thanks for volunteering.
 

quote:

---

Nov 7th: Second drafts out for crits
Nov 30th: Mail-in final drafts for Q03

---

I can be "in" for the above.

Current List:
WriterDan
arriki
darklight
Kitti
JenniferHicks
Owasm
LlessurNire
snapper
Bent Tree
Dark Warrior
InarticulateBabbler

Critting only
lbdavid98
JVirgil

I have only seen first critiquings for three people. (I am working on them.)
 

Regarding my own critiquing -- I've been immersed so deep in cutting out words that (I fear) it's going to affect how I view your stories right now.

That, and maybe I should call myself "jaded reader" because I've read so many stories.

I'm not so jaded, but if I start skimming or keel over asleep, you'll understand.
 

I want something that intrigues me in some new way. A curious idea, a lyrical prose style or description, a secret to unravel, a place to visit (like Mars) that I can never go -- I'm hoping for those kinds of openings (13 lines) and full stories.

I'll send my story on after supper.
Gosh, I hope mine doesn't put you to sleep!

Thanks for looking it over.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 01, 2009).]
 

[This message has been edited by Dark Warrior (edited November 02, 2009).]
 

Anyhow, apologies to anyone who sent me a story and I've haven't gotten back to you. If you're waiting for a crit, let me know and I'll get to it. Equally, if there's anyone with a story I haven't seen yet, send it along.

My story is done, I just need to give a quick once over. With so many people on the list, I'm not sure I could cope with that many critiques all at once, so if there's three or four of you willing to give mine a look, let me know that too.

So how's it all going with you? Getting the stories written?
 

I'm going to send JenniferHicks a copy as soon as I have that even halfway fixed. I hope by this weekend.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 04, 2009).]
 

I am at 5000 words and plugging away. A slower pace than the Nanoheads but I'm doing some editing and research in between the typing.

Just finished a big dialogue scene between my Protag and Antag, who he thought was an enemy, then realized he may be an ally, but will soon find out his initial instincts were right. Seemed bulky at first but I added some conflict, internal and external, and I am much happier with it now that it is more than a simple verbal exchange.
 

Got a crit from...
darklight
(thank you)

Gave crits to...
Kitti
JenniferHicks
Owasm

The story darklight looked at I sent to an anthology that is a better fit for it. I am currently working on a replacement piece.

Anyone that needs a reader, here I am.
 

I'm at 7,500 words with some editing done along the way. Four more scenes and it will be a wrap.

I've done crits for

Arikki
OWASM
Teraen (Though it might not have been WOTF project)

Still working on crits for

Kitti

 

I'm not yet ready to submit anything of length for the WOTF for this quarter, but when this group reconvenes next quarter are there any restrictions about number of entries? I am juggling 3 short stories right now, and frankly would appreciate feedback on all of them to get my best entry possible...

Edit to add: I meant restrictions on participation in THIS GROUP, not the WOTF contest...

[This message has been edited by Teraen (edited November 08, 2009).]
 

P.S. I'm still available for critiquing first (or second) drafts if anyone is ready to send.
 

quote:

---

I have visions of my fellow writers, who have given their precious time to help make my story better, fuming because they think I ignored what they had to say.

---

so you are saying that you did NOT add teenage vampires going to a magic academy?

Crits/advice are just that...advice...I think we all realize that we have different points, some may be good for you and some may not be. I can live with someone not incorporating my crits just like I can live with them ripping apart a soulful first 13 that I feel emotionally invested in.

[This message has been edited by Dark Warrior (edited November 09, 2009).]
 

1) we are here to help each other.

You are welcome to accept or ignore any or all of our comments.

2) It is your story.

Write how you like, not how you think we wanted to look.

3) Our opinions matters but a hill of beans.

You have one person to worry about. She Who Must Be Impressed. Perhaps you could butter up to her twin so she could put in a good word for you, but I wouldn't count on it. I've been working on that angle for years, without much success.
 

Who else is waiting for it?
 

WriterDan
arriki (excepting me on my own story)
darklight- sent to
Kitti - already critiqued
JenniferHicks - sent to her
Owasm
LlessurNire
snapper
Bent Tree - already critiqued
Dark Warrior
InarticulateBabbler

Critting only
lbdavid98
JVirgil

Who else in the group will critique RESCUE MISSION for me?

[This message has been edited by Dark Warrior (edited November 11, 2009).]
 

I'm still working on my story....being a newer writer, and with life being really busy it is taking me a lot longer than I thought it would. I hope to finish it and have it out for critique by the end of november.

In the meantime, I am willing to critique. so anyone who has not sent one to me send it over! arriki, I am even willing to read your long story.

I will be away from computer until the 15th, then I will buckle down on writing and critiques
 

I'll send the whole thing to you, again. The ending is the more important part for you to look at as it has been changed quite bit from when you read the story.
 

I swear I spelled it right the first try.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited November 16, 2009).]
 

I promised you a crit of your ending by now, but yesterday I was driving home from a long day on the set of Cedar Rapids- sadly Sigourny Weaver, Sci-Fi queen, was not shooting that day, but I did meet Ed Helms (The Office, Hangover) and told John C. Reilly he looked hot in his cheesy suit at wardrobe- when a dog ran into the road. The dog used his telekinetic powers to bring the car in front of me to a complete stop inches before impact, however he forgot about me and I slammed into the rear end of the car.

Best part of the story, to quote the sheriff that responded "You could not have picked a worse person to hit." turns out the other driver is a renowned defense attorney and I anticipate many lawsuits in the near and far future. Le Sigh.

The flux capacitor on my car, and many other things are badly damaged and I will be focusing on getting that taken care of for the next couple of days so I will be hitting Pause on the Universal Remote and crits/my WOTF WIP will be delayed.
 

I think you're the last one on my list here. Should I send it on?
 

I just found your WOTF story in my spam email folder. I will look it over during the weekend.

[This message has been edited by Dark Warrior (edited November 20, 2009).]
 

snapper, yours is next.

Jennifer's after.

I'm just getting around to my rewrite, so, I may just have to wing it.
 

Still playing catch up after joining the group late.
 

I am a poor editor. I changed the name of my aliens and my hedgetrimmer and missed a couple. Sorry about the confusion everyone.
 

Arriki, yours is next, hopefully in the next day or two.

I have not received any others, so feel free to send to me if you are done with your story.

I am still working madly on my own wip, trying to get this first draft done asap.

edited to add: my apologies for taking a long time getting to some of the stories, I have been really busy, but I will try to respond a lot faster in the future.

[This message has been edited by LlessurNire (edited November 23, 2009).]
 

Yes. I'm open for critting any stories that are going to be submitted for this quarter to WotF.
 

Just curious as this is my first edit of a full story since ive been at Hatrack...when you edit do you do it beginning to end all at once? Mine is 15,000 words and I found it easier going through scene by scene instead of getting lost in the middle...then when im done with scenes will do the normal beginning to end once-over.

Disclaimer: This is the first piece I am really getting feedback on and I realize I have a long way to go. Every bit of feedback has helped me address an issue, and usually spawns additional thought on related issues. That said, if my first attempt at a project such as WOTF is too obvious as my first attempt I dont expect anyone to hold my hand or spend more time than they should on a crit. Feel free to kick it back and say "nice try, but you still have some work to do.

Hopefully my crits, nits, and comments have helped keep my hatrack membership card active. Still learning to crit too

[This message has been edited by Dark Warrior (edited November 27, 2009).]
 

Glad to see that you're in this to learn, DW. That's the way it is for this group. Questions are always welcome. I'm not saying that we'll always have an answer for you though.
 

After a few articulate words from innarticulate, arch, and a couple others I was thinking about my experience and knowledge (or lack of) when it comes to drafts and revisions. I have Self-Edit on order, but I was looking at my Elements of Fiction Writing series sitting on my desk and realized that there were two books I never even opened because I wasnt ready yet. Manuscript Submission and Revision So last night I was reading through Revision and had my epiphany--actually I had two. One had to do with what I thought revision was and the other had to do with style, and both of them will greatly enhance my writing product, of course I still have a lot of work to do to overcome those deficiencies but I am excited I identifed them.

So quite simply, I have learned more than I could have imagined and know that I have so much more to learn. Thanks HR

[This message has been edited by Dark Warrior (edited November 30, 2009).]
 

Arriki, your project is next, though I fear I won't have it to you by the time you were planning to submit.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited December 01, 2009).]
 

[This message has been edited by Dark Warrior (edited December 01, 2009).]
 

It's the furry couple story.
 

Huh? What title? I think I missed something from your comment.
 

How many from this group have sent out their Q01 submissions?

I have about 3 more scenes left on my 1st rewrite, wow I am running behind on this one.
 

It went into the postal service around noon today (Friday), Dec, 11, 2009.

Now that I'm finally, truly free of that lumbering monstrosity< I find myself shunning the story set mostly on Phobos.

Another Mars Born story, I think, but not that one. There is always GHOSTS FROM THE VOID if I think I can't finish in time.
 

The one I'm working on is an old steampunk number that I spruced up. Its about as long as yours but a quick read.

[This message has been edited by Owasm (edited December 12, 2009).]
 

But seriously, thanks for the look/read.

If anyone else that isn't working on their own deadline would like to give the 9000word rewrite a look let me know, even if you can only look at the first two pages.

Thank you, in advance,
Donavan

DW, you can send yours over to me. I probably won't get to it until after my first draft is done, but I'll get to it and then get something back to you as soon as I can.
 

I've got it all ready to send out--which I will do after Christmas. I hate standing in lines.

(gasp!) I just grabbed my labels and found a WotF SASE in between my label sheets! Could I have sent my last story in without one? Could I be disqualified or worse... ignored? Woe is Owasm.

[This message has been edited by Owasm (edited December 22, 2009).]
 

http://www.writersofthefuture.com/rules.htm

quote:

---

If the author does not wish return of the manuscript, a #10 (business size) self-addressed, stamped envelope (or valid email address) must be included with the entry in order to receive judging results.

---

Don't forget the formatting requirements.
 

LOL. Not even CLOSE to being early, neh?

[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited December 28, 2009).]
 

I did get an Amazon gift certificate which I used to buy a WotF anthology (#23 was $0.01 through a third party seller. You read that right: 1 shiny penny for a new copy... although S&H was $3.99) Now I will read some of those stories to find out what wins.

[This message has been edited by Owasm (edited December 28, 2009).]
 

Now that the deadline is near and most have shipped theres out...

Good Luck to all. I hope Hatrack has another spectacular showing this quarter.
 

*Fingers crossed*

I'll probably take a break from next quarter's group, and work on actually finishing my stories in time. then I look forward to joining and working with all of you again!
 

quote:

---

Dear Donavan,

Your story has arrived and has been entered in the 1st
quarter of the 2010 L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future
contest. (1 Oct - 31 December).

---

WOOT! First entry notification for me lol
 

Thought I would add that the email also said thank you for your note and entry, but I didn't send a note. Do you think there might be some confusion, a mix up perhaps. I've never had an email before mentioning a note, so I don't think this is standard to the email Joni usually sends out.

[This message has been edited by darklight (edited February 04, 2010).]
 

They may tell you to save the one you're working on for the next quarter, because they certainly can't enter it in the quarter you sent it for (that's passed).

You should be able to ask them to return it to you if you don't want it entered in this quarter (so you can enter the one you're planning for this quarter).
 

quote:

---

Kathy Wentworth
Article 5263, Fri 26 Feb 2010 08:20:01p

I sent more than half the entries back today--minus the possible finalists of
course.

---

I hate this part of the contest. Knowing that results are probably just around the corner and I don't have anyone beating down my door to tell me I've won. Just about kills me every quarter.

Thus, I'm retreating for a re-group. Back to furious writing and just...trying...to...forget.
 

It most certainly DID NOT! It was fifteen words short of the 17,000 word maximum. So I guess WOTF DOES NOT ABIDE BY THEIR OWN GUIDELINES!!!!!!!

I am so angry!!!!
 

Blog has posted the first set of HM now.

Sorry to hear your news Arriki...I would be interested in hearing how they officially count their words so we can get the word out and keep that from happening to other hatrackers.
 

quote:

---

The problem is that people use their word processing program to count words and every one of them counts differently. The first thing my agent told me, once she accepted me, was to stop doing that. Mine was counting short. My manuscripts were longer than I thought. The industry standard is to use a count of 250 words/page for manuscripts that are correctly formatted. Go to Vonda McIntyre's file on the SFWA resources page (open to outsiders) to make sure [to use] correct format. A properly formatted 17K manuscript should run close to 68 pages.

---

Vonda McIntyre's file is a downloadable PDF file, so if you right-click on the link and select SAVE TARGET AS, you can download it to your own computer.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited March 13, 2010).]
 

I think everyone is owed an apology from WOTF.
ESPECIALLY ME.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited March 14, 2010).]
 

That's no good. What is the cut off. IS it 68 pages or is it not?

I mean "close to" is so vague that it COULD mean 70 pages or even 76 pages like MY STORY!
 

That is just too much variation to use as a measuring stick. If they're going to discount people's word processor counts then they need to provide a word counter on their website, like NaNoWriMo does so everyone is held to the same standard.

I don't know what else to say but I'm sorry for your news arriki. If mine comes back for the same reason, at a full thousand words under, I will be mighty angry.
 

Perhaps twenty years ago word processors were less reliable. AND perhaps they also count the # sign signaling a hard break when as a "word" but that would only mean a higher word count than actual which shouldn't bother anyone submitting stories if their mss is actually a tad shorter. Anybody disagree with that?

Maybe I should go through my mss and hand count the words. List on each page the word count and add it up and put THAT on the mss and resubmit it. If it is under 17,000 words it SHOULD be judged. Can you get WOTF to accept that, Kathleen? The rules for the time I submitted the story were 17,000 words. Let's be honest and judge my story on it's quality. I'm sure it won't even get an HM no matter HOW good it actually is after making this fuss, but I would like to it to have a FAIR reading.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited March 14, 2010).]
 

I'm scrxxed either way. And it was a good story. I worked so hard to make it fit their stated guidelines and then it turns out they don't have any guidelines they abide by!

Genevive42 -- did you use courier or New Times Roman for your story when you sent it off? Was it 75 pages long?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited March 14, 2010).]
 

Ask WOTF also about the font. If they will accept Times New Roman, then I can resubmit my story in that font and it will be under the 68 page length (if THAT means anything).

In New Times Roman my story is 68 pages long.

Will they accept that?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited March 14, 2010).]
 

Also, I believe you can submit a rewrite. Maybe you can shave a little off your story and resubmit. Just a thought.
 

We don't know what the actual rules are, do we?

I just don't know. Since they misrepresented the rules at 17,000 words, who can depend on them. All the people writing 5,000 to 10,000 word stories PROBABLY are safe, but if you want to go beyond that --- !

Kathleen, can you get them to commit to some real guideline on length?

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited March 14, 2010).]
 

What do you say, Kathleen?
 

Truth is, this is a FREE writing contest that we enter. They post their guidelines. We are subject to their interpretations of those guidelines. <shrug> Winners get an awesome prize. We contestants do our best to put our greatest work forward, but we're just contestants in the end.

I just checked a chapter of my WIP. On one word processor, it's 1431 words (MS Word for Mac '08 verison.) On another word processor it's 1438 (Scrivener for Mac.) If I use 250 words/page of properly formatted (1 inch margins all around, Courier font) manuscript, I get 1750 words.

I'm glad this came up because I'm about to start shopping my novel, and I fear it's a tad short for the YA marketplace, as it's about 60k words when most YA works are in the 80k range. Well, now that I can see that my two word processors seem to UNDER count words, I will know to use the 250 words * number of pages (a formula I knew but hadn't used on the MS yet) to recompute.

In case anyone was curious, the formula caused my 61k manuscript to go up to 69k. An eight thousand word discrepancy. Works in my favor in this case, as it will be much easier for me to shop a 70k story than a 60k one (and in final edits I may end up adding enough to round up to 80k anyway.)

In any word count discrepancy, it makes sense to go with the largest estimate of words.
 

quote:

---

If I put it in Courier New it comes up 75 pages, in Times New Roman it comes up 55 pages. I have seen both fonts referred to as 'industry standard'.

---

Courier is a standard, but I've never heard Times New Roman listed as an industry standard. It's a proportional font - meaning the space a skinny letter like l or i or t occupies on the page is less than the space that a wide letter like w or m takes up. This means the letters smush together more, making more room on the line for more words, making more room on the page for more lines, etc.

Times New Roman may be a preferred font in certain situations, e.g., academic settings it may be the preferred/standard for submitting assignments, but in publishing I've not heard of it as standard.

One of the primary reasons that editors want manuscripts in courier is because it's predictable. They know how many lines fit on a page, how many words per page (hence the 250 word/page estimate kdw quoted) and all that. They can flip through the MS and see at a glance whether it would fit in the space they're trying to fill. And then there's a sameness to each of the manuscripts they receive so the focus is on the stories the manuscripts tell, rather than on interpreting the MS.

There are a lot of writing rules out there that are debatable, but this is one of those ones I don't think is, since an improperly formatted ms can cause an editor to put the MS to the side. They're LOOKING for reasons to reject stories because they don't have room for all the stories in the slush pile (this applies to WOTF too.) I figure I never want to give them a reason to pass over mine, so I stick to the MS formatting requirements of each market like glue, even though it sometimes means having to slightly tweak my MS to fit a specific market's idiosyncrasies.
 

In my first few months here, I learned 12 point courier was the most common font and size for proper manuscript submission. I also found that other fonts were acceptable, but that they all should amount to 10 words (average) per line, 25 lines per page. (250 words per page.) Funny how KD Wentworth's word approximation falls neatly in line with that, huh? Failure to use Courier 12 point, when it has long been the industry standard, is a choice you chose to take. There are consequencs to ALL decisions.

The sad thing is, we've tackled this discussion many times here on Hatrack. That you should act surprised is ridiculous.

Troubleshooing: Does you word counter count hyphenated words as one? Mine does. In 250 words-a-page approximation, the blank spaces on a page are also counted as words. Do you have your Widow/Orphan control off? Do you have space before and after at 0?

Either way, throwing a tantrum for a perceived wrong does nothing to impress any editor. That is something all newbies should know.

quote:

---

The font isn't important except that it be very readable - which means use a serif font. It used to be necessary to use a monospace font like Courier, where all the letters are the same width (as with a typewriter). But now that publishers are getting the final manuscript electronically, they can handle an ordinary proportional font. Times Roman is standard, but I use Bookman Old Style because the letters are so open and the text is warm and readable.

---

STILL can't find the word counter on Vonda McIntyre's site. Point me the way, please.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited March 15, 2010).]
 

quote:

---

Either way, throwing a tantrum for a perceived wrong does nothing to impress any editor. That is something all newbies should know.

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I don't believe Danielle is throwing a tantrum at an editor but instead venting her anger here, an appropriate place to do so.

Yes, KDW's 10 words per line approximation does fall neatly in line with a 68 page count (granted it doesn't take in account that the first page is actually a half of page), but when you do the math of arriki's script, hers comes out to 9 words per line. An easy outcome if you write a Science Fiction story filled with inventive terms and off-wordly names.

You deserve our symapthy, Danielle. To work so hard on writing and editing a piece of that length is a monstrous endeavor. I hope you take whatever steps it needs so you can resubmit it. Stick with it. KDW liked your writing enough to award you with a semi-finalist. That is more than most of us can say.

WriterDan's Word Count Question

We'll see what she says. I'll be sure to follow-up and link to the answer. Perhaps we can add this to our compiled list of WotF-related posts here at Hatrack.
 

If it hasn't been permanently banned, edit it down and resubmit. No need for anger.

And in the future, don't play so close to the edge. Being within 1% of a target word count is playing with fire. 15 words is 0.1%. Give yourself just a little more leeway. This isn't flash fiction, where absolutely every last word counts.

No need to raise hell here. We have all been made aware of how WOTF calculates word count. Thanks for that lesson arriki.
 

Words...Pgs...Words/pg
6000.....23......261 -- Times New Roman (Returned, no comments)
8000.....31......258
10000...46......217
11500...53......217
16300...73......223 -- Not submitted
12000...60......200
9600.....47......204
11000...50......220

Starting with my 8k-word submission, my manuscript has been formatted with with Courier font, but it always had 1-inch margins with proper headings, and blah, blah, blah. Sixty pages is the closest I've ever gotten to the "limit" on a submission. As an aside, I seem to be a bit light of the 250 words/page average that is always quoted. Maybe that's why I'm not published yet. Not enough dense paragraphs full of plot-stopping description.

Anyhow, I got a response back from Kathy, but had to ask a follow-up question. I'll get everything back here once I've figured this question out to my satisfaction.

PS -- Sorry about all the periods. Guess the text parser here didn't like the white-space in my tables cause it kept erasing it.

[This message has been edited by WriterDan (edited March 15, 2010).]
 

They offer the contest as a service. It is not a contract, and they are not committing breach of promise when they are not very clear about their entry rules. As I understand it, they have a website where anyone can ask questions and receive answers in a timely fashion.

And I certainly am not going to demand that they apologize to anyone.

The most I can do is suggest that they consider clarifying their length requirements, which I fully intend to do.

I sincerely hope that you are not really storming around, yelling and screaming, the way it seems that you are doing, arriki. It can't be good for your blood pressure or your digestion.
 

http://goldenagestories.com/beta/bb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=503&start=240
 

So there are places to hunt up the footnotes, but why should I assume they don't MEAN what the most prominent source they promote says?

I quote from their web site --
3. To be eligible, entries must be works of prose, up to 17,000 words in length. We regret we cannot consider poetry, or works intended for children.

No mention of "go to this place to find out the true measurement." What they have seems quite clear. However, you can write a story far beneath 17K in length and still when printed out in courier it runs longer than 68 pages. 17,000 words. That's thinking from the last century when they were dealing with hard copy coming from typewriters. Why can't they be fair and honest about they actually want? How hard is it to change the number three rule to say "up to 68 pages double-spaced?"

 

quote:

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That's thinking from the last century when they were dealing with hard copy coming from typewriters.

---

Actually that is having to deal with the spaces taken up in hardcopy publications. The WotF IS publishing a hardcopy anthology, and have to account for "white" space when buying stories to be included.
 

Vonda McIntyre recommends against using proportional fonts.

Pretty much what I got out of this conversation with her is that the REAL limit is about 68 pages (give or take 1, MAYBE 2 pages) but that she didn't want to say that right out because it'll directly contradict what the rules on the WotF website say. This limitation of "number of pages" instead of "number of words" is most likely due to the publication issue of "page space in print". Why don't they change the posted rule then? I don't know. Not our call though.

Thus, the rubric that I'd suggest going by is 68 pages, properly formatted (according to Vonda McIntyre) in a constant-width font. In other words, forget about the 17k thing, because that's not what is used in practice.

[This message has been edited by WriterDan (edited March 16, 2010).]
 

All of these years and they've never thought to clarify the guidelines? It feels deceptive.

And yes, I know it's up to them how to run things but that doesn't change the way it feels.
 

And just a note: Even in the FAQ it doesn't mention a specific font. It just says 12pt.
 

Settings:
Letter paper, 1" margins, Microsoft Word, Widow/Orphan control turned OFF, double spaced, Courier New, .5" paragraph indent.

With:
12pt - 81 pages.
11pt - 68 pages.

So, I wonder: If submitting a lengthy work, will one be better off submitting it in 11pt?

[This message has been edited by BenM (edited March 17, 2010).]
 

[which raises an interesting observation: at 12pt, with 23pt line-spacing it's 69 pages, with 22pt line-spacing it's 67 pages]

[This message has been edited by BenM (edited March 16, 2010).]
 

Changing my (same) document from 1" on each margin to 1, .5, .5, 1.5 as you've suggested, I get the same figures as before: 81 pages for 12pt, 68 for 11pt. (double-spaced, as in my original post above).

My guess is your change simply keeps the same number of words per page while increasing the number of lines per page and decreasing words per line.
 

I'd never thought about the 24-pt double spacing thing. I have always just used the automatic double-space option from Word. Interesting that the page count for a given story would drop from 81 pages to 72 just by using that. Whoa. So from a quick look, this could almost make the difference in Arriki's submission. That is, if she used Word's automatic double-spacing like the rest of us. Because her 79 page story would, theoretically, get reduced to about 70 pages, which is within the limit that Kathy mentioned. So, should we all be cursing Microsoft instead? Another question though: if the text is 12 "points" high, how many "points" are placed between lines of text in a single-spaced document? Should the spacing that we are specifying here (24) include those "points" as well as those for the two lines of text? Great "point" though, Kitti.

Suggestions for Ben (and everyone): follow Vonda McIntyre's formatting suggestions: don't use 11 pt. It might come back to bite you if the story that you've won with doesn't fit into the WotF page space and then you have to tell them that you cheated on the length by using an 11 pt font. Icky sticky.

Just format it right, keep it under 17,000 words, and if you're prose isn't very dense (<250 words/pg), realize that you may come up against the 68-page limit as well. I think that's the most that any of us can do. It's too bad that we had to find out like this, I agree. WotF should put something about this in their rules along with the 17,000 word-count limit. Still, even if they don't change anything, I think we can all learn from this event and do our best to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again.
 

http://boston.bizjournals.com/prnewswire/press_releases/California/2010/03/18/LA73105

Recognized Snapper and IB on the list. Congrats, guys! Anyone else see a name they know?
 

I can only surmise it would cause two different versions of guidelines, (although not necessarily conflicting) and would only confuse people more. (and net them some legitimate complaint mail)

27 (28?) years ago they came up with the rules, and can't change them now. All they can do is hope people search around enough on their own to find the 68 page limit.

My wife submits to her publisher electronically and in Times new Roman 12 pt. Thus, I've been happily writing all my stuff that way for years.
Imagine my surprise when I come here and poor Arriki has her's sent back because it's too long.
Mine's only 60 pages, right?
Cntl-A
Dropdown-Courier New
Bam... 75 pages.

I've done the tricks to shrink it back down a bit, but I'm still over which means I have to hack something out of the story that I feel is just right.

Someone mentioned this topic has been beat to death, but without stickies, the only way to learn this is to read tons of threads and hope one covers it, so you can't really fault Arriki for not knowing. If I hadn't started coming here and reading everything in sight I wouldn't have known either.

TL;DR ?

Kathleen, is there any way to sticky a thread?
I know Hatrack isn't affiliated with WotF, but if a sticky is possible, maybe it can be worded like "If you plan to submit, please read this first"
Then, at the very least, there's a thread on top where we can find the info.

Axe

I'm pretty sure that most of the people in our groups here at Hatrack that have stories going in this quarter (Q02 2010) have either already sent them in or know about the alternate limitation on their stories.

Thus, starting with the Q03 2010 group, I've put a short blurb in the opening paragraph that starts each quarter's group discussion about this issue, and I plan on having that blurb persist for future quarters. Take a look at what I've added and see if you think that'll do. If you have any suggestions for additions/deletions, let me know.

[This message has been edited by WriterDan (edited March 20, 2010).]
 

quote:

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Kathleen, is there any way to sticky a thread?

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axeminister, so far as I know, there is no way. If there were, I would certainly make use of it. (For one thing, I wouldn't have to go "bump" the posts in the whole area I have at the top of the workshop forum page where I ask people to "Please read here first" and which I am convinced very few people actually read anyway.)
 

quote:

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For one thing, I wouldn't have to go "bump" the posts in the whole area I have at the top of the workshop forum page where I ask people to "Please read here first" and which I am convinced very few people actually read anyway.

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I read them. But then again, I always read my instruction manuals (including the one that came with my car - boy, did everyone laugh at me when I very carefully followed the instructions to not drive my car faster than 50mph for the first 500 miles!)
 

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/finalists-announced-in-1st-quarter-2010-of-l-ron-hubbards-international-contest-for-writers-89033502.html
 

I recognized a few names on the list. None from Hatrack though. Did I miss someone?

Ah well. Onto the next quarter's entry. Seven days to deadline.
 

Blog is finally updated....Silver Honorable Mention?
http://wotfblog.blogspot.com/

Official congrats to

Snapper
JenniferHicks
InarticulateBabbler
Rick Novy
tchernabyelo
Kitti

and all those who managed through the real life slushpile to get an entry in.

 

Joni posted about it today. Apparently, they're Honorable Mentions that are better than the rest of the HMs, but not a semi-finalist. My guess, is that they're probably semi-finalist worthy stories that Kathy can't critique because she's limited in how many she's allowed to give out. Doesn't look like they'll get anything extra because of it. Maybe a different HM certificate than the rest. Sounds almost like some extra information for those that keep nipping at the heels of the semi-finalist category but not quite making it. Pretty cool idea, if you ask me.

Edit: Kathy verified this on the newsgroup page.

[This message has been edited by WriterDan (edited April 01, 2010).]
 

THE FIRST QUARTER WINNERS ARE

1st Place - Brennan Harvey of Huntington Beach, California

2nd Place - David D'Amico of Salem, Massachusetts

3rd Place - Ryan Harvey of Los Angeles, California

http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=blogview&group=sff.writing.writersofthefuture&from=5336

Is it worth editing your original post and clearing out the requisite info regarding signing up, and posting the HM's from Hatrack?

You could also edit in the three winners from the post above mine.

It could be fun to do this for the past few quarters and see how we've been faring as far as placements are concerned.

It might be time consuming, so it's up to you. Just a thought.

Axe