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Author Topic:   Royalty Realities
Kitti
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posted November 06, 2009 08:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kitti   Click Here to Email Kitti     Edit/Delete Message
If you don't read genreality, you might want to check this out - Lynn Viehl posted the details of her royalty statement online, with a discussion of what it really means to be a NYT "bestseller" in terms of income.

http://www.genreality.net/more-on-the-reality-of-a-times-bestseller

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Owasm
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posted November 06, 2009 10:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Owasm   Click Here to Email Owasm     Edit/Delete Message
I guess it would be worse to be a poet

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rich
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posted November 06, 2009 12:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rich   Click Here to Email rich     Edit/Delete Message
Sobering. I think it was Harlan Ellison who mentioned that a real writer is always "hustling", trying to get his/her work in as many places and hands as he/she can.

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skadder
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posted November 06, 2009 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skadder   Click Here to Email skadder     Edit/Delete Message
But then that woman that wrote 'The Time Traveller's Wife' got 5 million dollar advance for her second book.

I could live with that.

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rstegman
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posted November 06, 2009 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rstegman   Click Here to Email rstegman     Edit/Delete Message
Isaac Asimov once wrote that he would write a new book,
and people would enjoy it,
then they would look for his older books to see if they liked them,
And that is how he actually made his money.

He kept producing in rapid succession so checks were always coming in and people were buying his older books.

Edited to mention that he wrote 400 books, the third most in the history of man kind.

[This message has been edited by rstegman (edited November 06, 2009).]

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Kitti
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posted November 06, 2009 07:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kitti   Click Here to Email Kitti     Edit/Delete Message
A good thing to keep in mind. This is only one of her many books, which means this stuff does add up. Eventually....

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LAJD
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posted November 06, 2009 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LAJD   Click Here to Email LAJD     Edit/Delete Message
I guess that's one of the reasons why it's important to write fast and keep 'em coming.

I'm still working on that part. I tend to agonize over every word.

Leslie

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MartinV
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posted November 07, 2009 06:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MartinV   Click Here to Email MartinV     Edit/Delete Message
Speaking of Asimov...

Who were the first and second place in quantity of books?

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Robert Nowall
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posted November 07, 2009 10:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Nowall   Click Here to Email Robert Nowall     Edit/Delete Message
Here's a list of the 20 most prolific writers (so claimed)...Asimov doesn't even make the list.

http://www.trivia-library.com/c/20-most-prolific-authors-and-writers-in-literary-history.htm

*****

The more I hear of the financial side of the writing life, the more I'm glad I aimed for a high-paying job and kept writing on the side. (That I don't like doing what I do, and regret choosing it, is another issue.)

Right now I'm aiming for financial independence---retirement, pension, money in the bank---and if I can actually manage to sell something, any money I get will be gravy on top.

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LAJD
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posted November 07, 2009 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LAJD   Click Here to Email LAJD     Edit/Delete Message
So it looks like most of the people on this list are not writing in today's publishing environment. Or even the publishing environment of the last 10-20 years.

I wonder if there is a connection? Is it just too hard to get a book published now than pretty much ever before?

Leslie

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Dark Warrior
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posted November 07, 2009 08:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dark Warrior   Click Here to Email Dark Warrior     Edit/Delete Message
What is a royalty? lol

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rstegman
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posted November 07, 2009 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rstegman   Click Here to Email rstegman     Edit/Delete Message
In the thing I heard, the two other authors were in like in Hungry and they wrote strictly mysteries. At that time, one had 450 books and I forgot if the other one had 500 or 400. It had been quite a while since I had read that.
One thing it said was that because Asimov wrote on all sorts of subjects, his lower book count was more impressive.

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EP Kaplan
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posted November 07, 2009 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for EP Kaplan   Click Here to Email EP Kaplan     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah. Everything from joke books to sci-fi novels to texts on Organic Bio. Pretty durn impressive if you ask me.

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Teraen
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posted November 07, 2009 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Teraen     Edit/Delete Message
So let me get this straight. The author gets 24K and the publishing house gets 250+K? Something seems amiss with that...

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extrinsic
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posted November 07, 2009 09:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for extrinsic   Click Here to Email extrinsic     Edit/Delete Message
Publishing's standard business model is similar to other production operations, 30 percent production costs, 30 percent operating costs, 30 percent overhead costs, 10 percent gross profits. Author royalties come out of the pool of costs. And there's more to it than that, like royalty payment reserve against returns, average is 25 percent. Remaindered casecover copies average 40 percent of total print run, higher for paperbacks.

Of course, the ideal is a high advance, but if a title doesn't earn out its advance, an author might not earn as high an advance on a next title, if any advance at all, let alone a publishing contract to begin with.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited November 07, 2009).]

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aspirit
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posted November 07, 2009 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for aspirit   Click Here to Email aspirit     Edit/Delete Message
My views on money and an author's pay must be much skewed from normal. Not only is Viehl's income what I'd expect for her, but to make enough money as an author to cover all of my household's basic expenses is a dream. How many writers really believe most bestselling authors are rich, anyway?

[This message has been edited by aspirit (edited November 07, 2009).]

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rstegman
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posted November 08, 2009 04:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rstegman   Click Here to Email rstegman     Edit/Delete Message
Back in the 90s, on Prodigy Classic, One discussion pointed out with romances, that the first book got a set price. I forgot the numbers but it was not much, on the idea of $2500. Each subsiquent book got a little more. It was around the forth or fifth book one was able to start negotiating the advances.

The reason for this is that the publisher is taking a big chance on your first book. No one has heard of you and there is no proof you will sell.
This is also why there is a saying that publishers are not interested in your first book, but your second and third books. They depend on authors who can develop a following. Each new book develops a bigger following where people will watch for your work and know immediately that it is something they want to read.

To be an author that makes money in writing, you must work at it like a job, forty hour weeks, fifty two weeks a year, producing product that people will buy. The same as any "paying" job.
Most of us are part time writers and are writing as a hobby. If I put in five hours a week in my non-story idea writing, I really have my nose to the grindstone. Consider how much money you would make at your real job if you put in five hours a week at it.
There are stories of people quitting their jobs to become writers. Most of those stories are about people who never developed the skills in the first place and just decided that they will write for a profession.

The writing industry is a cottage industry, where people do the work, at home, in their spare time.

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Robert Nowall
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posted November 08, 2009 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Nowall   Click Here to Email Robert Nowall     Edit/Delete Message
I spent a lot more time on my writing before I joined the workforce and tried to make a living...

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Merlion-Emrys
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posted November 08, 2009 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Merlion-Emrys   Click Here to Email Merlion-Emrys     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
To be an author that makes money in writing, you must work at it like a job, forty hour weeks, fifty two weeks a year, producing product that people will buy. The same as any "paying" job.
Most of us are part time writers and are writing as a hobby. If I put in five hours a week in my non-story idea writing, I really have my nose to the grindstone. Consider how much money you would make at your real job if you put in five hours a week at it.


The trouble is, most people are already working a forty hour a week job (or nearly so like myself) and many already have kids etc etc so putting in 40 hours a week on writing is simply an impossibility.

Stephen King worked a regular job and wrote in his off time before making it big. He probably put more time in than many people here do, but I doubt he spent 40 hours a week writing, all the time.

I'm almost totally positive JK Rowling didn't write 40 hours a week before making it big.

There are a LOT of factors that figure into the concept of getting to the point of making a living on writing.

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JamieFord
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posted November 08, 2009 08:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JamieFord   Click Here to Email JamieFord     Edit/Delete Message
It all depends on how high you are aiming and how high you are able to achieve.

Brandon Sanderson's new book (The Gathering Storm) has a 1,000,000 initial print-run in hardcover. Even if they only sell 300,000 and remainder the rest, that's still a lot of royalty income.

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BenM
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posted November 08, 2009 08:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BenM   Click Here to Email BenM     Edit/Delete Message
I liked this guy from Robert's link:

quote:
3. PRENTISS INGRAHAM (1843-1904) 600 + books

American dime novelist who occasionally wrote a 35,000-word book overnight. He wrote 200 books on Buffalo Bill alone.


Nano-ers take note - at least to know it's possible

And it's nice to see others in the part-time category. I feel like less of a slacker now...

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Meredith
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posted November 08, 2009 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Meredith   Click Here to Email Meredith     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Brandon Sanderson's new book (The Gathering Storm) has a 1,000,000 initial print-run in hardcover. Even if they only sell 300,000 and remainder the rest, that's still a lot of royalty income.

Depending, of course, on how big his advance was. Between his name and the fact that it's the long-awaited continuation of a series (for some people), he might have had a pretty big advance.

And doesn't he have to share the royalties with Jordan's estate?

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extrinsic
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posted November 08, 2009 09:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for extrinsic   Click Here to Email extrinsic     Edit/Delete Message
Royalties are paid based on a publisher's sale price, not a cover price. An average of 20 percent of publisher sales are at 100 percent of cover price, 20 percent discounted 20 percent, 60 percent discounted 40 percent, and in book club sales and warehouse clearance sales as much as 60 percent discount.

A $25 cover price casecover title with 2,000 copy print run and 40 percent returns earns about $1,600 in royalties at 10 percent royalty rate. An average advance for the same parameters is about $1,000.

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Owasm
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posted November 09, 2009 01:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Owasm   Click Here to Email Owasm     Edit/Delete Message
RE: the dime novelist. Can you imagine writing 35,000 words a night without a computer? I can't. He lived from 1843 to 1904. that's before typewriters.

Was he a super hero? What a man.

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Robert Nowall
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posted November 09, 2009 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Nowall   Click Here to Email Robert Nowall     Edit/Delete Message
The best burst of writing I ever had was fifty thousand words of a Harlequin Romance in a week's time. I was never able to duplicate the effect in writing science fiction or anything else. (No, I wouldn't pass that book around; it was lousy.)

Writing thirty-five thousand words a night isn't impossible, even now...but you'd have to sacrifice things like second drafts and extreme revisions. And, likely, quality as well.

*****

I would imagine to draw Brandon Sanderson into writing The Gathering Storm, Jordan's estate would have had to make some kind of royalty deal with him, though, as said, likely a fraction of what he could get for an original work of his own---but, also, a fraction of a greater whole than what he could sell on his own.

More likely, a posthumous collaboration---say, something like the endless books that have come from the estate of V. C. Andrews---would involve a flat fee, no royalties, and all other rights remaining with the estate. Work-for-hire.

*****

When I worked in a (mostly-used) bookstore, we bought new books, paperbacks only, at thirty-five percent of the cover price, not directly from the publisher, but from a wholesaler. (Ingram Books.) I'm also told it costs pennies to produce a book as an artifact. So you can see the markup is quite large.

Moreover, you could return books---not the book itself, but you could strip the cover from the paperback and send that back---and get your purchase price back. So you see a bookseller need only sell little more than a third of the books bought on this deal, and he'd be in the black.

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Zero
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posted November 09, 2009 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zero     Edit/Delete Message
If the writing is more about the passion than the business angle, the lack of financial reward is irrelevant. I think, for many of us here, we aspire to publish more to reach a wider audience than to laugh all the way to the bank.

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Merlion-Emrys
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posted November 09, 2009 10:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Merlion-Emrys   Click Here to Email Merlion-Emrys     Edit/Delete Message
Yeah pretty much. Sure, I want to get as much money for my stuff as I can, and the idea of being able to write for a living is great. But really I think even most now bestselling authors...especially genre authors...may have set out with that as a desire, but I don't think it was their primary goal.

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