What I'm hoping for here is material I can use in the webpages leading up to this forum:

http://www.hatrack.com/writers/writers/index.shtml

http://www.hatrack.com/writers/writers/how-groups-work.shtml

http://www.hatrack.com/writers/writers/how-to-join.shtml

especially the first page up there.

What's most important to me: what I want to know in a critique is how you reacted, and when. Telling me "you have too many characters for me to keep straight" isn't as helpful as a note on page 12 saying "Bo? I forgot who Bo is."

The main reactions I want are classified easily as:
"Huh?" (I'm confused, I don't get it, or I forgot who Bo is)
"So?" (I'm bored, I don't care how the sonic screwdriver works, I don't care who Bo is)
"Oh, yeah?" (I don't find this believable, it's kicking me out of the story)
"Cool!"

It's also ok to point out typos or punctuation problems.

Rules of forum ettiquette are easy. Here are several links that could be borrowed from:

http://www.buildyourown.org.uk/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51

http://www.pudendal.info/forum/Policies.htm

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Edu/ICG/pt1.ch2.Etiquette.html

These were just three that popped up out of a search ot "internet etiquette" and "forum etiquette"

As you can see, there are some basic rules but often each forum has sort of social practices that might be acceptable elsewhere but not on forum X...the one in question.

For example, on Hatrack all topics should somehow be writing related. While some friendly social chatter is acceptable diverging too far from the topic of writing is not.

When it comes to things that are more social tradition than etiquette, I've found this to be true:

Typically, the person who starts a thread has the right to end the discussion. (This is especially true on Fragments and Feedback, where I personally have used this power to end discussions of fragments that I ship out to a publisher and therefore don't want to hear about anymore. )

Rules:

This is a forum for writers. All topics should relate to writing in some way.

When utilizing the fragments and feedback forum, do not post plagarized work or unauthorized work set in another author's world.

Refrain from using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, excessive question marks (?) or exclamation points (!) in your subject or content.

Crossposting the same question in more than one forum will cause confusion and most likely reduce the chance of a reply.

Be patient. All the participants of this forum are using the forum and participating in discussions on their own time.

Help others. The forum is a community, and works best when people share information.

Give feedback. If someone helps you by answering your question, try to add a follow-up response letting them know if it worked or not.

Read the forums before you post your topic. Your question or comment may have recently been discussed, answered, or resolved. (I modified this from the borrowed version because I encourage new members to rehash long-dead topics. I believe there is benefit from being a part of the discussion rather than reading the comments of long-gone and forgotten strangers. However; it does frustrate me when a new member fails to go back as far as the 45 days shown by default.)

Adhere to the same standards of behavior online
that you follow in real life.

Respect other people's time and bandwidth (ie keep your posts short and to the point).

Help keep flame wars under control. Do not make inflamator comments, personal attacks, or respond to inflamatory comments or personal attacks.

Be forgiving of other people's mistakes.

Constructive criticism is not the same thing as a personal attack. Learn the difference, whether you are taking or receiving.

*****

Guidelines:

Descriptive subjects and clear, detailed questions help to promote discussion.

The thread originator usually has the option to end a thread. (Especially on Fragments and Feedback.)

Specific advice on stories, even if you are not looking for feedback on a fragment, is best done in Fragments and Feedback. General discussion topics should appeal on a broader level.

The fragments and feedback forum serves you best if you provide: title (if any), word count, genre, and a specific request (ie "I want feedback on the posted fragment." or "I am interested in volunteers to read my story/chapter/novel.)

We welcome all kinds of writing and writers; however, be aware that most of the members of this board read and write prose science fiction and fantasy. Be patient if you post a poem or a fragment from a non scifi/fantasy story.

Typically, when a person posts a fragment on fragments and feedback the other members respond to the ones that interest them. If you get no response, this may be a sort of response. Do not get offended, but perhaps try posting something else.

Anyone is welcome to post a new topic or respond to an existing topic at any time. If you respond to an existing topic, do read the previous comments before responding. It is not against the rules to repeat something that has already been said, but it is potentially a waste of time and bandwidth. Try to have a new angle.

Additionally, if you post a new topic, scan the topics for at least a few weeks to make sure the topic has not been rehashed too recently. We can discuss the same things again, and in fact new members can benefit from being a part of discussions rather than reading about them, but you will probably not interest people in rediscussing something that came up in the past few weeks and it can be considered rude to not have looked into our group at least that far.

Introduce yourself in the forum for introductions. This is the best way to get started and become welcome.

******************

The thing is, a lot of that what's been posted belongs in a FAQ, not rules for board particpation.

Ideally, the rules should be short, sweet, and simple.

For instance:

1. Stay on topic.
2. Lurk, and Read the FAQs before posting.
3. Do not flame or troll other members.
4. Do not respond to flames or trolls, contact the administrator or ignore them, the latter being the easiest thing for all.
5. We expect you to behave as adults, not children. So, respect others. Opinions will vary.

Those are rules! Then, you have FAQs to cover everything else. When someone steps out of line, we chorus: "Read the FAQ."

Consider not putting in guidelines for critiquing into the "rules." Those belong in a FAQ. FAQ's can be lengthy, and could be written in a manner that is read in bits and chunks, when a member needs to have a question answered, or to know something specific.

That's my 2 pence.

Rules:

1. Show respect.

2. This is a forum for writers. All topics should relate to writing in some way.

3. Do not post plagarized work or unauthorized work set in another author's world.

4. Be patient.

5. Help others.

6. Read the forums before you post.

7. Do not start flame wars.

Moved to Guidelines (or perhaps a FAQ):

Refrain from using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, excessive question marks (?) or exclamation points (!) in your subject or content.

Crossposting the same question in more than one forum will cause confusion and most likely reduce the chance of a reply.

Give feedback. If someone helps you by answering your question, try to add a follow-up response letting them know if it worked or not.

Respect other people's time and bandwidth (ie keep your posts short and to the point).

Do not make inflamator comments, personal attacks, or respond to inflamatory comments or personal attacks. (Or in some way some answer to: "How do I stay out of a flame war?")

Be forgiving of other people's mistakes. (Also under the above question)

quote:

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

In science fiction, the Three Laws of Robotics are a set of three laws written by Isaac Asimov, which most robots appearing in his fiction have to obey. First introduced in his short story "Runaround" (1942), they state the following:

1. A robot may not harm a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

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1. A Hatracker may not post in such a manner that is not respectful of fellow members or that incites disrespect.
2. A Hatracker shall honestly present their own opinion, except where such opinion conflicts with 1. above.
3. A Hatracker shall pursue excellence in their writing by use of this Forum, as long as such pursuit does not conflict with 1. or 2. above.

Or something like that. I'm sure you guys could improve on it.

* looks it up and find that indeed, it did not, it is just further down.

quote:

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Zeroth Law added

Asimov once added a "Zeroth Law", so named to continue the pattern of lower-numbered laws superseding in importance the higher-numbered laws. R. Daneel Olivaw is the first to give the Law a name, in the novel Robots and Empire; however, Susan Calvin articulates the concept in the short story "The Evitable Conflict". In Robots and Empire, R. Giskard Reventlov was the first robot to act according to the Zeroth Law, although it proved destructive to his positronic brain, as he violated the First Law. R. Daneel, over the course of many thousand years, was able to adapt himself to be able to fully obey the Zeroth Law. As Daneel formulated it, the Zeroth Law reads

0. A robot may not injure humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.

A condition stating that the Zeroth Law must not be broken was added to the original Laws.

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as such, i propose that we also add a zeroth rule to the hatrack forums

0. A Hatracker may not post in such a manner that is not respectful to fellow Writers or that incites disrespect of fellow Writers.

i also recommend the following changes to the three rules:

1. A Hatracker may not post in such a manner that is not respectful of fellow Hatrackers or that incites disrespect of fellow Hatrackers, except where such posts would conflict with 0. above.

2. A Hatracker shall honestly present their own opinion, except where such opinion conflicts with 0. or 1. above.

[This message has been edited by Dude (edited May 27, 2005).]

It's an age-generated culture gap. But being specific about what "respect" means to us might help.

Currently it says

quote:

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Need volunteers to look at your writing? This is the place to ask for them. Start a topic, give it the title of your story, and then post the first 13 lines of your story. Please do not post more than the first 13 lines of your work in any topic here at Hatrack.

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Maybe it could be something like

quote:

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Need volunteers to look at your writing? This is the place to ask for them. Start a topic, give it the title of your story. List the genre (i.e. Fantasy, Mystery, Horror...), the type of help you want, and the first 13 lines of your story. Please do not post more than the first 13 lines of your work in any topic here at Hatrack.

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I also just looked at the UBB Infopop website and there's apparently an option to make a topic "Important" so it stays at the top. Perhaps there could be a more detailed explanation of the "rules" for the individual areas in one of those. That way, people don't have to backtrack out of the forum to find the rules.

1. A Hatracker shall use this Workshop to pursue excellence in writing.

2. A Hatracker shall honestly present their own opinion, except where such opinion conflicts with the first law.

3. A Hatracker may not post in a manner that is not respectful of fellow Hatrackers or that incites disrespect of fellow Hatrackers, except where such posts are required by the first or second laws.

This is, after all, a writing forum, not a "respecting" forum. If there is behavior that will prevent us from becoming better writers, then of course it should be avoided. Honesty is an important quality, but is not an excuse for us to do anything that would prevent us from becoming great writers here (if you think, in all honesty, that becoming a better writer is no longer possible/desireable for you, then you shouldn't be here). Respectful manners are a good thing in any community, but they should not impair anyone's personal integrity, and they certainly shouldn't keep us from striving to be better writers.

The reason that this forum is as good as it is has a lot to do with the fact that we all focus on helping ourselves and each other with a definite task. People that don't care about becoming better writers don't have any reason to stick around here, and that means that those who do stick around have always shared a common passion. There have been a few cases of people who thought they could come in here and troll, but most of them found out pretty quickly that a forum loaded with excellent writers aren't easy meat in a written debate.

On the other hand, forums loaded with people who insist on "sensitivity" and "respect" are full of easy meat for anyone who wants to have a bit of fun at their expense. You need a dozen moderators just to handle deleting all the spurious attack posts. Everyone is always getting hurt feelings over everything that gets posted and everything that gets deleted, and getting any serious work done becomes impossible.

We're a sane place in an insane internet because we're the local dojo. Smart trolls don't come here to make trouble, and if they do we're the ones that end up having all the fun.

i think i actually agree, Survivor, except then Pursuing excellence is the zeroth rule, and it goes up from there, with being respectful of writers outside of the community being the third rule.

but in all honesty, franc was right, and we probably shouldn't use a rule system modelled after Asimovs Laws of Robotics. we've been getting quite a few new members that aren't science fiction writers, and they might be alienated by a rule-set based on a science fiction writer. so, no matter how cute it might sound, it's out of place and we should just follow some other simpler rule set... if we really need one at all...

I think that it would be most correct to say simply that we discuss writing as writing, and leave it at that. The act of writing tends to imply an audience, because it is a form of communication. So any discussion of writing will touch on issues of readability and message and so forth, basically the central issues of making something publishable (remember, the first meaning of the word is to make something public).

On the subject of rules, I don't think that having a system of three rules is absolutely going to be a tribute to Asimov any more than to anyone else. And if we eliminate the "except" clauses, then it isn't a tribute to the Laws of Robotics at all.

You folks are obsessing over the nits. Present the rules - short, sweet, and simple. Don't overwrite them. Offer a FAQ with longer info that can be read at leisure. The FAQ can include the fun stuff, e.g., where you rewrite the rules in Asimovian.

And here's the key: if the rules are short and sweet, the order doesn't matter. Credit us newbs the benefit of the intelligence to read the whole list, prioritize correctly, and realize that this is a board for writers.

Now I guess I'll go introduce myself.

quote:

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You folks are obsessing over the nits. ...

Credit us newbs the benefit of the intelligence to read the whole list, prioritize correctly, and realize that this is a board for writers.

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/me goes back and checks it out

very nice.