Story ideas come easily to me. Too easily. Like Vesuvius, these are erupting from my troubled subconscious after being suppressed thirty years while I dedicated my energies to my profession and (sadly to lesser degree) my family.
Writing stories, writing well, I find is hard, extremely difficult, frustrating, even painful. I am impecably disciplined in the practice of my medical profession, but in my writing I feel I'm attempting to herd flies. The worlds, characters, even story plots inevitably and invariably wish to go further and deeper than my original conception of a simple tale.
As a would-be writer, I'm like a child suffering from ADHD who cannot sit still, dreading how the words and sentences will need be pulled from me slowly, so slowly, and as pleasureably as removing shrapnel from a gut wound.
How many times do I write and rewrite a sentence or even a single word to capture on paper my incompletely formulated vision while striving to ensure the words flow pleasurably and do not grate and puncture the mental feet of the reader who traverses them?
Then before I can fully expunge the vision, exorcise it completely onto manuscript, Vesuvious erupts yet again. Like a modern Sisyphus I start all over again, surrounded by messy stacks of unfinished works.
But... (exhaling)... when I do finish a story, there is that brief thrill of accomplishment! A joy that echoes the glow, the pride, of being a new parent!
"To the ass or the sow, their offspring appears the fairest creation"--[Latin proverb].
As a story ages, however, as the glow fades, its inherent (inherited) flaws become apparent--not only to reviewers and editors with their kind or frequently expressionless rejections, but also to myself.
And yet, however flawed, one always maintains affection for one's own creations, albeit wistful and nostalgic in recollection of the great vision that has now fled and the transient but keen moment of joy in seeing it newborn and complete.
I admire you masters of prose who diligently and professionally can construct story after story, command words to allign and be ordered, select characters and plot devices from well-stocked shelves and fit them togethger like well-oiled cogwheels; story complexity and length determned businesslike by your intended market, by word count, by prompt, or by contemporary audience appeal. Here lies authorial success.
Contarily, I feel doomed to create stories as they direct. I'm a slave to them, a solitary menial with many mistress muses each simultaneously demanding my time and attention and always more banging at the door.
“The whole difference between construction and creation is exactly this: that a thing constructed can only be loved after it is constructed; but a thing created is loved before it exists.”--[Charles Dickens]
Ugh! I hate/love writing!
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by Osiris (Member # 9196) on :
Have you tried outlining?
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
Hey, Osiris. Don't cast sunshine on the dark and dreary night of my literary-inclined soul.
Let me enjoy my rant.
But in answer to your question: Yes. I create an outline after every moment of inspiration. It is a roughly shaped thing, a golem...or if successfully completed, a "Pinocchio".
Most of my stories have themes that I perceive and in which I take delight, but they need be sculpted into revelation through the crafting of word and character and scene. Thus, my outlines are mere skeletons of successive plot elements divided into acts with their characters, settings, and conflict progressions.
As I shared, I do not construct stories, stacking block upon block, nailing plank to plank, I craft them, create them. And creation is an evolutionary process of revelation.
"This tale grew in the telling..."
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Ho
[ March 18, 2013, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: History ]
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
A doctor of my acquaintance (a surgeon) once told me that the hardest thing for him sometimes was to know when *not* to do anything. Sometimes it's best to stay one's hand, which requires almost superhuman self-discipline.
What I do when the story tries to run away from me is keep a separate piece of paper, or a separate word processor window open, and use it to jot down the ideas as the pop into my head. It may come to pass that I can use them later. If not in that story, then in another one.
But I write stories like painting a house. A base coat, then go back and add another coat (more detail and plot points), then another coat, and so on. One of the hardest things is knowing when to stop, especially when it's all still new.
Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :
ADHD isn't just for kids you know. Us rabbits can have it as well. Also, I would like people to stop using the word suffer as the goto verb when talking about it. It's not a wound or a disease. Tell people they are supposed to be suffering and they will.
Perhaps for you writing is your brain's way of relaxing from an otherwise regimented lifestyle. Enjoy it.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
How's this for sunshine?
Jane Yolen was the guest of honor at a convention I attended several years ago, and her speech was basically a "rant" about people who seem to think getting ideas is the hard part of writing.
So you've discovered that the writing part is the hard part? Congratulations!
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
LOL. If I could write a story for every idea that I have had, my body of work would fill the Library of Congress.
Alas.
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
Came up with a brilliant idea in the car on Friday, forgot all about it by the time I came home, remembered I had the idea this morning, but could not remember what it was. I've said it before, I'm a big fan of the idea that if it was any good at all, I'd remember it, so I shouldn't need to write it down. But it's frustrating not to remember. (And I couldn't've written it down in the car anyway.)
Posted by Osiris (Member # 9196) on :
Sorry, but I will be relentless in encouraging any writer who will listen.
Construction and creation are not mutually exclusive. It is to the benefit of the writer to find a harmony between the two. Construction without creation is the purview of tenement architects and cinder block manufacturers. Creation without construction yields work that only the artist will appreciate. It is the marriage of the two, however unhappily they may be together, that yields enough structure to be universally appealing and the artistry to stand out from the crowd.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
Noted. And I agree with you. I'll inform Mr. Dicken's of our dismissal of his assessment. What does he know about being a writer anyway.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury: How's this for sunshine?
Jane Yolen was the guest of honor at a convention I attended several years ago, and her speech was basically a "rant" about people who seem to think getting ideas is the hard part of writing.
So you've discovered that the writing part is the hard part? Congratulations!
Oh. It is not a new discovery for me, Kathleen.
My first novel idea (which was my first Rabbi Cane Kabbalist story) struck like lightning and 108K words flowed from my fingertips slowly but steadily over the course of a year, and accelerated to quick completion (in fear I might not complete it) as I awaited stenting of one of my coronary arteries.
I had not written fiction in 30 years, nor had concern for "how to write" or about the do's and don'ts extolled by authors and editors and fellow Hatrack members for would-be writers. I just wrote.
My first two short literary pieces were bought in mere days. Easy. I could write. Retire early.
It is only when I thought I might write fantasy and sf for publication that I began to re-study the craft in greater earnest. I sought to learn from all those who had advice and wisdom to give (and to learn from my accumulating rejections). Thus I began to focus more on the "constructive" elements than simply my creative inspiration.
As Osiris and extrinsic have noted, adapting my works to appeal (potentially) to others, and not just myself is what makes a writer an author. What I have discovered is that, for me, this has been the equivalent of dissecting a unicorn. One gains understanding but loses the magic.
My new metaphor is to envision a wonderful new clock and build it from scratch, even forging my own small springs and cogwheels where necessary. I do gain a greater command of storycraft thereby, 'tis true, but a clock is not a unicorn.
Writing is hard. I do expect I'll get better with persistence and repetition (i.e. I dream of retirement and writing daily). I just never wish to lose the magic.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
P.S. I greatly admire Jane Yolen. I was deeply touched by her The Devil's Arithmetic and Briar Rose, as you may imagine. Of relevance to this discusson, I hope she will not mind if I share her thoughts on how she perceives writing:
"I generally do not think out plots or characters ahead of time. I let things roll along. Organic is the word I use for this. But actually I do it because I am a reader before I am a writer. I want my own writing to surprise me, the way someone else’s book does. If I think out everything ahead of time, I am–in Truman Capote’s words–'Not a writer but a typewriter.'"--http://janeyolen.com/for-writers/
I think I should buy her 'Take Joy: A Writer's Guide to Loving the Craft'. Don'tcha think?
P.S.S. Another writer whose fantasies leave me in awe is Patricia A. McKillup. What she shares regarding the writing (and rewriting) of her most recent novel, The Bards of Bone Plain I also find encouraging. And the theme is close to my heart:
"Bards of Bone Plain was an exhausting book to write. It took a long time and very hard work, over the course of about four years. The original idea for it didn’t involve the kind of mirror imaging I ended up using. The central theme was simply to explore the idea that yes, things fantastical matter: fairy tales matter, symbols matter; they speak to us in very intimate ways, and if we need them they are there."
The book by Jane Yolen that I remember best was a biography of George Fox. (Unless my fallible memory has failed me again.)
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
Nope, I found it on her website: Friend: The Story of George Fox and the Quakers Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
A time of great doubt comes in every Poet's life. Well wishers will offer advices, suggestions, encouragement, and support.
I offer a proverb. The darkest hour is always just before dawn.
To me, History, your great doubt heralds a coming dawn.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
From your lips to G-d's ears, extrinsic. Thank you for your kindness.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
I share your frustrations Dr Bob, however I've found solace in the book, The Art of Dramatic Writing, by Lajos Egri.
I still don't completely understand what he has to offer, but it has given me the incentive to 'structure' the way I write. Get an idea, develop it, toy with it, then find what's really at the heart of your story: What is it *really* about. Sometimes referred to as a story's Premise.
Once I have that, and only then, can I start to truly develop my characters. You know, the people that drive the plot of a story.
Just my own personal take on this writing caper.
Phil.
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
There's also the actual writing process and how little the words on paper (or screen) actually resemble the brilliant story that dances around my head. What are the characters saying? What does it look / feel / sound / smell / taste like? Why didn't I just write that down instead of what I did? (An unhealthy case of that burns through the last two finished rough drafts in my body of work.)
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: The Art of Dramatic Writing, by Lajos Egri.
I just read the first chapter online. Egri espouses principles similar to Aristotle's and Gustav Freytag's. If they differ, their differences are about approaches to the kernel of a narrative. Egri favors a plot approach. Aristotle favors a character approach. Freytag favors a theme, or idea, approach. They all emphasize the importance of a dramatic structure supporting a narrative's aesthetical flesh.
In terms of setting's influence, Orson Scott Card's milieu as part of the M.I.C.E. quotient emphasizes cultural elements. Event, perhaps Jack M. Bickham's, author of The Apple Dumpling Gang, emphasis on causation in Elements of Fiction Writing: Scene and Structure and his colleague Dwight V. Swain's Techniques of the Selling Writer. Discourse is emphasized in Seymour Chatman's Story and Discourse. Each, though, overlaps into other top hierarchy elements of creative writing that cover the gamut of SPICED: setting, plot, idea, character, event, and discourse, all of which Aristotle includes in The Poetics.
Not included as much in the others as Egri and Aristotle do is argumentation principles and artfully packaging them into dramatic works. On the other hand, Egri indicates his strong preference for classical Aristotlean tragedy as do Aristotle and Freytag. Aristotlean comedy isn't given much attention in any of their works. And none of them appreciates in any way a new dramatic form that came after them, that of bildungsroman, where the action is both tragedy and comedy: personal growth commensurate with and through personal loss.
[ March 20, 2013, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
quote:Originally posted by Robert Nowall: There's also the actual writing process and how little the words on paper (or screen) actually resemble the brilliant story that dances around my head. What are the characters saying? What does it look / feel / sound / smell / taste like? Why didn't I just write that down instead of what I did? (An unhealthy case of that burns through the last two finished rough drafts in my body of work.)
A universal complaint. The objective is to fight your way into mastery of the language in order to draw ever closer to the elusive goal of doing that. The more thoroughly you make the English language your bitch, the close you come to being able to make the reader see what you see, hear what you hear, smell what you smell, and feel what you feel. Of course, they will never match up with you exactly, because they are different souls.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
extrinsic, you might think from reading the first chapter online that he does focus on plot rather than character. However, Chapter two, which is three times as long as chapter one, focuses on developing three dimensional characters.
As I said, it's an interesting book and has helped me in deciding to go from writing by the seat of my pants to a more structured style. Which is actually hard work. However, even in the first instance, it has provided me with fresh insights into how I can write a story. And, best of all, in giving me a destination and a purpose in the story, I can dismiss the extraneous and concentrate on that story.
Phil.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Egri in commentary elsewhere is cited in opposition to Aristotle as believing plot is of greater importance than character for dramatic works. Aristotle favors character approaches. I think both are contingent on each other. Jerome Sterne talks about starting somewhere, anywhere, and seeing where the start leads, be it setting, plot, idea or theme, character, event, or discourse. But yes, Egri's premise principle I find a valuable, noteworthy approach. Ayn Rand espouses a similar principle, though she calls it a theme-conflict, which is also similar to my understanding of dramatic complication. Egri's is nearly identical to Rand's from basing a thematic and dramatic premise upon motivations and stakes and an outcome.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
As I recall, Egri expressed an interesting attitude toward characters in that he felt if a character wasn't doing what the author wanted in a story, then the author should "fire" that character and put a new character in its place.
Which isn't surprising when you consider that the book is more for playwrights than for fiction writers, and if an actor isn't working in a play production, it is easier (and makes more sense, most of the time) to get a different actor for the part, than to rewrite the play.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
Personally, I am enchanted when a character "becomes a real boy" and reacts to the setting and plot in unexpected and often truer ways than I initally imagined.
In my six decades, I have learned that I am not always right. And I should listen more.
Just ask my wife and daughter.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
My own take on Egri's ideas is that once I've found the premise of my story, I then create the characters I need to prove that premise is true. During the creation process, I'm finding that an organic approach works best for me. I know what I have to prove so, as I create my protagonist, I find that I am constantly having to re-imagine milieu, plot, structure and supporting cast.
For instance, the premise for one of my stories is: The more deeply you understand a situation, the fewer choices you have available to you. In my original draft, I'd started in medias res, but that can't work now. In the 'Premised' story, I need to show that my protagonist has full freedom to choose whatever she wants. As the dramatic complication (as extrinsic would say) is revealed, at every crisis the choices available to both the protagonist and antagonist are reduced in number. At the climax, both the protagonist and antagonist have only two choices; to act in the only way possible to them, or not to act at all. Acting has dire consequences, so does not acting.
Egri's argument is that you create the characters you need to prove your premise. I can see how that's possible while still having a character driven story.
Phil.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
quote:Grumpy old guy posted: The more deeply you understand a situation, the fewer choices you have available to you.
As a premise, in Egri's vernacular, does that fully realize the premise, the outcome anyway? Fewer choices might leave variables open that don't close in an ending, leave open-ended an ending. Until one inevitable choice is left closes an ending. A premise like an eager man will dash upon his ambition seems complete in Egri's sense of a premise for a tragedy.
The more deeply a man understands his desparate situation, the more he knows there can only be one bitter end.
As a reader coming to know that, I'd hope a hero doesn't confront the bitter end, but allow it's inevitable, and be pleasantly surprised by an abrupt and profound discovery and a reversal that saves the hero through his own doing at great personal cost, for a comedy.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
I wrote that premise in those words because they worked for me. I could have written: Complete knowledge leads to complete certainty. To me, it means the same thing. However there are nuances contained within my original that are prompts for me as I develop character and plot.
And, the premise isn't genre specific and does not necessarily lead to a 'bad end'. In a romance, for example, as the two characters learn more about each other, their union becomes inevitable. In a mystery, once the problem is solved, the protagonist is left with only one choice: turn in the antagonist or let them go.
Anyway, that's my take on it at the moment. However, as I learn more, that may change.
Phil.
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
To quote Mr. Spock, "There are always alternatives."
Two people might know each other perfectly, yet still choose not to be together because it would be morally wrong. In a mystery, once you (for example) find a killer you can turn them loose, or kill them yourself, or blackmail them, or turn them in anonymously so you don't have to testify, or turn them in and claim a reward, etc.
Unless, of course, the murderer is a hit man for the mafia and you have a family that is vulnerable to retaliation. In which case you have the choice of leaving, or framing someone else for the report and letting the mob go after them for revenge. Etc.
The number of choices are determined by the ethical code and mindset of the character, and their physical ability.
Posted by MattLeo (Member # 9331) on :
Which is more important, plot or characterization. What does that question even mean?
In this conversation, it seems to be a vague way of asking this question: if a conflict between your preconceived character and preconceived plot arises in the course of drafting a story, which should take precedent?
I see no reason to choose a one-size-fits-all answer to that question. The answer should depend on circumstances. If you are writing a Sherlock Holmes story, obviously the character of Sherlock Holmes can't be monkeyed with to make your plot work. If you are writing a historical novel about the final fatal flight of Amelia Earhart, you can't change the end of the story because it's inconsistent with your concept of the characters.
Most cases will fall in between these extremes, and it doesn't matter how you resolve a conflict so long as it doesn't appear in the final product.
The question of which takes precedence should ultimately be moot. You want *both* your plotting and characterization to be top-notch, and to work with each other. From a practical viewpoint, bad plotting happens to be more immediately fatal to a book than bad characterization. First, you can't always tell the characterization is flat until the story is substantially complete. And it's quite common for novels with weak characterization to be commercially successful, so long as the book is a "page-turner".
But I consider a book with weak characterization to be at least as great a failure as a book with weak plotting, although it might be easier to read.
My theory is that plotting ties into a human trait of arranging events into a predictable narrative. It's a powerful survival instinct. I think of a book's plot as a kind of software program that erects a narrative structure in the reader's mind; if the pieces feel like they're coming together that drives the reader further into the ms.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
Exactly, rcmann. In order to prove your premise you have to create characters who will do it using their own world view and value system. These detirmin on the choices available to the character.
MattLeo, according to Egri, if you do a good job of creating your characters in such a way that they will prove your premise, the outcome of the story, and hence the plot, will seem inevitable to the reader. The premise has nothing to do with the plot, rather it is about the theme. So, finding and using a premise is in essence, plotting and creating characters at the same time.
At least that's how I'm approaching the task.
Phil.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
I don't know if Egri explores the art of misdirection. I haven't encountered any recent poetics writer who does, maybe Damon Knight scratches at the edges of the idea in Creating Short Fiction, 1997. E.M. Forster does to a degree in Aspects of the Novel, 1927. Though many readers and writers and critics express how an artful twist, a misdirection, major turn of the anagonoris and peripetia varieties, can make a narrative ring a profound and resonant peel.
Except Aristotle and Freytag do to a degree explore artful misdirection. And H.P. Grice, a linguistician, explores principles of misdirection and straightforward dialectics in his treatises on implicature, Cooperation Principle, and the Gricean Maxims.
One manner of artful misdirection poses an intangible though accessible meaning through a tangible meaning. Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Bergeron" is a strong example of artful misdirection. Ray Bradbury's "There Will Come Soft Rains" is another. K.D. Wentworth's "Kaleidoscope" too. O Henry's "Gift of the Magi" is a different though nonetheless artful type of misdirection. A short story I most admire that involves artful misdirection of a folklorish type is Joyce Carol Oates' "Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been." Except for "Kaleidoscope," they all can be accessed online free.
Posted by MattLeo (Member # 9331) on :
That's an interesting thought, Phil, but it presumes a more linear mode of working than I use. It is true that premise firms up before plot and characterization do for me, but there's a kind of conversation that goes on first between the characters and the premise, and the premise often shifts radically.
For example I came up with a premise which was to write a satire of Ruritanian Romance in which a cynical and selfish young Ruritanian who despite his best efforts keeps getting mixed up in old-fashioned Prisoner of Zenda style adventures. After writing some test scenes, the problem with this premise became apparent. To make it funny, the anti-hero's unpleasant characteristics have to be overblown to the point where he's a bit repulsive, and his cynical values undermined to devastating effect.
What the protagonist needed was a foil, someone who embodies all the old-fashioned, heroic virtues he rejects. But introducing such a character changes the center of balance of the story. It's no longer just about the young anti-hero, but the anti-hero's excruciating friendship with someone he loves and admires, but resents for making him feel painfully inadequate. It became a redemption story. That's more the kind of premise that fits with my writing style.
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
So once again, characters take the bit between their teeth and go galloping across the countryside, with the hapless writer clinging to the saddle horn and screaming, "Whoa!"
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
MattLeo, my take on your complaint would be that the story you thought you wanted to write wasn't actually the story you were writing. It took me a year to come up with my premise, after writing a 90,000 word first draft. While I liked that first draft, with the *right* premise, I like the way the story is looking now a whole lot better. And, it has a better internal structure.
Most likely it is as rcmann says: The plot and characters are the tiger, we're the fools with our hands gripping its ears.
As for misdirection, I'm a bit afraid of it. Oh, I've used it, I think, very sparingly on occasion, however I get the feeling that modern readers may feel as if they've been duped.
Phil.
PS: I think we've hijacked Dr bob's post. Soooorry.
Posted by extrinsic (Member # 8019) on :
Different misdirection than in which readers feel duped.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: PS: I think we've hijacked Dr bob's post. Soooorry.
Not a problem. I'm eating a bit of crow right now (I hope it is kosher for Passover) though I still love/hate writing.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
I recommend mustard, with a sprinkle of garlic salt.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Could you include the crow in the same category as the bitter herbs?
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury: Could you include the crow in the same category as the bitter herbs?
Tov meod! Possibly, Kathleen, possibly.
Though this would be more analogous to the current period of suffering in not knowing if one will or will not be among the three WOTF winners, a decision that may take weeks (or even months!) Nick T kindly shared with me today.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
This is a love day. With this an "off" week, I'm on the slopes and/or on my netbook typing away at my newest WIP endeavor.
And as much as I too often fail to take good advise, like Ms Woodbury's "Do not revise the beginning until you reach the story's end" (I won't share the hours I at time will spend reconsidering and revising a single sentence, only to consider omitting it as being "too much verbage"--oy!), I've tapped out 2K new words so far today!
I may even finish the completed firstish draft by Thursday (kein en horah--Yid. "ward the evil eye"), over a week before our Hatrack Group 2013 WOTF Q3 first draft deadline.
Wouldn't that be something.
If it weren't for the need to earn a living, and the continued lack of publication, I could really enjoy this writing thing.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
[ April 01, 2013, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: History ]
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
Publication is up to you. The only thing that getting published by someone else tells you, is that you happened to find a particular individual at a particular time and place who was looking for your particular type of story. Which is nice for the ego I guess. But so is tossing it out there like a fishing lure and watching total strangers snap it up. The choice is yours.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
I have no bias toward self-publishing, rc. I do have bias against self-publishing crap and am versed in Sturgeon's Law.
I have yet to develop an internal editor who can make this determination with my own stories with sufficient accuracy.
I do so enjoy my own tales...at least until time passes and I can then objectively view my newborn children absent the self-blinding joy experienced at their birth (and smell their diapers in various states of distention).
It is the independent reviewer from whom I receive the best sense that I have something to offer, and the more "professional" their credentials, the better the inspirational bounce I receive.
Even so, I suspect I may self-publish some of what I perceive as the better of my passed-over work someday. I'm not getting any younger.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
I am blessed with both friends and family who hold degrees in science and in teaching, and who hold not the slightest mercy in their hearts toward my screw ups. The longer I continue writing, the less patient they become. If this continues, I may yet write something worth reading.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
quote:Originally posted by rcmann: I may yet write something worth reading.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
You know, there's no earthly reason not to epublish a short story or two on smashwords or amazon. Just to get your feet wet and see what happens. The worst that can happen is that nobody reads it, and nobody is reading it now are they? How are you any worse off? You might get hooked.
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
That suggestion intrigues me enough that I might actually look into it. Might be an improvment over posting my rejects every-so-often on my website...
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
So have you got any links for it? A quick search on Amazon-dot-com directed me to assorted books and e-books to purchase on the subject...maybe it was there but I didn't see it.
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
There are online help files at both sites. I personally find Smashwords to be more user friendly for a beginner. Plus it offers a couple of free books to help get you started with formatting, and some tips for marketing.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
Dr. Bob may have other ideas but since he is doing better at the moment--with his writing and hopefully with his body--I thought I might take this over.
Decided I needed to rant at my writing.
I just can't get past that plateau I've been on for the last four years, as I have said before but I'm still there. Stuck half way up that mountain--again I thought I was making headway and again haven't moved. Need to my voice again or stop doing the same mistakes I keep making.
Thought I would send another story to F&SF this weekend but it is longer and needs more work than I remembered. Of course it needs work--lots of it but I mean work I can do on it. Give Scott P. there a longer break which he might appreciate even though he probably doesn't read my stories all the way through anyway.
Thought about sending that story Scott rejected cleanly but can't figure out where to send a just under 10,000 word story. I just sent one to IGMS.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
Read the best worse rejection thread Then:
That was one of my better as in writing, stories too.
But that is my writing so that isn't saying much.
Posted by Grumpy old guy (Member # 9922) on :
LDWriter2, having read most of your posts over the last few weeks, I get the feeling that you are trying too hard to follow other peoples advice. Btw, I'm great at giving advice, and it's worth exactly what anyone pays for it: not much, if anything at all.
Right at the moment I'm wading through the 'advice' of Aristotle, Freytag and Egri; acknowledged by quite a few as Master of the craft of writing. If I tried to implement everything they're telling me I should do in my own writing, I'd be a real mess.
I think you should go back to basics, keeping in mind what you've learned so far, but being extremely skeptical about including it in your own writing. Start a new story and keep it simple; starting with character and milieu, then add the dramatic complication that starts the hero/heroine on their journey, add a bit of danger/intrigue, and then a bit more until you're at the height of tension and want, then, resolution and the hero/heroine triumphs. Or, if you're into tragedy, you can add the sudden reversal where everything that seemed good was, in fact, bad, and the hero is now a broken fool.
And now the disclaimer: My advice is worth exactly what you see in it and nothing more.
Phil.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
Well, LD, this is the thread to rant in. Like Grumpy, I am also loathe to advise others on their writing. I've no professional sales credit to claim any expertise--and even then, I'd still be reticent.
We are here at Hatrack to support and constructively critique each other, however. Therefore, having read a few of your stories and novel chapters, I'll share my two shekels for you to spend or toss away however you wish:
Your word and story output and determinedness is something I envy. Your strength is your imagination, admirably limitless (your reworking of the UF genre is great). Your weakness, in my humble opinion is transferring this smoothly to the page. Simple mechanics and, therefore, possibly the easiest thing to correct.
Have you considered re-reading William Strunk's classic The Elements of Style? I still find it relevant and helpful. I also recommend John Gardner's books on writing The Art of Fiction" and "On Becoming a Novelist". I found much that was useful in the post-autobiographical half of Stephen King's On Writing.
I am finding that Continuing Education which is required for me as a physician is just as essential for me as a newbie writer. And when I feel I am in a rut, it provides the help I need to get out.
Grumpy's suggestion is excellent: "Start a new story and keep it simple; starting with character and milieu, then add the dramatic complication that starts the hero/heroine on their journey, add a bit of danger/intrigue, and then a bit more until you're at the height of tension and want, then, resolution and the hero/heroine triumphs."
Keep it simple. That would be a great exercise. I should try it sometime.
Just my two shekels.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
The best advice i ever got from reading online is to finish the story you are on, then write another one. Then another one. Then another one. Eventually you can go back and fix the old one if you want to, but only after you have enough of them under your belt to be able to take a glance and see instantly what's wrong with it. if you can't see anything wrong with it, either you haven't advanced enough, or (this is quite likely) there's nothing wrong with it and the editor simply didn't happen to be in the mood for that particular story.
Or do what I did. Write 'em, put 'em out there. If one sells, great. If not, oh well. Write another one, put it out there.
Two weeks ago, i happened to google something and by accident found a review of one of my older short stories on a private blog. I never knew it was there, although the review was written soon after the story went live, nearly a year ago. It was a glowing review by a reader in the UK, and I never had any idea that they liked it because they never sent me an email, and like I said it was imply someone's person blog. But they had bought my story and loved it. All these months it had sat there, until i happened to stumble across it.
That was worth it all to me. I'm gonna be googling more from now on:)
Screw the world's opinion. March to your own drummer.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumpy old guy: LDWriter2, having read most of your posts over the last few weeks, I get the feeling that you are trying too hard to follow other peoples advice. Btw, I'm great at giving advice, and it's worth exactly what anyone pays for it: not much, if anything at all.
Right at the moment I'm wading through the 'advice' of Aristotle, Freytag and Egri; acknowledged by quite a few as Master of the craft of writing. If I tried to implement everything they're telling me I should do in my own writing, I'd be a real mess.
I think you should go back to basics, keeping in mind what you've learned so far, but being extremely skeptical about including it in your own writing. Start a new story and keep it simple; starting with character and milieu, then add the dramatic complication that starts the hero/heroine on their journey, add a bit of danger/intrigue, and then a bit more until you're at the height of tension and want, then, resolution and the hero/heroine triumphs. Or, if you're into tragedy, you can add the sudden reversal where everything that seemed good was, in fact, bad, and the hero is now a broken fool.
And now the disclaimer: My advice is worth exactly what you see in it and nothing more.
Phil.
Thanks for the response.
I might be trying too hard to follow advice even though supposedly I have cut down on that for the last few stories. Which includes the one I sent to IGMS.
And don't take this how it might sound but once I've started working on the character and milieu it's no longer simple.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
quote:Originally posted by History: Well, LD, this is the thread to rant in. Like Grumpy, I am also loathe to advise others on their writing. I've no professional sales credit to claim any expertise--and even then, I'd still be reticent.
We are here at Hatrack to support and constructively critique each other, however. Therefore, having read a few of your stories and novel chapters, I'll share my two shekels for you to spend or toss away however you wish:
Your word and story output and determinedness is something I envy. Your strength is your imagination, admirably limitless (your reworking of the UF genre is great). Your weakness, in my humble opinion is transferring this smoothly to the page. Simple mechanics and, therefore, possibly the easiest thing to correct.
Have you considered re-reading William Strunk's classic The Elements of Style? I still find it relevant and helpful. I also recommend John Gardner's books on writing The Art of Fiction" and "On Becoming a Novelist". I found much that was useful in the post-autobiographical half of Stephen King's On Writing.
I am finding that Continuing Education which is required for me as a physician is just as essential for me as a newbie writer. And when I feel I am in a rut, it provides the help I need to get out.
Grumpy's suggestion is excellent: "Start a new story and keep it simple; starting with character and milieu, then add the dramatic complication that starts the hero/heroine on their journey, add a bit of danger/intrigue, and then a bit more until you're at the height of tension and want, then, resolution and the hero/heroine triumphs."
Keep it simple. That would be a great exercise. I should try it sometime.
Just my two shekels.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Thanks to you too.
And as in my last note, don't take this the way it might sound here.
But simple mechanics aren't that easy or I would have solved that problem a couple of years ago. No matter what I learn I seem to keep making the same basic mistakes.
And even though it has been a few months I have done some continual education. I read "On Writing" and a couple of other books, taken an online workshop. Listened to people here and on the other forum as well as to pro writers.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
quote:Originally posted by rcmann: The best advice i ever got from reading online is to finish the story you are on, then write another one. Then another one. Then another one. Eventually you can go back and fix the old one if you want to, but only after you have enough of them under your belt to be able to take a glance and see instantly what's wrong with it. if you can't see anything wrong with it, either you haven't advanced enough, or (this is quite likely) there's nothing wrong with it and the editor simply didn't happen to be in the mood for that particular story.
Or do what I did. Write 'em, put 'em out there. If one sells, great. If not, oh well. Write another one, put it out there.
Two weeks ago, i happened to google something and by accident found a review of one of my older short stories on a private blog. I never knew it was there, although the review was written soon after the story went live, nearly a year ago. It was a glowing review by a reader in the UK, and I never had any idea that they liked it because they never sent me an email, and like I said it was imply someone's person blog. But they had bought my story and loved it. All these months it had sat there, until i happened to stumble across it.
That was worth it all to me. I'm gonna be googling more from now on:)
Screw the world's opinion. March to your own drummer.
That part I have down. Got three stories I'm actively working on now. I've been told I'm a natural born storyteller even but neither of those things are helping. Last night I decided to needed to work on a story instead of critting, thought about starting a new one with lots of action as space battles, but ended up working on one I hadn't worked on for a week and a half at least. I did the opening during that online workshop--Dean Wesley Smith said it was a powerful opening and I should do the rest of the story but try to what he calls crash different genre together. Something like Dr. Bob does on his own. So I thought about it for a few weeks finally decided to go with my original idea for it. But I'm not quite sure about one plot point. Would it really fit or not. It would make the story more complicated and longer but is it really needed? Can I explain another plot point without it? It's basically like another story I just did. Realtionship-UF-paranormal with a touch of horror. The other one had more than a touch of horror though. So I feel like I should go with the more complicated tale even though I'm not quiet sure of one other point.
I have received one great review--six years ago--and a couple of critiquers have said something positive about my stories so I know the feeling,
Keep looking your stories probably have more good reviews but watch out for the bad ones too. Mary Robinette Kowal received a scathing review not that long ago. If she can so can you or the rest of us.
[ May 04, 2013, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: LDWriter2 ]
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
One of my latest blog posts explores more ranting on this subject.
Hopefully no one is offended by one line in it.
Posted by babooher (Member # 8617) on :
Grrr...I've written about 5,000 words of a story. I like the story. I like the writing. I...realized tonight that it took me 5,000 words to get to the real beginning of the story.
5,000 words of plot, world building, characterization. I suppose I'm going in the right direction, but this two steps forward, one step back crap sucks.
Rant over. Time to write.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
quote:Originally posted by babooher: Grrr...I've written about 5,000 words of a story. I like the story. I like the writing. I...realized tonight that it took me 5,000 words to get to the real beginning of the story.
5,000 words of plot, world building, characterization. I suppose I'm going in the right direction, but this two steps forward, one step back crap sucks.
Rant over. Time to write.
I have a couple of stories like that...after many words of explaining things: world building., introduction etc., I wonder if they should be novels-novellas instead. One is an interesting steampunk set in the US with two federal agents--both new and one female one male--took me way too long to get all the introduction out of the way for a short story.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
Ugh. This is becoming a bad habit.
I'm struggling painfully through 1500 words the last couple days, and I mean ALL day, while I try to get my binge writing gears lubricated and put into high gear. I've got three more days free for writing with over 14K written of a story and two more scenes to go...and what I've just written is merely a transition to them (and may have to go ultimately).
It's like getting 3/4 of the way to the mountain top and finding the trail suddenly overgrown with briars or finding an unexpected oily bog swallowing the path. I can see the mountaintop. It is so close, but it's hell getting to it.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
I know that feeling. Sometimes I just can't get what's in my head written out. And sometimes it feels like wading through mud, I just keep going because I have to get to the place I want to be at.
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
I am in the middle of something similar. Book 2 of my trilogy starts with a divided plot line, two protagonists running separately, then they join up about three fourths of the way through the book. I'm finally closing in on finishing the first of the two separate initial plot lines, and I'm already above 76k words. The second line is barely begun, and I haven't even finished carving out the final shape of the conjoined line. Like LDWriter2 said, I just keep slogging through, knowing that eventually I'm going to be scraping a lot of mud.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
I've been working on a story for a long time. I tried finishing it today, but everything I've written is crap. I'm looking forward to the day when all these writing attempts result in my actually being good at writing.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
mayflower988, feeling that way about what you've written is something that happens to writers a lot as they grow and learn. I think it's partly because their critical skills tend to outpace their writing skills over time.
The thing to do is to keep writing, even if you're convinced it's crap. Eventually, your writing skills will catch up with your critical skills and you won't hate what you write--for a while, at least.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
That explains a lot, Kathleen. I'm still waiting for that "eventually", however.
It takes a long time for me to go from hating what I write to (in relative terms) "loving" it. And this happens with writing each new story.
For me, the old adage is true: writing is one part inspiration and ninety-nine parts perspiration.
My first drafts are painfully written, which is likely why I "hate" writing them. They're lumps of smelly wet clay scraped one tiny spoonful at a time from the morass inside of my skull, and best described as "ugly potential."
It would be so much better if I could go from Inspiration directly to my second or third drafts. The clay has achieved a clearer semblance of form by then and I can play with words and sentence flow, carving and molding here and there until I'm closer to the tale I initially envisioned. I enjoy this part of writing second best (what is best is returning to a finished tale months or years after it is written and finding nothing I would change).
In awe, I recently watched youtube clips of Brandon Sanderson writing the first draft of the second volume of his Stormlight Archives (you are watching his words appear on his word processor) http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3g-w83Cb5pEAu5UmRrge-A Smooth and flowing, like cool water flowing from an open tap. That is what I aspire to.
Respectfully, D. Bob
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
After a discussion some of us on another forum-which isn't around as a forum anymore--pretty agreed that when it comes to our own writing our inner critic likes to come out and play.
There's even a saying that goes something like a writer is the worse judge of his-hers own writing. Meaning we over criticize our own writing. Even though I think sometimes it goes the opposite way too. We like our writing too much.
That is suppose to be especially true of beginners. I know writers who had stories they thought were crap only to have that one be sold or won first. The story they spent tons of time on and thought fantastic never got a second look even from a number of editors.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Oh, good. This is all very reassuring. I managed to finish a rough draft of the story last night, and I posted a request for readers. We'll see how that goes. Maybe eventually some publisher will think my story is non-crap. :)
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Brandon Sanderson, as you may have heard, completed ten full novels before he felt he had reached the point where anything he wrote could be submitted to publishers and have any hope of acceptance.
He may seem to have it easy now, but he worked hard to get where he is.
"Eventually" comes to those who don't quit working for it.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
Some writers reach that stage immediately others, as I know, take a whole lot longer than even average.
But hard work usually pays off in whatever field.
Posted by tesknota (Member # 10041) on :
Kathleen, I also don't have any intention of submitting to publishers anytime soon. When I cross the threshold of no-longer-embarrassing, I'll know that I'm ready to be published. I'm trying to learn and improve in the meantime.
I'm aiming for that 'eventually', though I sincerely hope that it will come sooner rather than later.
[ June 16, 2013, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: tesknota ]
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury: Brandon Sanderson, as you may have heard, completed ten full novels before he felt he had reached the point where anything he wrote could be submitted to publishers and have any hope of acceptance.
He may seem to have it easy now, but he worked hard to get where he is.
"Eventually" comes to those who don't quit working for it.
(chuckle) If I can write "ten full novels" in my remaining lifetime, I'll be pleased.
I'm not saying I wish to match his achievements as a published author (I know I will not), but I would like to transition my inspiration to written word as easily and coherently as he demonstrates on the links I provided.
It would be a shame to only achieve this when I'm too old, however. (smile)
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by tesknota (Member # 10041) on :
Wow, Dr. Bob! Thanks for sharing those links. I've never seen the creative process being streamed like that before. Mind blown. This should be required of all my favorite authors.
You know what? I think it would be awesome if we could get a group of us on Hatrack to all download the trial version of Camtasia (that's what Sanderson's using) or some similar software and record ourselves typing something short - the first 13 lines, or a piece of flash fiction. It would be such a neat way to see how each of us approaches the craft. It would definitely be a great learning experience.
But I'm not sure how tech-savvy we are here on Hatrack... hm. (If anyone wants to do this - seriously, I'm game.)
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
I would need to have the video play at hyperspeed, otherwise the viewer would watch for hours as I obsessively-compulsively plod away at a few paragraphs.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
Mine would be start and stop not to mention backskiping too.
But at the moment I'm more on the hate side of writing or more like the why bother side.
Posted by tesknota (Member # 10041) on :
Oh, mine would definitely be full of deleting and editing. A typed rant about how nothing sounds good will probably exist briefly somewhere in the middle. I may or may not be too lazy to edit out the parts that involve perusing the internet for the sake of procrastination.
Still, I would be interested in watching all of your videos... maybe at 3x speed. =D
Posted by rcmann (Member # 9757) on :
I get annoyed with people hanging over my shoulder while I write. My family will tell you that I am unfit for human company when trying to hammer out a story. Most likely knowing that I was being recorded would destroy my ability to create anything.
Posted by tesknota (Member # 10041) on :
Then I probably shouldn't tell you about the NSA...
=) kidding. (or am I.)
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
Misery loves company, 'tis said. Perhaps strange to say, but you all make me feel better.
... and your troubles have inspired me to dedicate this afternoon to continuing my current WIP (despite it being too long to submit anywhere).
Respectfully, Dr. Bob Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
There one or three markets that want novelettes or novellas even though they usually don't pay much.
But if you can't find a place, start your own--maybe this should be your first attempt at e-publishing.
If you like doing things on your own and learning new skills E-publishing can be fun.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
Back to the purpose of this site. As I said going through a writing downer at the moment.
With six to eight rejections this week and possibly more to come since it isn't Late Saturday yet. It would be a fine time for that very late Analog rejection to come in. They have been very slow getting all the new staff situated over there.
As I said on another thread would have been nice to have gotten at least one encouraging personal note this week for my birthday but not even that.
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
Well, you could always do what I do, LD. Only complete two or three stories a year. And make them too long for nearly all markets Then you'll never have to worry about getting "six to eight rejections" in a week.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
P.S. The "purpose" of this thread (for me) is to kvetch about the process and act of writing, not what happens after.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
Well, its the act of writing that produces what comes afterward.
In other words afterwards is lousy--if I could figure out how to stop making the same mistakes the process would better-- because my process and act is mediocre and that afterwards produced by mediocrity makes the act harder to do. At least for a while.
But okay I hear,
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
*sigh* I am frustrated with my novel right now. I'm doing this for Camp NaNo; it's supposed to be a realistic-sounding medieval fantasy. I'm having trouble coming up with stuff to go in the middle, as in things to develop the characters and show their growth process. I've got the beginning, and I'm pretty sure I know how I want the ending to go (though I haven't written it yet), but the middle part is tripping me up. Quite frankly, I'm getting intimidated by this whole concept of writing a full-fledged novel. I'm only at 7000 words or so, and I'm shooting for 50,000. (I thought that would be a good goal for my first NaNo.) Anyway, encouragement, tips, commiseration, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
quote:Originally posted by mayflower988: *sigh* I am frustrated with my novel right now. I'm doing this for Camp NaNo; it's supposed to be a realistic-sounding medieval fantasy. I'm having trouble coming up with stuff to go in the middle, as in things to develop the characters and show their growth process. I've got the beginning, and I'm pretty sure I know how I want the ending to go (though I haven't written it yet), but the middle part is tripping me up. Quite frankly, I'm getting intimidated by this whole concept of writing a full-fledged novel. I'm only at 7000 words or so, and I'm shooting for 50,000. (I thought that would be a good goal for my first NaNo.) Anyway, encouragement, tips, commiseration, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I've had that problem and I believe many other writers have too at one time or another.
I put in a couple of side trips in mine. I've notice that sometimes a hero will end up doing something else for one chapter than get back to the main course. Sometimes in that side trip he finds something or figures out something that helps him in the end but not every time. Maybe put in a little romance or he-she-it has to go to a wedding gets involved with bandits on the way. I don't know what type of bad guy you have but is it possible for them to send some type of assassin after the hero? If she-he-it has to travel a storm could come up. If there is more than one person--as in a group--on the hero's side maybe one could get kidnapped by a strange cult and has to be rescued. If your hero is on a ship might it be a Navy ship, and on the way has to take a detour to get a pirate and run through a storm?
Does he-it-she have to find something? If so than a chapter gong through some strange old ruins or two? Searching over a small island maybe? Both? Maybe your hero hears his mother is dying of some strange thing the bad guy is doing so they head over to see her one last time and end up fighting the minions of the bad guy or just a tribe of bandits.
Is any of this close? If so does it help?
Posted by History (Member # 9213) on :
Ah..."middles".
The journey between our known starting point and our anticipated destination. Personally, I've found truth in the old adage "To travel is better than to arrive" and "It is the journey, not the destination."
I often find my initally unimagined "middles" to contain better writing than my pre-convceived begginings and endings. They can delight and surprise me because I did not anticipate them. It is like discovering an unexpected pristine pool and waterful off the hiking path or that chance discovery of a little hole-in-the wall cafe on a quaint side street that serves the best lamb shish and the perfect mojito. You get to enjoy the fresh surprise and wonder of it just as your readers will later.
Thus, I suggest two courses if you know (truly know) your starting point, your destination, and your protagonist:
1) Just write. Enjoy the process of traveling. To make it easier, set up a few stops along the way (i.e. conflicts, internal and external, you will have your protagonist face). This can form a loose outline or you can plan a more detailed one if you so require.
2) Write the ending you know. Get it out of your system. Pin it. Then go to (1) above. You can, and may likely, rewrite the ending when you later reach it.
Respectfully, Dr. Bob
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
LD: Those are all very good suggestions. I'm not sure if I can use them. Maybe the storm one. But I want to make sure I'm not sticking things into my story for no reason. Maybe this is just me, but I have to have a reason for each setback that happens. Not so much a causal (causal, not casual) reason as an effectual reason, i.e. some kind of payoff. For example, my heroine sets out on a long journey to find a doctor. On the way, her money is stolen. When she finds the doctor, he refuses to return with her because she has no money to pay him. I'll consider the storm idea, since that's something I haven't thought of before, but I can't use it until I figure out what the result of the storm would be. Hmm...actually, now that I think about it, I may be able to think of a purpose for the storm. Stay tuned.
Dr. Bob: I like the idea of just writing and seeing where that takes me, but I've tried that last year with this same story and ended up with a lot of mess that I wasn't able to use. That's why I'm starting this story over for Camp NaNo, because I just needed to throw out the mess I'd made and start fresh. However, I like the idea of writing the ending first and then doing that wandering writing for the middle. I may try that. Maybe if I "get it out of my system" then I'll be able to work on the middle.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
I tried to throw out ideas that not only you could use but that might trigger your own Muse into a new lines of thought.
I know I have read novels where sometimes the hero or heroine gets involved with an event that has nothing to do with their mission or adventure. It sounds like you don't like those types of scenes even tough as I said some use it. Maybe the event gives some insight into the hero and explains why he or in your case she does something later.
Maybe in one example I used the hero hears his mother is in danger so heads off to his home town. Maybe after a short battle with the people causing his mother troubles he decides that since she is in town after all she could check out the local branch of the King's library. She will just have to sneak into the section for Nobles. She does and just before she is discovered she finds a reference to a the same quest she is on. The item she is looking for is in a tricky spot. Even the best GPS spells get off because something around there makes it point off from True North. Now if she could only get a good GPS spell.
Or in the case you used. Maybe-depending if she is a fighter--she or the group with her, are attacked by a bandit gang. It doesn't go their way however and many of the bandits are killed. She goes through their stuff and finds enough money to pay the doctor. Or if she sings or dances she joins a troupe until she raises the money. Or again depending on what type of person she is. Some rich guy-Lord-high ranking officer wants her to spend the night with him. She says yes but once at the guy's Mansion-castle she changed her mind and sneaks out. Maybe runs into a burglar who either she can turn in for the reward or she joins them for a couple of burglaries.
Or??? anything else along those lines.
Oh, I do the just writing thing too at times. It seems to make sense and goes along with the plot but I still feel like it's garbage.
There are quite a few writers who write the end first or half way through. They like it better that way. I think I have done that one time but as I implied, it works for some writers,
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
One more thing I just thought of.
Sometimes you may add something for extra words but later figure out how to use it. In the novel I am working on for Indiezing I added a scene where some tries for vengeance-even though he didn't deserve any- against my MC. After being drugged she has to fight the guy in a dark alley. Just something to give her show she is willing to do what ever it takes to win but later I came up with an idea. During her escape from the guy she does something that shows how the bad guy can do something he isn't suppose to be able to do. So there is a connection after all.
Later there is another fight between my MC and some strange being who has been influencing her thoughts and feelings. It's not only what I think of as a great scene for her and my writing the fight frees her, which makes battling the big bad guy a little easier because she is free from an influence she didn't even know about. It also explained her feelings for and her actions around her friends.
So maybe come up with a scene now but think of the connection later. Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Funny you should mention that. That's actually what happened for me with the scene I mentioned about the thieves taking my heroine's money. :) I put that scene in there originally to show that traveling in this world is dangerous, especially for a young woman traveling alone, but then it occurred to me that there was the possibility for further tension/complication due to her money being stolen. I was able to come up with a synopsis, and I posted it over at the "Feedback for Books" forum. However, I shared it with my brother, who is also a writer, and he pointed something out to me that didn't seem to work. So now I'm trying to think of an event to delay my MC so that the opposition character has enough time to fall deathly ill. If you get a chance, maybe you could take a look at the synopsis and tell me what you think? I'm thinking maybe a storm could prevent my MC from traveling (thanks for the idea), but I'd like to brainstorm some other options, just to have a variety of choices.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
I should have thought of this sooner but another way to add words is to lengthen a scene. This is a novel so--in case you have not yet--add her thoughts, the five humans senses--in the original idea of thieves does one grab her hand and twist the hand so his skin rubs hers, how did the smell etc--and emotions. Not just say she feared for her life but expand on that some. And describe her fear: heartrate jumping through the roof, thoughts going through her head, emotions. Does she freeze or try to run? Does she swear to learn to use a sword or staff or hand to hand fighting?
And the visit with the Doctor. Again if you haven't done all this. How does the place smell? Does he smoke a cigar? Does he shake her hand with over long cuffs that rub her skin? Is he friendly or a complete snob?
Taste would hard to do but maybe he could offer her wine or even just water after a long trip.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Good to know. Wish me luck!
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
You know, I think the more I write, the more I realize I need to learn. I know I can't expect very much from my first novel, but is there any hope for it getting published one day?
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Of course there's hope. The more you write, the more you learn, the better you can become. Don't give up and there's no telling what you can do.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
Thanks. I've gotten really attached to this story and my MC, so I really want to get her story published, even more than I did when I started working on it.
Posted by LDWriter2 (Member # 9148) on :
quote:Originally posted by mayflower988: You know, I think the more I write, the more I realize I need to learn. I know I can't expect very much from my first novel, but is there any hope for it getting published one day?
I know the feeling about writing. When I started I didn't know there were rules or guidelines etc.
And even though many writers didn't get published until their third to fifth book many have been picked on their very first novel. And a few were told no but to send in another book which was picked up. Later they went back and got that first one published.
So still a good chance for your first.
Posted by tesknota (Member # 10041) on :
I'm working on my most important novel idea first. I've thought about it a lot and I've decided that I'd rather not wait to write this novel after a few practice ones. Maybe it's only the most important one at this point in my life, and a far more important one will come to me later. I've decided to seize the moment.
But does this mean that I will bury the truths I wish to convey through my novel with inadequacy? I sincerely hope not. But it probably will happen.
Posted by InarticulateBabbler (Member # 4849) on :
quote:You know, I think the more I write, the more I realize I need to learn.
You hit the nail directly on the head. Any artist, whether it be musician, painter, writer, tattooist or sculptor (I know, I have limited friends) have all agreed that part of what makes them strive to get better is knowing they have to. This is what is means to be an artist--striving to get better. It's all about the journey, not where you end up.
Posted by mayflower988 (Member # 9858) on :
quote:Originally posted by LDWriter2: And even though many writers didn't get published until their third to fifth book many have been picked on their very first novel. And a few were told no but to send in another book which was picked up. Later they went back and got that first one published.
So still a good chance for your first.
Thanks. I needed to hear that. Even if it doesn't happen now, it might happen later.
quote:Originally posted by InarticulateBabbler: This is what is means to be an artist--striving to get better. It's all about the journey, not where you end up.
Good point. It's a lifelong journey. I'm beginning to see that.
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