posted
First, I am only famaliar with Enders Game. I bought this on audible recently and just finished it. I know only of the rest of the series, nothing about them. (So, no spoilers, please)
My question involves my very intelligent, 10 year old son. He is reading above the 8th grade level and became interested in this book when it showed up on a school book club list. I told him I was currently listening to the audiobook and that he probably would like it so I ordered it in paperback for him.
I originally thought that he probably needed to read this book for other reasons. He is somewhat of a social outcast, having very few friends and seemingly plenty of (at least mentally) cruel enemies. He has developed these enemies because he lacks patience with those who aren't as smart. I saw that he might identify with Ender and recognize how allies and enemies are created among peers. I hoped this would help him navigate the social structure of his school better.
My concern is of the violence, specifically between Ender and Stillson, and later Bonzo. I wonder if there is enough distance between Ender and my son for him to be able to recogize that the situations Ender faced were both unavoidable and much more serious than he would ever encounter himself.
I don't doubt he will understand the bulk of the book, save for the heavy politics, but I just wonder about his emotional state and how he would percieve the book. Is this a good book for him? It would be helpful if any parents would like to comment. Hopefully if he likes it, we can get the rest of the series and enjoy it together. (I don't read Harry Potter, so I don't really get to discuss books with him) Are the rest of the books in the series appropriate for a 10 year old?
posted
While the rest of the books aren't inappropriate, they're a very different style and probably won't appeal as much to a ten year old.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Well ..... I found the rest of the books pretty complex. Maybe too much so for even an intelligent 10 year old. Enders game could be for teenagers or adults - but the rest of the series I felt was more aimed towards adults - lots of dialogue.
Although, 'if' any of the books were more risky than another for a youngster, Enders game is that book for the reason that you mentioned above. I still think Enders game though should be good and worth a risk - if anything to maybe give some confidence and show he is not alone. I would also highly recommed 'Enders Shadow' which is basically the same story but from the angle of 'Bean' whom was Ender's small weak sidekick whom gets through life with his intelligence and common sense.
I would say give them a go - its 50/50 how they work out and perhaps still show that someone show NOT look for trouble and to only act should trouble find them.
Posts: 13 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I loved Ender's Game so much that I thought it would be a good read-aloud book for my sixth grade students. I started reading and realized within the first two chapters that I couldn't read it to them. It was not appropriate for their age group. The language was over their heads and the violence was inappropriate. It just made me uncomfortable. However, I didn't have a problem giving the book to my 16 year old son to read, and my 18 year old daughter, and my 20 year old daughter, and . . . Posts: 277 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Yeah, the rest of the books are definately slanted towards adults. I mean, going from killing two boys with bare hands to the extensive discussion of philotes in Xenocide is a pretty big leap.
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posted
My 12-year-old son who is constantly singled-out by gang members and bullies is reading Ender's Game now. He has been telling me about it as he is reading (I have not read it) and he understands what is happening to Ender and why. My son is able to see that what Ender is encountering and how he handles it is not the way that he (my son) needs to handle his own situation. I think that talking about it helps.
I was going to have him read the rest of the series, but I am doubting that I will at this point.
Posts: 58 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I wouldn't just hand it to him and say, "Read up, son! This is great stuff!"
Why don't you try reading it WITH him, a chapter a night and talking about it as you go - with you doing most of the listening except at those critical points where you need to make a moral point.
Otherwise, no - I wouldn't let him read it. I was 18 when I first read it and it had a very big emotional impact on me.
I am reading the first Harry Potter with my 9-year old - but I won't let him read #2 . . . through however many she writes . . . until he is much older - after reading #2 on my own, the content struck me as definitely for older audiences.
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posted
While Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind may be a little over a 10 year old's head, Ender's Shadow may be an appropriate follow up to Ender's Game as it is the same time period but through Bean's eyes. There again, you have Bean dealing with potentially violent situations.
I just reread and saw that Dystran suggested the same thing. I agree. As far as your concerns go, I would say talk to your son about the material you find questionable. I know that seems like the logical and easy answer, but it is. I've heard OSC state that he never intended Ender's Game to be a young adult book, but it has helped many young adults cope with feelings of isolation. I can see it in my students who latch on to the books when I read them aloud and I can see it in my friends who love the book. If anything, the feelings of remorse Ender feels after the violence he commits should be a good point of discussion, neh?
Also, to comment on Shan's remarks: you know your son. Can he handle it? Some children can, some can't.
posted
Well, I don't know, because I read the book when I was about 15. But, thinking on it, I have a younger sister who is 12 right now, and I'm not sure that she'd quite understand, unless I talked it over with her.
My advice is to read it along with your son and talk to him about it. Not only will he understand better, he will feel special because you took the time to talk to him about it. It'll be fun because you're there. You could read Ender's Shadow as well, but I agree that Speaker for the Dead, etc. will definitely go over his head. I thought that if you had only read Ender's Game, you could still appreciate it, but I suggest that you at least read the rest of the Ender saga, as it's quite interesting and thought-provoking.
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posted
My brothers read it when they were . . . 11, I think? Assuming that they read it right after I did (I was 13 when I read it.), they would have been right around that age. One loved it; his twin thought it was boring. The one who loved it didn't enjoy the sequels very much at the time(The one who thought it was boring obviously didn't read the sequels.). I loved the sequels, and read them both in one weekend (this was back before Children of the Mind came out, although barely).
I think it really depends on the child. There probably aren't many ten-year-olds who are incredibly intrigued by the philosophical style of Speaker and Xenocide, but I'm sure they exist somewhere. If your child is not one of those yet, however, I would suggest waiting a few years to give him the sequels.
As others have mentioned, the Shadow series might be better for a ten-year-old. They are faster-paced and less philosophical. Although Speaker for the Dead is a better (and, for adults and some teens, a more enjoyable) book, Ender's Shadow is once again from a child's point of view, so it would probably be easier for a child to identify with the protagonist.
Posts: 3801 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Um, I might be just misunderstanding what you're saying, but when I was ten, my mom didn't give me books to read, I read what I wanted. If I'd read Ender's Game and liked it, I would have read Speaker for the Dead, my parents wouldn't have to give it to me.
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posted
Was that to me? By "give" I really meant suggest. But then, I never used to follow my mother's suggestions, and she had to force me to read Dune in sixth grade. For which I have been eternally grateful.
Posts: 3801 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Ya I agree Ender's Game and the shadow series are pretty good for younger readers as long as you don't mind a little vilonce. But the rest of the Ender Saga is defintaly more for older teens and adult's I first read the sequals when I was like 15 and they where kinda over my head (ecspecialy Xenoside)and i recentally re-read them and i still had a little trouble with them and i'm 18 and read alot of of books but with some thought and explanations they can be OK for anyone but most won't appercate them till the late teens.
Posts: 397 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think that Ender is repeatedly introduced as a character who is not normal. His intelligence and skill make him almost super human. Thus, in some ways, he's akin to a super hero. If your son can handle watching Batman or X-Men, I don't see why he would have trouble with Ender. All of these characters are isolated because of their abilities and that's how people relate to them. While Ender is easier to relate to because Card let's you feel like you're part of his thought process, I think its as easy to understand that Ender and his situations are fantasy as it is to understand that of Batman and X-Men.
As to the reading age, I read Ender's Game for the first time when I was 12 and loved it. I then read the rest of the series and I liked it too. It's been a while, so I can barely remember the rest of the books, but I know I enjoyed them at the time.
Hope this helps.
Posts: 51 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Wow, such great responses. This board is great, you are all so helpful. I did plan on reading the rest of the series myself although that is of lesser concern to me. I have the opportunity to discuss his reading almost always right after he reads a section, so I will proceed that way. Since I just finished it last week, it will still be fresh in my mind and can discuss with him what he just read each night. Thanks so much.
Posts: 3 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I'm not a parent, but I'd like to comment anyways, take it for whatever you think it's worth.
The only problem I would see with a 10 year old reading Ender's Game would be the almost positive approach towards the two instances of violence that you mentioned, primarily because the character of Ender is such a likeable and 'I wanna be just like him' one that some people might take it too far. And although Ender has some pretty good reasons for doing what he does in these situations, they would never pass in the real world, especially the Stilson case. So, in my humble opinion, it really all depends on what type of person your son is, and how easily he is influenced, and what the likelihood of him taking this book seriously is. You know him better than anyone: Make the decision based on your own judgement.
As for the rest of the saga, I really don't believe a 10 year old would find them interesting, aside for the parts where the people are ripped open and have their intestines neatly arranged inside-out. Everything else is really philosophy and religion.
Posts: 80 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:The only problem I would see with a 10 year old reading Ender's Game would be the almost positive approach towards the two instances of violence that you mentioned, primarily because the character of Ender is such a likeable and 'I wanna be just like him' one that some people might take it too far.
But Ender obviously hates the violence in himself. I don't think there's a positive approach at all. Each time he is violent he hates himself for what he has done. I think a 10-year-old can pick up on that.
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posted
I agree with Ophelia. While Ender commits violence he never likes to. It is an important part of his story how he feared and hated that he would turn into Peter. The violence isn't made into a good thing, and I know a ten-year-old can pick up on it.
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posted
I was in my early 40s when I first read Ender's Game (just a couple of years ago, thanks ). It was a revelation when I read it. I kept finding myself wishing that it had been around when I was 10 years old and going through the experience of being way too smart for my own good for my age, being fat, and between the two having very few friends. The book would have helped get me through that experience, I think.
I suppose, however, I wouldn't be a good guide to go by for whether a 10-year-old is ready for the book - I was reading on 12th grade level and checking books out of the adult section of the library by the time I was 7 years old, which horrified my teachers and most other adults. My teachers' reactions to me did not help on the making-friends front, by the way, as my teachers viewed me as extra help for the slower kids, which did not endear me to the other kids in my classes.
Still, if I had a 10-year-old, I would suggest Ender's Game to him or her. I think Ender's reaction to his own violence would serve to steer kids away from that sort of solution to any problem.
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posted
Ender's Game should appeal to your son, but that is not the problem. As for the rest of the series, if he enjoys Ender's Game, then he can make the decision himself on whether or not he enjoys the rest of the series.
As it has been mentioned before, the book can be perceived as promoting violence. Even with Ender's hatred of the violence he commits, he understands that it was necessary. Your son needs to be told that other children are no threat to him. He needs to be informed that the violence is not proper, and even more than that, it is not needed. If he is smart, I am sure he has already found many different ways to remove himself from situations which may enflame into violence.
The simple truth is, that if you raise your child properly, he can be exposed to nearly anything and overcome it. Just be the parent you are, and if you feel it is necessary to speak with him about various content within Ender's Game , then do. I personally believe it would be a good idea. The same as many others here, I first read the novel when I was your son's age.
Posts: 23 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
This is obviously a complicated matter. I would say that it depends... your son is actually facing problems which only a few kids face, which makes him, as you said, a social outcast. There are lots of ways to deal with this issue, and I believe he'll find his own, soon or later. The Ender series can either help him or hinder him, depending on the way he understands it : if he compares himself to Ender and acts as if he were somehow "better" than the other kids of his class (or acts even more like it, if he was already doing so), then I'd say it won't help ; because it would only further his isolation. But if he truly understands the mechanisms developed in the book (how to make friends, how to be accepted) and if he understands that he shouldn't do the same as Ender when he uses physical violence against Stilson or Bonzo ; then, it would be a good idea to make him read it.
So, basically, you're the only one able to answer your main question ("is the violence in the book dangerous for my son") because you're the only one of us knowing your son well enough to know the way he'll react to it.
That's the tricky thing with smart children : you mustn't underestimate them and treat them just like kids (of course), but overestimating them ain't good either, since they're still, after all, kids ; and there is still a childish part in them. It's this childish part that might be influenced by the violence of the book.
The rest of the series is of a different tone, but it might be boring for him.
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Gnome > Because it can be good when you want to be isolated, and when it's for a short while. Being forced into isolation by the hatred, jealousy, or otherwise aggressive behaviour of others isn't good, at least in my opinion. And especially not for a 10 years old kid.
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posted
I can understand what you are saying. Although, not everything that comes from experiencing something bad is horrible. Within all pain, an inherent wisdom is found. Self-sufficiency is something everyone should learn before relying on others, especially in relationships.
Children are quite possibly the meanest beings on the planet to one another. More than likely, those children being mean to the isolated one have nothing to offer him or her anyway. I agree that a certain sense of companionship is healthy for anyone, but isolation is far from evil.
Posts: 23 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I had already written a long message about this but my CPU bugged and I had to restart it, whithout posting. I'll try to type it again, but I'll surely forget an idea or two.
First, I wanted to apologize for the quality of my English, and say that I hope it's not TOO bad
Then... about this isolation thing. Nietzsche said "What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger". He was right about this : it's true that there are lessons to be learnt from even the deepest pain and the harshest periods of life.
But you can learn whithout suffering - pain is not necessary. The idea that you can learn through pain is true, but you also can learn through happiness. The trick is : you can always learn, from almost any important event that occurs in your life (be it good or bad).
You can also learn from anyone. I disagree with u when you say that
quote: More than likely, those children being mean to the isolated one have nothing to offer him or her anyway
Actually, the isolated one has surely lots of things to learn from those children : things that you can't find anywhere else (for instance, the sheer happiness of feeling loved by one's friends), and other things the isolated kid simply doesn't know. Thinking you can't learn anything from a given person isn't simply thinking you're superior to that person, it's being overconfident in yourself, thinking that you somehow know everything this person already knows - which seems impossible.
And, last but not least, I don't think isolation is good for a 10 years old kid because his age is the one when a child begins to truly shape the personality of the individual he'll be later during his life. And I don't really think hatred, jealousy and loneliness are good feelings to have at this time of life, because even if you survive to it, even if you learn from it, some kind of bitterness never leaves you.
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posted
Age doesn't neccessarily define a person's ability to handle certain topics. I think it depends on the individual person. In my personal opinion the Ender and Bean series is good for everyone. Posts: 35 | Registered: Nov 2001
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What I say is from past experience. I too when I was 10 was extremely isolated and hated by fellow classmates. I had only two good friends in my grade. One of whom had lyme disease and was only at school maybe 1 every other week and the other I never saw because he was in a seperated building. My class preyed on me because I was the smartest in the class as wellsas probably the weakest and least likely to retaliate. It was at this time that I read Ender's game with the advice of my parents who had both read it. I found that the violence in the book did not affect my decisions in life at all. Instead, while I felt a real connection with Ender, it was not one of that I wanted to do harm to my tormenters. I did want to get them to stop but never acted with violence. That may have been because of my small stature at the time but the idea is the same. Depending on what level your son connects with Ender it could have very different results. I myself found that Endre's Game was inspiring to me. I think it would be wise to read it with your son as stated before by someone(sorry forgot your name). I would strongly advise if you are worried about the violence, to read Ender's game rather than Ender's Shadow first. Ender kills for defense while the killing in Ender's shadow is a bit more gruesome and has some ideas that may be a bit to much for younger children. I would STRONGLY advise that your son read this book AS LONG AS he understands that violence will only make things worse. In real life theres no international fleet to say its all right you killed him and most likely any violence would result in more isolation to him and more violence to him. Also, I know from experience, things get better. Just work hard at making friends and try not to seem to make people think that they're dumb. I hope your son gets through the period of isolation. Its always hard
Posts: 34 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Just adding my voice to the choir, for whatever it's worth...
I read EG and SFTD when I was thirteen, understood em' and loved em'... (for me, at least, there was a HUGE jump in my understanding of the world between my eleventh and thirteenth years...as there should be every year, with luck *grin*)
Like everyone else said, it really depends on what your son is like, what he can handle, etc.
I think that reading the book with him and discussing the scenes you have moral qualms with would be very helpful.
posted
I was 33 when opened Enders Game I'm 36 now and i've read about 7 OSC books. Am i the oldest guy here? I know i'm the newest.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Rush Fan - No, definitely not the oldest. However, I'm discovering that many Hatrackers are very young, high school and college students. I was in my thirties when I read Ender's Game, too.
Posts: 277 | Registered: Apr 2003
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). It was a revelation when I read it. I kept finding myself wishing that it had been around when I was 10 years old and going through the experience of being way too smart for my own good for my age, being fat, and between the two having very few friends. The book would have helped get me through that experience, I think.
